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    Your Elvenar Team

Just wondering why we tolerate cheaters?!

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DeletedUser6189

Guest
IDK ... maybe it depends on the server.

I haven't delved into it too much, really, but while the top cities on my server (Elcysandir) are very impressive and obviously spent a lot of money to get where they are ... they aren't really the ones hitting the top of the tourneys every week. And with some exceptions, the scores that the top players manage to put up are quite reasonable.

I also don't see the fellowships at the top of our server as pushers, as they have several members that regularly end up near the top.

I think the reality of money driving rank is real, and I don't really have a problem with that. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, but it's hard for me to imagine that all of the top players on my server are somehow cheating to get where they're at.

Maybe I'm just naive that way.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
I dunno... Having level 30 military wonders has got to have an impact.

Would it really, though? I said that these people would be top scorers regardless. A lot of top performers also will push themselves to varying degrees depending on what the rest of the server (their competition) is doing as well. Having high-level military AWs merely makes it 'cheaper' in the end (via fewer troop losses), and if these are people with large stores of diamonds already then it's really not helping as much as some want to think.

To be clear, I do agree that this behavior is pretty dishonest and not in the spirit of the game, but I don't think it's causing huge imbalance regarding tournaments.
 

DeletedUser20491

Guest
I believe that if anyone is cause server troubles and such like bug inflicting, diamond, goods, coins, supplies cheats then I wouldn't consider that allowed. Because everyone else worked for it. That's why there is diamonds in the game cause if you want to produce your production faster then you do that by paying or winning diamonds, then spending it.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Having high-level military AWs merely makes it 'cheaper' in the end (via fewer troop losses), and if these are people with large stores of diamonds already then it's really not helping as much as some want to think.
30% more troops with 30% more health that do 30% more damage. I'd say a full-on cheater can do 50% more tournament than a legit player.

Note: I only care because rank chasers care, and they pay for upgrades to Elvenar.
 

DeletedUser20396

Guest
since they are spending money, Inno doesn't want that income to go away, so they allow it. What exactly does it matter to us? We're not doing it, We're not condoning it, but we can't to a licketty split about it.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
One possible issue that goes against the "it doesn't affect me" position:

Inno is replacing blueprints with Royal Restoration spells.
You will still get these from tournaments.
Currently, the developers are deciding how many RR spells will be in each chest in the tournament.

Are the devs looking at how many players are getting 10 chests and using that to decide how many RR should be in each chest?
If so, then every cheater, especially those in an entire fellowship of dummy accounts getting 10 chests is really skewing the numbers.
 

DeletedUser8993

Guest
It seems to me that anyone who ranks in the top 10 of any of these worlds clearly spends thousands of dollars to play, so I'm not sure why a player with money would bother to have a 100 accounts just to gain rank?
You're right that they do spend thousands. Tens of thousands, even. Inno promotes that by ensuring that the best items cost diamonds, and that everything steadily gets more and more expensive in terms of space, time, and gold/goods/whatever required. Just stating the obvious for anyone who hasn't figured that out yet. ;)

However, there are players who will do anything to be at the top in ranking. If they can't earn it or buy it, they'll steal it. They typically have 8-10 or more alternate accounts (some even have full Fellowships of alts) and they set them up as "farm" cities, where they usually concentrate on producing two things... troops and usually one type of goods. Most you can tell right away are not cities that grew organically through game play. All magical buildings, all premium culture, and row upon row of armories and factories to maximize output per square.

By concentrating on pushing the goods they produce back and forth (transferring members from one FS to another temporarily, or carefully ensuring that members of one FS are conveniently neighbors of members of the other) they're able to exploit tournament and map expansion by catering for maximum KP, as well as getting 10 chests every tournament. They push the resulting KP to their main accounts, driving their Ancient Wonders FAR beyond what you could reasonably expect a player with a single account to achieve. They use diamonds to end the upgrades quickly and hide the evidence, but it's there for anyone who spends any time at all looking and is good at detecting patterns.

