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    Your Elvenar Team

Need help with basics

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
I do personally think Light Melee needs some adjustments. If you are facing a battle that contains nothing but archers and mages (or just one or the other), Light Melee will usually mop up pretty nicely (though they'll still suffer some losses due to their opponents being able to get hits on them before they can get into range to attack). Usually they can win against a match that has just one Heavy Ranged counter unit. It's when you start throwing in more than one Heavy Ranged that they start really struggling.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: If you have a bad experience with Light Melee, don't let it discourage you from combat in general.
 
I do personally think Light Melee needs some adjustments. If you are facing a battle that contains nothing but archers and mages (or just one or the other), Light Melee will usually mop up pretty nicely (though they'll still suffer some losses due to their opponents being able to get hits on them before they can get into range to attack). Usually they can win against a match that has just one Heavy Ranged counter unit. It's when you start throwing in more than one Heavy Ranged that they start really struggling.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: If you have a bad experience with Light Melee, don't let it discourage you from combat in general.

Just kinda hard to learn the combat mechs if the units don't actually live up to what the game SAYS they should. Makes it like super hard (if not impossible) to trust ANYTHING it says about combat- which is why, I guess, I've been so confused. :)

Thanks for your help, everyone. :)
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Problem with a cheat sheet is it only works so far. You can create one that will work unit verse unit but most fights aren't just one unit as the enemy. That is why unit type is the key to learn and understand. Picking the best unit within a unit type will improve your game but just knowing the correct unit type is the key to starting. The closest thing to a cheat sheet for tournaments is the combat 101 graphic, train a specific barracks unit type (only 1 option in barracks) for each tournament and use it, if it loses then negotiate. You will learn with experience from there.

In terms of light melee they still do what they are supposed to. But the simple rule is that range is better than melee as they get to hit the melee troops at least once before they take any damage. Then scrolls and dust tournaments have an enemy combination that is particularly tough. This just means higher losses then other tournaments but not that the key unit doesn't do what it is meant to.

The range rule is why if you ask people to list tournaments by difficulty (while there is some variation) those lists start with tournaments that use ranged units and end with those using melee (including heavy melee).
 
Problem with a cheat sheet is it only works so far. You can create one that will work unit verse unit but most fights aren't just one unit as the enemy. That is why unit type is the key to learn and understand. Picking the best unit within a unit type will improve your game but just knowing the correct unit type is the key to starting. The closest thing to a cheat sheet for tournaments is the combat 101 graphic, train a specific barracks unit type (only 1 option in barracks) for each tournament and use it, if it loses then negotiate. You will learn with experience from there.

In terms of light melee they still do what they are supposed to. But the simple rule is that range is better than melee as they get to hit the melee troops at least once before they take any damage. Then scrolls and dust tournaments have an enemy combination that is particularly tough. This just means higher losses then other tournaments but not that the key unit doesn't do what it is meant to.

The range rule is why if you ask people to list tournaments by difficulty (while there is some variation) those lists start with tournaments that use ranged units and end with those using melee (including heavy melee).

Well if it works for longer than the pentagon "this is stronger, so use it" - which has NOT worked for me- it'll be a better start. :) MAYBE by the time I figure out WHY the cheat sheet will cover the gap long enough. :)

So the combat 101 graphic... how do I use that? Do I use entirely, or nearly entirely that ONE unit type for the type of tournament? So like Marble ones I should use almost entirely or just sorcerers? For crystal ones, use only or nearly entirely Ents?
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
So the combat 101 graphic... how do I use that? Do I use entirely, or nearly entirely that ONE unit type for the type of tournament? So like Marble ones I should use almost entirely or just sorcerers? For crystal ones, use only or nearly entirely Ents?

Yes, for those very new or struggling that is what I recommend. You won't win everything all the time, so cater if you lose. You should start winning the majority of the time. The next tournament is dust so go 5 of light melee (cerberus are particular good for dust but swords/axes are fine if it all you have) for each fight. Do note that dust is one of the hardest tournaments so you will suffer a lot of casualties (more comparatively then other tournaments).

As you get more comfortable with the combat you will then want to focus on when and what unit to bring against the counter unit. This will help you win more fights and lose less unit. The other thing will be learning which is the best of the 3 units, like cerberus for the dust tournament. But for now just keep it really simple, 5 of one unit type for each fight.
 

NightshadeCS

Well-Known Member
One other tip I have for those starting out getting a handle on the fighting: if you autofight, you will do better with 5 of the same unit rather than mixing units. For example, it looks like maybe treants and sorceress match up well against the enemies. Don't do it! Send out 5 treant or 5 sorceress, you will 9 times out of 10 do better.

