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    Your Elvenar Team

Wonder Society (Spreadsheet assisted wonder program)

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Wonder Society
A program for levelling wonders

As a part of my guide I discuss different methods of levelling wonders. One of those methods is a spreadsheet assisted approach. Every so often I receive a message asking about how such a group works and if there is a template, here it is
Template

Elven gems has written a fantastic section about the wonder society, they also have an updated Template where they have added in some macros to assist with the maintenance of the document.

This system has been used for years by various fellowships on different servers so it has been tried and tested many times. The concept originally comes from Forge of Empires with an even longer history there and thanks goes to Katwijk for bringing the concept here. His original posts are at the bottom of this post.

Why have a wonder society
  1. Very quick way to level wonders
  2. Easy for members of the group to participate
  3. No minimum or maximum requirements
  4. Not effected by time zones or hours of play
  5. Can donate even if you have no wonder or your wonders are at rune stage
  6. Guaranteed KP bonuses for all participants
What do you need
  1. Person willing to run the spreadsheet
  2. Members willing to join - works with 3 to 4 people but is better with at least 6-8
  3. People willing to record donations and rewards or willing to wait for someone to record them.Only a short wait depending on timezones, hours of play and helpers. For the groups I have been in this is normally only a couple hours.
Please avoid comparing this to other types of programs, that can be done in a different thread, This thread is about how someone would run such a program and the merits of it.

@Katwijk posts explaining how a spreadsheet system would work.
Katwijk Analysis of KP clubs - This also includes an explanation of a spreadsheet method
Katwijk Explanation of a spreadsheet method

Edit: Please note that some fellowships use a spreadsheet but change the rules for a wonder society, like penalising people for self-donation. These are not a wonder society but a spreadsheet assisted KP pool and are unique to the variations applied in that pool.
 
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Mykan

Oh Wise One
You can use any group of people to do this. Communication is key which is why many do this in a fellowship as it is easy to communicate to the group. I have done this with players from different fellowships, it just takes a bit more to set-up the in-game message.
 

GroomerWoman

Active Member
I have a question on this. Once you level up a wonder do you leave the KP contributions on the sheet? The directions say to add the wonder back in at the top of the sheet but doesn't say what happens to the figures of the wonder that now needs to be upgraded.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
I have a question on this. Once you level up a wonder do you leave the KP contributions on the sheet? The directions say to add the wonder back in at the top of the sheet but doesn't say what happens to the figures of the wonder that now needs to be upgraded.

The completed wonders with a record of the adjusted contribution remains in the document, in the example the wonders with status Xn (n = numeric). This is needed as it retains a record of the amounts people have received during their membership. If the list got very long and cumbersome you could "archive" the old wonders but would still need a line to represent those amounts. Generally hiding the wonders after a while is easiest.

As the wonder completes we also add a new line for the new wonder/level. For example a level 3 golden abyss is completed we record it and then mark it as X (completed) and move it to the bottom of the list. We then add a new line for a level 4 golden abyss for that person with 0 contributions.
 

GroomerWoman

Active Member
The completed wonders with a record of the adjusted contribution remains in the document, in the example the wonders with status Xn (n = numeric). This is needed as it retains a record of the amounts people have received during their membership. If the list got very long and cumbersome you could "archive" the old wonders but would still need a line to represent those amounts. Generally hiding the wonders after a while is easiest.

As the wonder completes we also add a new line for the new wonder/level. For example a level 3 golden abyss is completed we record it and then mark it as X (completed) and move it to the bottom of the list. We then add a new line for a level 4 golden abyss for that person with 0 contributions.
Thanks.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
The spreadsheet has had an update. Thanks to @Ainsley Warchafsky for some help and ideas.
  • KP distribution has been automated - There is an override option for chests and rounding if needed.
  • Added columns for total reward chests and any remaining chests not coming to members
  • Added a message row for easy copy paste into a fellowship message
    • Just copy the rows you want and then paste them into your fellowship message. The formula works on A as the targets and then orders your reserves if you are using codes like B1, B2, B3, etc. It can handle up to 10 reserves without needing to change the formula
For easy communication it is usually best to have one or two thread in your fellowships marked for this. You can use one thread for noting targets and communication or use 2 threads. One with the targets and instructions on upgrading and a separate thread for communication from people about wonders they would like to be focused on.
 
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DeletedUser7510

Guest
My fellowship is currently investigating other Wonder donation options (we currently have a swap thread and a rotation group) and after reading your post here and your slides on the Gems of Knowledge website I still have an area of confusion and/or concern.

