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    Your Elvenar Team

Allowing more than 1 builder on a Build or Upgrade

able99

Well-Known Member
Has anyone ever thought of using more than 1 builder on a build. If a build or upgrade takes 24 hrs for a builder, perhaps 2 builders assigned to project could do it quicker. Maybe not in half the time, but perhaps with second builder it could be completed in 16 hrs. The second builder assigned would work at 50% speed.
This ability could even be a technology unlocked in later chapters where build can take several days. There could also be an AW that increase the speed of the 2nd builder as it is upgraded.
The ability to use more than 1 builder on a project makes additional builder more valuable. I bet Inno would sell more builder if players weren't concerned that they would sit idle much of the time.
 

able99

Well-Known Member
You are probably right about that, with a 50% production rate on 2nd builder, Inno could lose on the bottom line.
Perhaps if initially 2nd builder speed up process by only 10% - 20%, ( not much different than neighborly help or time reduction instances) and then increased by 5% as Builder AW is upgraded. Inno could then sell more builders, and still get diamond sales from inpatient players. Just got to figure out the right balance. I think it just adds an extra dimension to the game.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I think it just adds an extra dimension to the game.
An extra dimension means something different, and/or, more interesting. Using multiple builders makes certain tasks faster, not particularly more interesting.

The question is, what does the game gain from it. I can't think of anything it does other than make the game easier, even if it's only a little bit easier. The players' goal is not the designers' goal. The player wants to do things faster. The designer wants them to log in more often and spend more time inside the game, potentially spending money.
 

able99

Well-Known Member
I've been thinking about how to make the feature more attractive to developers and came up with the following...
Multiple builders technology could be introduced in Chapter 6 - Dwarves where it needs to be researched and activated. =More time spent in game. Win for Inno
Once Technology is activated player has the right to upgrade the builder hut which grows in size to house extra tools and requires attachment to road. Many players have it tucked away somewhere and now has to move it to a road. More real estate required = more time in game. Win for Inno

Only 3rd builder can be used as additional builder on project. Builder is acquired the same was as its done now, except there is more incentive to get 3rd builder. More players will want 3rd builder since less fear of him being idle. Win for Inno

At this point builder's hut can me upgraded by 5% efficiency but upgrade requires granite and copper to upgrade. Win for Inno.

In each subsequent chapter Builder Hut can be upgraded to increase efficiency of 2nd builder by 5%. Cost of the upgrade is paid in special goods of the chapter. More time in game. Win for Inno.

Incentive for player is at a certain point increase in speed of builds using 2nd builder makes game more fun as less time is spent just waiting for builds to finish. Currently the reduction in time for builds are in luck of getting time reduction coin. That stays but now some control is given to player. I'm sure concept has to be refined not to lean to far to Inno and still give player good value.

The added strategy dimension in my opinion will make the game somewhat more challenging but more fun. Less time in idle waiting for builds to finish.

I welcome comments and suggestions on improving this concept for players and Inno...
 
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DeletedUser3297

Guest
None of that sounds good. I would rather use time instants if I want something completed faster. We do not need our builders hut to grow, that already happened to our trader when we thought it would never change. When you get into higher levels, you need special guest race goods for everything, then you need mana for everything, then you need seeds for everything, then you need sentient goods for everything and they need seeds to make! That's enough dimension right there...

There are already a lot of time instants available to win in the game that provide a better benefit than your proposed builders change. That means if a change to the builder would happen, than time instants would have to be "rebalanced" Sorry, bad idea.
 

DeletedUser20396

Guest
but what about people who have surpassed that place in the research book?
 

DeletedUser3297

Guest
but what about people who have surpassed that place in the research book?

Since this game is still in development, the research menu has had some significant changes in the past. A Magic Academy tech was added after people were past it, Ancient wonders were added after people were past those. The training grounds was added after people were past that, same with the dryad, etc. The list goes on. Anyway, what happens is your research menu automatically becomes locked until you go back to whatever chapter that added the new thing and you must complete that new research item. The good thing is, if those new research items are located in guest race chapter, they never will require guest race goods because many players would be past that point and it would harm the player base to force players to re-build past settlements.

Edited to add pic:
SVmMW8t.png

That is an early version of the research menu for a Elven chapter 3 city. Notice how there is no Ancient Wonders of the Tempest and how the military techs have been re-structured.
 