Disregard if you are more advanced. It can still be generally true, but the right mix at the right time works well later on.
 
One other tip I have for those starting out getting a handle on the fighting: if you autofight, you will do better with 5 of the same unit rather than mixing units. For example, it looks like maybe treants and sorceress match up well against the enemies. Don't do it! Send out 5 treant or 5 sorceress, you will 9 times out of 10 do better.

Disregard if you are more advanced. It can still be generally true, but the right mix at the right time works well later on.

Well I TRIED that today- with the following battle (where my swords were "strong vs" ALL of the enemy, AND I had bigger squad sizes)... and I LOST BAD.

This loss despite it saying my swords were strong vs both light ranged and mages... So, better squad size (waaaay better) and ALL strong vs... and I LOST HORRIBLY.

I so don't get it.
 

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Yes, for those very new or struggling that is what I recommend. You won't win everything all the time, so cater if you lose. You should start winning the majority of the time. The next tournament is dust so go 5 of light melee (cerberus are particular good for dust but swords/axes are fine if it all you have) for each fight. Do note that dust is one of the hardest tournaments so you will suffer a lot of casualties (more comparatively then other tournaments).

As you get more comfortable with the combat you will then want to focus on when and what unit to bring against the counter unit. This will help you win more fights and lose less unit. The other thing will be learning which is the best of the 3 units, like cerberus for the dust tournament. But for now just keep it really simple, 5 of one unit type for each fight.

Yeah, tried that (see above)... just gonna cater I think.

Clearly combat does NOT always follow the rules the game is claiming they do. Cuz there's NO reason why strong vs should lose (I did that twice, with about the same results, too) like that. It literally says "the rules don't matter if the game wants you to lose" to do that. I'm so so frustrated and confused.
 
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@AlaskanSunflower I would bet your loss was entirely because you had a bad map to fight on. No matter how much advantage you have, if your troops cannot get across the map to the enemy quickly enough, you will lose.

So it all comes down to luck of the draw... no matter what, the game will always have a chance to just toss out the rules and you have no chance to win?! That's a garbage mechanic. Honestly, if the combat rules are set they should be used, not thrown out when it wants to just randomly say "nothing else matters cuz you'll lose anyway". :/

And that was one of THREE times I tried that. So I guess once it chooses to hose you, it's over? Given the consistency of losing over and over with stronger troops vs weaker ones (the pentagon says so anyway), and that this is not "one battle here and there" but consistent. I've posted screen shots of at least two where I had better units than the enemy, and my squad sizes were bigger- and the ONE answer ppl can say for losing is "the terrain" or "the map" was against me. So basically, best I can determine... EVERYTHING is all about map... everything else is only secondarily mattering...

How do you look at the combat page and know if it's a good, bad, or neutral map? Does scouting somehow deal with that? What makes a map good or bad? And can you do it without having to get into the "you must be a master tactical chess-like player" to have a chance?!

Honestly, THIS is why it's so stupid hard to make sense of combat. The rules can suddenly NOT apply and not make sense, and there is no way to know until you lose when you shouldn't - and it doesn't TELL YOU why you lost... so you have no idea... it's stupid confusing to have the pentagon at all if they're gonna just override it randomly for no reason with hidden things.
 
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Mykan

Oh Wise One
There is more going on in that screenshot then you might realise. While the combat can be broken down reasonably simply it does not mean you will win 100% of the time. There are things you learn with experience as you get to understand the system better. Personally I don't find the map issue makes that big a difference for 99% of my fights (made up %, real % is likely lower than this). But again there are ways to swing things in your favour, like wonders.

Your squad size is not miles above there's, you need to remember they have 8 squads to your 5. At a guess it was likely an even fight in terms of squad size, Round 2 of tournament? The other trouble and sadly there is nothing you can do about it at your stage of the game is you have 2 star troops and they have 3 star troops, so their troops are better quality before factoring in your wonders or boost buildings. Certain enemy combinations are also just plain harder then others :)scroll::magicdust: fights).

Personally I would have gone with archers or cerberus for that specific fight. Ranged enemies always have an inherent advantage over close combat ones and a map can enhance that advantage. Cerberus due to high movement or archers (also good against mages) can help to counter the range issue. Granted if it was a map with a bottleneck (bad map) then cerberus would still have suffered high losses.

One option to help you learn, and is easier to do with world map fights (due to time), is to post some screenshots on the forum and see what others would use for that fight. See if people would use the same combination as you, you may even find a few different arrangements from different players. What chapter are you in and do you have any wonders to help with combat? Wonders are your way to increase the quality of your troops, very useful when the enemy does outnumber you.