Obviously that's not fair to people who don't want to buy diamonds and don't want to resort to cheating, but still want to play the game and succeed. If you've got a cheating player whose ALTERNATE accounts are regularly placing in the top 20 in tournament and soaking up all the ranking points even though their game scores are only in the 10-30k range, how is that fair to someone who may have put in the work to achieve a legitimate game score of 200k+ but can't even hope to score that high in tournament because they don't have the massive amounts of goods to cater?

When tournament started on Sinya Arda, 2,000 points was a good score and 3,000 was stupendous. Now 3,000 points won't even get you in the top 50, and there are players who regularly post scores of 6,000-7,000 points or more... from accounts that couldn't possibly produce that level of goods or troops to cater or fight. I've even seen one break 10,000 points recently. Explain to me how you get 10,000 points in tournament with the resources of a single account and with the troops you're able to amass since the the last tournament only a few days previous. There is only one explanation for that, and it's not diamonds. Not directly, anyway.

Everyone should know by now that online games aren't really free, and that to get the best of whatever, you're going to have to resort to in-game purchases. That's the business model, after all. But if you're going to have rules that prohibit using multiple accounts to push another account up in ranking, then stick to those rules and don't just ignore them or change them because it benefits you financially. Everyone should be playing on a level playing field with known rules, and if they choose to spend money to advance, they have that choice. Players shouldn't have to choose to cheat to advance, or compete against those that do.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
30% more troops with 30% more health that do 30% more damage. I'd say a full-on cheater can do 50% more tournament than a legit player.

Note: I only care because rank chasers care, and they pay for upgrades to Elvenar.

This first part is going to be pretty heavy on semantics, but I do have to correct you here. Training speed bonuses are up to 100% (double) speed on the applicable building, and attack power increases are up to 40% bonus damage for the applicable unit type. You were correct on the health bonus though!

Anyway, these bonuses don't turn your army into an unstoppable killing force; there are still many battles that will either incur heavy losses or simply be unwinnable if you try to fight through them (especially on auto-battle). This does swing the other way though, in that sure, the bonuses do occasionally allow one player to win a battle that a player with lower bonuses would not, but this is pretty uncommon because they're only helpful when they allow you to either survive an attack that would have otherwise wiped out your squad, or more importantly, when they allow you to defeat an enemy squad in one fewer attack than before (dropping from 3 down to 2, or especially from 2 down to 1 attack needed to wipe out an enemy is huge). Again, this doesn't happen very often.

It's still better to have the bonuses than to not have them, but to be completely honest the only benefit I feel most of the time is the extra training speed and a lot of that also has to do with the fact that not all tournaments are created equal and neither are the units. Military bonuses are especially not going to help in something like the scrolls tournament, where I'm still capable of losing battles even in round one where the enemy's numerically weaker than I am simply because light melee units pretty much suck especially when they have to go up against a retaliating heavy range unit that's capable of wiping them out in 2 shots and taking 6 or more to bring down themselves. It's the one tournament I tend to just sit out of because it's the one tournament where I'm catering over half the battles just in the first round and I don't see someone with a level 30 Victory Springs faring meaningfully better.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Training speed bonuses are up to 100%....
Actually, it's way more than 100% extra troops, closer to quadruple!:eek:
The SSS, FA, DBW, and Toads at level 30 are kicking out an extra 1,900 stacks every tournament cycle.

Without wonders: 1100 stacks per cycle
With L30 wonders: 4,100 stacks per cycle

Still don't see a meaningful difference?
Almost 4x the troops doing 140% the damage with 130% health not significant?:confused:
You're hard to impress
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
Anyway, these bonuses don't turn your army into an unstoppable killing force; there are still many battles that will either incur heavy losses or simply be unwinnable if you try to fight through them (especially on auto-battle). This does swing the other way though, in that sure, the bonuses do occasionally allow one player to win a battle that a player with lower bonuses would not, but this is pretty uncommon because they're only helpful when they allow you to either survive an attack that would have otherwise wiped out your squad, or more importantly, when they allow you to defeat an enemy squad in one fewer attack than before (dropping from 3 down to 2, or especially from 2 down to 1 attack needed to wipe out an enemy is huge). Again, this doesn't happen very often.