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Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I welcome comments and suggestions on improving this concept for players and Inno...
It looks stronger to me. You should probably polish it, then put it in a poll here, to get more comments and see if it has support. Then the path is to put it on Beta forums for discussion, where it can have more discussion, then if it seems to have support, a forum mod there will put a poll on it. If it attracts 20 votes, with more than half in favor, it will get forwarded to the devs.
 

able99

Well-Known Member
I appreciate your opinion kayleegrrl, and you convinced me its a bad idea to have the builders hut grow. I played the game only to the middle of Dwarves and not familiar with the challenges that come in later chapter. That is why I l appreciate hearing form more advanced players like yourself, so the concept can be improved.
Instead of having the builder hut grow, consider a Builder Guild AW that will allows you to utilize a 2nd builder on a project. You can choose to build the AW or not, but if you choose to build it, perhaps you no longer need the Builders Hut, as an added benefit to player.
The Builders Guild AW would be upgraded just like every other AW.
You can always rely on winning time instances when you need them, or have a second option where you put yourself in control and take out the element of luck. There is no need to "rebalance" everything. Its just another tool you can use to shorten idle wait time, or choose not to use it. By all means you are free to use time instances if that is your preference.

Would introducing a Builders Guild AW address your concerns, kayleegrrl, or is something else needed to improve the idea.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
As long as the builder hut upgrade is optional (and/or optional tech), there's no reason for it to be a problem for players. Whether it gets larger or not is a question, as is whether or not it requires a road connection. those who want the ability to use multiple builders accept the upgrade, those who find the upgrade irritating don't complete it and don't get to assign multiple builders. Choices are good, as they allow for different play styles.
 

able99

Well-Known Member
I only started playing about 6 months ago and not familiar with the evolution of the game. I put the idea out as a concept and know more advance players could shoot holes in it or improve it. I welcome both.
Ashrem, clearly you are more familiar with the path an idea take from concept to development and testing. I thinks its a good idea and worth considering and improving.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
The path is a theoretical one. Once it's passed to the developers, the only guarantee is that it is available for them to look at. There is no promise they will actually look at it, or do anything. All i can say is that if you see upgradeable buildings as a core part of an event, and/or an event based around constructing stonehenge in your city, it might be as a result of an idea that I passed through the hoops in the distant past.

(Edit to add: I think it took close to three months, and that was with pretty broad support._
 

able99

Well-Known Member
I first broached the idea of a 2nd builder on a build with RosehawkAKA and she said she never heard it suggested before, but liked the idea.

When I discussed it with my archmage at Gondor's Grace, it was agreed the idea had merit.

I will check this post over the next several days to see if people think the idea is good and supported. Thank you for everyone's comments
 

able99

Well-Known Member
In discussing the idea of allowing a 2nd builder on a project with more people, I now believe the best way for INNO to implement the idea would be by introducing a new AW.

A new item would be added to the Research Tree that I'll call the Builders Guild. I leave the location for the Research, the number of KP to complete the research, and the cost to activate to the research to others and TBD. I'd suggest somewhere in the Dwarves chapter since I needed places to put kps while waiting for resources. Clearly if its ever implemented INNO would make all those decisions.

Once the research for the Builders Guild AW is activated, the player can decide whether or not to build the AW, and where to place it. Hopefully INNO designs a cool building for this new AW.

You will need to collect shards and fill the ring before it can be built, just like any other AW. It would be nice if INNO allows us to sell the Builders Hut once the new AW is built, freeing up a little real estate, but again if ever implemented its INNO's decision.

For players who already passed the location of the Research, they could simply go back and complete the research. Nothing else changes and it would be very similar to what was done when INNO added the Needle of the Tempest AW.

Speaking of the Needle of the Tempest, it starts out with a 6% benefit and grow as its upgraded. The Builders Guild could have similar parameters. If an extra builder is idle, the player can decide to utilize the 2nd builder or to save the builder for a different project. The player could still use Time Reduction instances if one is available. Its all players style of play. As the Builder Guild AW is upgraded, the benefit % increases and it becomes more valuable, especially in later chapters where build times are longer.

Thank you Ashrem for your comments, It encouraged me to think about it further and including ways it could be implemented without disrupting the flow of the game. Definitely the parameters need to be balanced properly which I cannot determine. That can only be done by developers at INNO.

I believe many players would consider building a Builders Guild AW. All are welcome to comment. Let me know if you would consider building a Builders Guilds AW if it existed. Remember, it will be a cool building....