In terms of maps that are bad, some maps have a bottleneck in the terrain. But this can be good or bad depending on the fight. If you have close combat troops (heavy and light melee) and the enemy is all ranged then this is bad, they can sit behind the obstacle and just pick you off. On the flip side if you have the range (archers, mages in particular) and they are all close combat then you can pick them off and win a fight you might not have otherwise. Unless you manual fight or scout the map you are just never going to know how the map played into it. Sometimes it isn't the map but the AI and again that can work both ways.
 
It was NOT round 2, it was FIRST ROUND. I've YET to win ANY combats- even with all the units being "strong vs" EVERYTHING the enemy has and having bigger squad sizes... What REALLY irks me about that last one- literally strong vs EVERYTHING they had... and it wasn't even close. It was a massacre. That tells me "strong vs" does NOT matter much at all... cuz it can't. There's NO WAY strong vs should be totally owned by "weaker vs" units. That, honestly, implies "weak vs" is better than "strong vs" - and that makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

Archers were even or weak against some of those. How would using some weaker units vs the enemy be better than using stronger vs units?! That kinda rejects the entire "strong vs" thing, doesn't it? I mean, if "weak/even vs" is better sometimes what the heck does "strong/weak" vs even really mean anymore?!

As far as terrain- again... this is a hidden thingy you can't see until you're screwed. It's like a "gotcha" to toss out ALL rules and info and just make you lose. It makes it stupidly hard to learn how to do anything if you can't rely on the information being RIGHT.

I am in Dwarves in one city and Orcs in the other- and wonders are STUPID HARD to get if you can't get runes- which is my SERIOUS problem. I can't get most of them cuz I am not getting the runes to- and I'm told, you win battles for higher-level tourney stuff, you get them-... well that's a crappy position to be in... you can't win cuz the rules don't matter and you don't have the thingies built to win... but to win them, you need to win combat first. How the heck does that work?!


So, when I go into combat- how do I KNOW to choose "even/weak" vs RATHER than "strong vs". Cuz you literally suggested NOT using even vs earlier in this thread. How do I know when to do that and when not to? Is there a thingy on that battle set up screen (that you said it shows more info than I realize- what exactly other than the enemy units and squad sizes does it show?!) to let me know, "this map will suck and wreck the game rules, so do something that the rules would NOT usually have you do"?! How do you know that?!
 
With a level 11 Tempest needles thingy in this world.
Literally, I can't think of a BETTER unit to use in this fight?!
Again, FIRST round tourney thing.

Let me guess... "terrain was bad"? Cuz like for real... there has GOT to be a way to work around that. Cuz this is retarded.
The game literally says these units are best used against light ranged and mages. And they get SLAUGHTERED.
 

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Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
No, @Mykan and the numbers of enemy troops tell me this was for the 2nd star in that province, not the 1st star, and for them to all be 3-star troops, you were probably on at least your 5th or 6th province of the tournament. And again, if your melee troops cannot get to the enemy ranged troops quickly enough, your troops will lose, even if they have the advantage. Even if your advantage means the enemy will do half their normal damage (random number, not actual), 8 of them versus your 5 means they will still chip away before yours get close enough to hurt them. Also, if all your barracks troops are 2-star, that means your cerberus from the Training Grounds are also 2-star. You should always use them against a large group of enemy mages, since they are better against them and they have a lot more movement range than other light melee and can close the gap and win much more often.

Also, Needles of the Tempest boosts your light ranged units, not your light melee. It will not help you in these fights.
 
After losing that fight even, I just went and used stuff to cater them- a few diff zones, before I ran out of dust. You can see I've done just ONE round- just now, cuz I can show you they're all timed out so I can't do another level on them yet. That WAS first round. And it was like the second zone cuz the first had lots and lots of troops (like 6-8 groups vs my 5).

The pentagon thingy said they're best against light ranged AND mages. So why wouldn't they be good against both? I don't understand that.
 

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And again, if your melee troops cannot get to the enemy ranged troops quickly enough, your troops will lose, even if they have the advantage.