Let's look at the squad size ratio in tournaments:

1 star: 85%
2 star: 100%
3 star: 115%
4 star: 130%
5 star: 145%
6 star: 160%

Getting just the Attack and HP bonus from wonders at level 30 (+40% attack +30% HP) is like shifting the difficulty down by 2 to 3 stars. 6 star fights at the max wonder level are just a little more difficult than 3 star fights were without any of the wonders (square root (1.6/1.4 x 1.6/1.3) = 1.186).
 

ET-inf3rno

Well-Known Member
When tournament started on Sinya Arda, 2,000 points was a good score and 3,000 was stupendous. Now 3,000 points won't even get you in the top 50, and there are players who regularly post scores of 6,000-7,000 points or more... from accounts that couldn't possibly produce that level of goods or troops to cater or fight. I've even seen one break 10,000 points recently. Explain to me how you get 10,000 points in tournament with the resources of a single account and with the troops you're able to amass since the the last tournament only a few days previous. There is only one explanation for that, and it's not diamonds. Not directly, anyway.

The only way I could go above 6000 TP is using crafted tournament buildings, with 100% HP bonus and even with those I needed to use time boosters to not run out of army. For 10000TP I'd need to stockpile goods and army at least for 2 weeks even with that kind of HP bonus.
For a 30k city in chapter 4 doing 3000TP is a very strong push, it cannot do more than 2000 per week on the long run normally. For 6-7k TP it needs to stockpile goods for at least a month, doing 10k TP means at least 1.5 months...

Anyway, these bonuses don't turn your army into an unstoppable killing force
Well with 100%HP bonus my golems were pretty much unstoppable. The level 6 fights felt like level 1 fights normally. There is no big difference if you have level 30 temple of toads and have 1-2 month to gather troops plus you have the HP and damage bonuses by default from your AWs. I could do a lot more than 6-7k TP per week with these kind of resources. But that is not a surprise, usually talentless people are cheating, who cannot reach more than med skill. I played first person shooters competitively too. We had the same pattern there, a med skill cheater clan with aimbot almost won clanbase Eurocup, and we were going for real money there, not just some 1st place on a ranking board.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
Most of the top 10 players have 150-450k ranking points from AWs (not counting the throne), yet it is very hard to reach 1000KP per week if you play the game normally. So either they have a 3-9 years old city in a 2 years old world, or something is very wrong here... I wonder why admins let this continue. Probably I played competitive games too much, that's why I cannot tolerate shameless cheating while others do...

Let me point you to this thread: https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/how-is-this-not-pushing.7704/

The mind boggles, I know.
 

DeletedUser6189

Guest
You know what I've always wondered .... How in the world do you push an account in another fellowship? Don't you have to be a neighbor or a fellow in order to donate KP?
 

DeletedUser20396

Guest
Well I am sorry, I guess I didn't know All the details. Ya'll should be in administration. How many of ya'll are even of the age to join the team here on Elvenar? I ain't, so I can't do anything. Nice points though guys. uh, and girls. :)
 

DeletedUser188

Guest
Don't you have to be a neighbor or a fellow in order to donate KP?
Nope you can donate a KP to any players wonder in your world as soon as you unlock the AW tech
Also you can even donate KPs to accounts that share the same IP address
In 2012 FoE devs introduced great buildings (AWs) and had this same problem (pushing)
One of the 1st things they did was STOP THE DONATIONS FROM THE SAME IP ADDRESS
Players that played fair and didn't push but played from same IP were mad but they survived
A simple fix like that would help to solve this problem
They must not think its a game breaker or they would have done something about it by now

You do not have to be neighbors to donate kp to an AW; that's the sticking point.
Thats not the problem the problem is
These players have been allowed to play different accounts on the same world,same server, from the same IP address
This is something they allow in this game but not in FoE (unless you ask for permission)
 
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