I don't know how to further advance this concept. If you like the idea, I'd appreciate help in advancing it, and ways to improve it If there are flaws, how would you fix it. Thanks
 
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Ashrem

Oh Wise One
AWs are a significant space user, and there are already difficult choices for people. Tying up a bunch of space just to get a boos on construction times might appeal to some people, but I think applying the AW mechanism to the builder hall code would also present unique challenges the devs might not be interested in undertaking. My gut feeling is that an optional upgrade to the builder's hall is more likely to fly with the player base than one more AW to have to fight to squeeze in. If you want to pursue that, you might try figuring out an average size for AWs, then run a poll separately on the order of:
Would you build an AW of size XxY that allows you to assign extra builders to get a percentage savings on time of construction jobs.
Personally, it wouldn't interest me in the least. The up-gradable builder hall I'd probably vote for.
 

able99

Well-Known Member
There are so many styles of play, I doubt any new idea would interest a lot of players, because people are creatures of habit and would prefer things stay the same. I don't think a favorable poll result interest INNO unless its their poll. The only way INNO would consider implementing any new feature is if they saw the benefit to them.
If I suggested very generous parameter for players, lots of players will vote for it. I cant deliver the feature so it remain a pie in the sky pipe dream, and the idea will fade.
If on the other hand INNO becomes aware of the concept and sees it as a benefit for them ie, players stay in the game longer and they don't loose diamond revenue then maybe its considered. The AW implementation I describe was meant to be appealing to INNO. They should already know how to implement an AW.
Currently to keep players reaching the end of the game requires INNO to develop more races and in reality most players drop out before reaching the end, so few players get there to use it. They would get more man hours of play by implementing an extra AW early on, even if most people pass on building it.

I really cant take the idea any further, Your are welcome to poll it and carry it further. I am too new to the game and lack credibility. When kayleegrrl trashed the idea early on, there was no way for me to challenge her as I never experience the later chapters. I re-thought the way to package the concept based on your comments. I truly appreciated your input and comments.

At this point I'd just like to just sit back and see if any other players look at this post and offers suggestion to refine the idea. Its not a debate on which idea is better, but rather a brainstorming to make the game better.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
It's a process. You shouldn't get discouraged, but if you do get discouraged so easily here, then you're going to have a rough time presenting the idea to beta players. They will dissect the suggestion pretty quickly if there are flaws.

Inno is never going to pay any attention to anything here. That has been established for a long time, They also don't pay any attention to the beta forum. The beta forum moderators are able to put ideas in front of the developers if they achieve a set level of support (20 or more votes, with the majority in favor).

I'm suggesting a poll, here, just on that one part of the idea, not the concept as a whole, so that you know if it interests enough players. If you can't get a minimum of 10 positive votes for the idea here, there's no point incorporating the idea of an AW into the suggestion, because unless you can get people to vote for it there, Inno is never going to see it, no matter how good it is from their point of view.

Me running a poll would be pointless, because I don't support the idea of an AW for builder-boosting. I'm just one person, so is Kayleegrrl, though one with probably more experience than both of us put together.. The poll will need someone who likes the idea to answer questions and encourage the idea. If you believe in the idea, you should do what it takes to ensure it has support. Once it's on beta, you'll have to do that, and knowing the answers to as many as possible of people's questions before it gets there will increase the chances of success.
 

Xelenia

Ex-Team Member
You should revisit the idea once you have advanced in the game further able99 . It is not every day I see someone present an idea, defend the idea, and provide an alternative solution when the suggestion is challenged. Use this platform to perfect the idea, consider the flaws and then move it to the beta server for further polishment. I think both ideas are good concepts, neither is forcing anything on anyone....on one hand, you have the option to pay premium money to expand your builder size (not forced on anyone...) and on the other hand you have free approach of expanding the feature of your builder (AW are a choice). Every AW in my city are choices made solely with my own decision (not the game), even though I want to kick my pillow when a new guest race comes out because I need space :p
 
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able99

Well-Known Member
Xelenia, Thank you for your comments. You are right, I do not have enough experience with the game to advance the idea further at this point. I've been too busy just learning as I build my city, that I've never checked out beta server.

I am not discouraged as Ashrem thought, only unfamiliar with the polling and results needed to get noticed. I finally saw a poll in the forum yesterday, and he clarified what the expectation should be, so that helps, but getting it into beta is still a mystery to me.

I stick to my belief that the concept needs to stew a little for more players to notice it and to think about how it would effect them. That's why I said I wanted to sit back and see what happens.
I'm sure I do not have all the answers, but I believe left to this community it will get polished. I'm not giving up, just letting it sink in a little. While it simmers, maybe I'll check out beta to see what that is all about.

As a senior Forum Moderator, do you have access to INNO. I'd love to know if anyone there thinks the idea has any merit. If it does in the form of an AW I bet the building design will awesome, and players will want it just for the esthetics. :)
 
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