So, basically, don't use melee and just stick to ranged units?
Does the include mages? Are they ranged?
And does that apply when they aren't "strong vs" on the pentagon?! I guess it does cuz they mauled my pigs despite being "weak vs" them.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I think you may be trying to take in too much to process at one time, but for now: Let's just confuse you further, lol.
I look at it like this: barracks troops are generalists; troops from the Training Grounds and the Mercenary Camp are specialists. You can drill down (click the blue info icon for any unit) and see the details about what percentage attack/defense boosts the various units have. Since we're talking about light melee, I'll use those for an example: Sword Dancers are decent against both Light Range and Mages. From the Training Grounds you get a Light Melee specialized against mages: Cerebus. Their movement range is also longer than the Sword Dancers and that helps them get to enemy mages that can strike from 5 hexes away (like the Abbot and the Thornrose Mage). From the Mercenary Camp, you'll get a Light Melee specialized against light range troops: Drone Rider.
Your Ancient Wonders:
Needles of the Tempest provides an additional attack bonus to your Light Range units. Sword Dancers are a light melee unit, so they do not benefit from that bonus. Your Archers(barracks) Dryads (Training Grounds) and Rangers (Mercenary Camp) are your light range units.
I would recommend the Martial Monastery if you don't have that already. It will provide a boost to all your units' health. That won't increase their attack, but it will make them last longer in a fight.
Also: if you are having these problems in the Scroll and Dust provinces, I'd just cater those until I got more of the specialist units and/or promotions for your barracks units. These 2 province types have an enemy mix that is really tough even when you have 3 star specialists. Cerebus will take out those enemy mages, but they are vulnerable to the enemy Heavy Range (Steinlings and Orc Deserters) that will kill them easily. These provinces can be beaten, but there's a lot more losses even when you win a fight. I think you'll find it easier to fight the Steel and Elixir provinces (ymmv there are different opinions about this, for me those are the 2 with the least amount of troop losses).
I came into this game having never played a combat game in my life; was planning to cater/negotiate everything. It took a minute for me to begin to understand how everything works, but I now fight 90+% of all encounters. If I can do it, anyone can!
 
So, question... if "strong vs" is NOT gonna actually help a melee unit kill ranged or mages... HOW are they "strong vs" them?! Seriously, cuz that totally screams "use these units". The pentagon dealie says to, the game popup says to, Mykan's forum help thingy says to, even he (above) said to... and they got destroyed. What makes sense of that?!

And maybe it IS a lot to take in at once, but the game doesn't really allow for any alternative, does it?! It says "here's the combat system- but disregard everything we're telling you, cuz we will with hidden things and nonsense that ruins the stong/weak vs rules anyway".

And yes, I have been catering things, but barely get half my zones into stars cuz it's SOOOOO expensive. And in one city BOTH scrolls AND dust are boosted thingies and I NEED to do these tourneys to actually get those things better. Kinda a screwed up situation if the game says "screw you and our rules" for these two then give players both of them. It's like an automatic handicap.

So, seriously... how do you KNOW when to NOT use "strong vs" units?! If the game and pentagon and combat basics help thread ALL say to use those- when do you know to toss that all out the window?! What on the battle screen can I look at and say "Oh, they have units that are weak vs EVERYTHING I'm putting out to fight them, so they're gonna slaughter me"?!

Worth noting, too, the cerbs is EXACTLY what the gems of knowledge page recommended for beginner and intermediate doing auto-fight. They say those alone or those and banshees (Which I've not trained many of, so I'll have to correct that shortage in the future to use them). But the site literally says to use those. How do I know when to NOT actually use the actual BEST unit for the battle I'm facing?!
 
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Mykan

Oh Wise One
So, question... if "strong vs" is NOT gonna actually help a melee unit kill ranged or mages... HOW are they "strong vs" them?! Seriously, cuz that totally screams "use these units". The pentagon dealie says to, the game popup says to, Mykan's forum help thingy says to, even he (above) said to... and they got destroyed. What makes sense of that?!

Strong verse only means those units have some sort of advantage over the other unit in terms of better offense, defensive or both. learning unit type verse unit type is the basics. Understanding those advantages is another layer of complexity, sometimes your unit is a glass cannon and knowing that and how to use that takes experience.

There are:
  • Squad size comparison
  • unit type
  • unit strength weaknesses
  • research technology - 1,2 or 3 star units
  • unit stats - lots of these and they all have an impact especially movement, range and initiative
  • Different units of the same type - which is specialised against what
  • Wonders and temporary boost buildings
  • ranged verse melee
All of this comes into play but trying to understand that too fast is like trying to run a marathon when your still learning how to stand up and walk.

And maybe it IS a lot to take in at once, but the game doesn't really allow for any alternative, does it?! It says "here's the combat system- but disregard everything we're telling you, cuz we will with hidden things and nonsense that ruins the stong/weak vs rules anyway".

Its not disregarding it but you need to learn the basics and give yourself time to gain experience. There is more going on in combat than you first realise. As you follow the basics and cater when it fails you will start to learn the situations and the reasons why things didn't go as expected. You will also start to learn when certain combinations or choices are better than others.

And yes, I have been catering things, but barely get half my zones into stars cuz it's SOOOOO expensive. And in one city BOTH scrolls AND dust are boosted thingies and I NEED to do these tourneys to actually get those things better. Kinda a screwed up situation if the game says "screw you and our rules" for these two then give players both of them. It's like an automatic handicap.

You might come to appreciate how lucky you are. I have those same boosts and am super grateful as they are the most useless relics in the game to me, once you hit 500 of them there is basically minimal need to get more of them. For those unlucky enough not to have these boosts that are chasing a continual supply of them for their sentient boosts and spell making. They need to be constantly hitting those tournaments where as you will eventually be able to just ignore them.

So, seriously... how do you KNOW when to NOT use "strong vs" units?! If the game and pentagon and combat basics help thread ALL say to use those- when do you know to toss that all out the window?! What on the battle screen can I look at and say "Oh, they have units that are weak vs EVERYTHING I'm putting out to fight them, so they're gonna slaughter me"?!

Worth noting, too, the cerbs is EXACTLY what the gems of knowledge page recommended for beginner and intermediate doing auto-fight. They say those alone or those and banshees (Which I've not trained many of, so I'll have to correct that shortage in the future to use them). But the site literally says to use those. How do I know when to NOT actually use the actual BEST unit for the battle I'm facing?!

In some of those screenshots you are deciding the best unit based on your knowledge and experience. If you ask forum members I bet many would recommend different units as the best because they have more experience and know what is best. They are aware of all the different elements that factor into a fight. The little picture graphic is a start but you need to learn why those pictures appear and more than one unit will provide the same pictures. Having a picture doesn't make them the best it only means they have some sort of benefit. The person behind much of the combat information on gems of knowledge does hundreds if not thousands of encounters every week, that is a massive amount of experience. There are many forum members that would also do similar, you are free to post your screen shots and ask them what they would do and tap into that knowledge.
 
In some of those screenshots you are deciding the best unit based on your knowledge and experience. If you ask forum members I bet many would recommend different units as the best because they have more experience and know what is best. They are aware of all the different elements that factor into a fight. The little picture graphic is a start but you need to learn why those pictures appear and more than one unit will provide the same pictures. Having a picture doesn't make them the best it only means they have some sort of benefit. The person behind much of the combat information on gems of knowledge does hundreds if not thousands of encounters every week, that is a massive amount of experience. There are many forum members that would also do similar, you are free to post your screen shots and ask them what they would do and tap into that knowledge.

That last one, the 2-star Cerb vs 1 star light ranged and a 2-star mage was based on the forums here, the pentagon, the game telling me cerbs were good vs BOTH of those units, and the Gems site- which DIRECTLY said for beginner and intermediate players to use Cerbs.

I literally did what the game, these forums, and gems page said to use.

I am just confused as to how 5 units of 2-star "strong vs" units could lose to 4 units of (3 1-star 1 2-star) units ALL weak vs the ones I used. Cuz like according to the info I've read, that should not have happened.

And in the gems chat, they said "terrain" or cuz the weak ones get to hit first cuz of range... making them stronger than the strong vs (despite the gems page saying to use ONLY cerbs or cerbs & a mage- which also lost bad). So I am at a total loss how the game suddenly makes "weak vs" better choice than "strong vs" and when I should choose to use a weaker unit vs the enemy to beat that enemy. Honestly, if I have to do that- why does it even bother with "strong vs" if that is actually gonna lose? That means they are actually NOT stronger vs them.

Its not disregarding it but you need to learn the basics and give yourself time to gain experience. There is more going on in combat than you first realise. As you follow the basics and cater when it fails you will start to learn the situations and the reasons why things didn't go as expected. You will also start to learn when certain combinations or choices are better than others.

So "learn the basics" - like "follow the pentagon"? "use stronger troops vs weaker ones"? Cuz that's what the guide post thingy said to do, and as I said above, I did the units the gems pages said to use... all that experience and info I FOLLOWED and DID what was instructed.

I am confused about WHY it didn't work. What was wrong with what I did?! I used stronger star and pentagon stronger units vs weaker ones. HOW does that equal losing so badly?!

I can't learn from the info if I can't understand WHY it doesn't work the way the game info and forum info and gems page says it should. I don't know where the failure happened at, so IDK what to avoid doing again? Clearly it's not "ignore the forums, gems, and guide advice" right?! But I DID do what those said, and it didn't work- so where did I go wrong? How do I see that in the results to know better next time?!
 
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