It's regarding the KP redistribution and how this constitutes "fairness".
I guess I'm not seeing yet how this precisely correlates with a given contributor's balance, pile-on, etc. - something that may be clearer if/when I investigate the spreadsheet itself.

But it *sounds* decidedly unfair.
Take the case of a schlimazel who never gets a chest despite donating roughly the same amount as other members: not only do they not get an instant to put them in better standing with donations for the next target, but the redistribution would seem to give them less standing to BE the next target.

I CAN see how it could be an equalizing/stabilizing factor, preventing sudden changes. And not being completely "fair" does not mean the system is not a good one. Am I just confused over a matter of semantics? Or is there something big/obvious that I'm missing?
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
But it *sounds* decidedly unfair.
Take the case of a schlimazel who never gets a chest despite donating roughly the same amount as other members: not only do they not get an instant to put them in better standing with donations for the next target, but the redistribution would seem to give them less standing to BE the next target.

It is actually this scenario that sets the society apart compared to some of the other options. It is possible in other options to donate KP and never get a reward chest and therefore never get a reward. In the society the redistribution of KP means the person who never got a chest still gets a reward and that reward is equal to everyone else. Let me use a simple illustration.

Person A donates 100KP and gets top prize for 30KP. We know wonders give approx 20% of research cost as rewards so the society recalculated this as
100 KP (donation) - 30KP (reward received) + 20KP (20% of donation) = 90KP (in society). While this appears less, the person has 30kp in instants so 90 + 30 = 120KP received for top prize.

Person B donates 100KP and gets no prize, the society recalculates this as
100 KP (donation) + 20KP (20% of donation) = 120KP (in society).

Every person gets an equal KP reward based on the reward offered by the game. So if they never earn a chest they would still earn the 20% reward due to the society and therefore level their wonders faster. The society makes the KP reward absolutely predictable for every person for every wonder. I have rune this program in numerous fellowships/worlds over a number of years now and I have never seen a person never get a chest reward.

Some stats from one of my current societies.:
628 wonders levelled at an average of 1.7 wonders a day. The group has earned 17.1% KP reward (the society started when KP rewards were only 10%), since the change in reward it has earned 19.8% KP returns. Each member has earned between 19 and 20.6% returns, the variation is because some donors are invested in wonders that are yet to finish, or donations to wonder with outsiders providing KP. For 600+ wonders that is pretty consistent and even/fair returns for everyone.
 

DeletedUser7510

Guest
Thank you for the quick reply and taking the time to present a detailed example.

For what it's worth, statements like point 6 in your original post ("Guaranteed KP bonuses for all participants") and others there and in the GoK slides had me thinking you were somehow manipulating how chest rewards were recorded and used in calculations. I guess when I see "KP bonus" or "KP reward" I think chests. :)

I probably could have figured things out looking through the formulae on the spreadsheet, but at least this way others with my comprehension peculiarities might be saved some confusion. Thank you again for taking the time to respond!
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
No worries. I think Gems of knowledge has a slide on it too. The sharing of the KP rewards is a key part to the society as it creates the fairness across the group as well as the predictability. You also find between this and tournaments the runes just flood into your inventory ;)
 

verygr8ful

New Member
I know I am late to this party, but I was in a FS where this was run and it was wonderful! I have been lobbying for it to be in a different word/fs I am in and they finally have agreed (its taken over a year). I am in charge of it and will be running it, and I do not feel like I have a good grasp, at all, on running this. I have read the info several times, but wonder if there is someone willing to walk me through it and help me to get it running? I owuld appreciate it immensely, I think its a great program.
 

Arayla

Well-Known Member
I know I am late to this party, but I was in a FS where this was run and it was wonderful! I have been lobbying for it to be in a different word/fs I am in and they finally have agreed (its taken over a year). I am in charge of it and will be running it, and I do not feel like I have a good grasp, at all, on running this. I have read the info several times, but wonder if there is someone willing to walk me through it and help me to get it running? I owuld appreciate it immensely, I think its a great program.
We use the spreadsheet version that is published on elvengems and love it. https://elvengems.com/ancient-wonders/wonder-society/

We got ours started last year and have upgraded almost 1000 wonders so far. I'd be happy to walk you through it and answer any questions. I'll send you a PM so we can connect.
 

Deleted User - 4679164

Guest
Hello,

I would like to continue the society in our community, unfortunately I have no contact person in the German forum. I hope I am in the right place, because the system is great and I would like to continue it.

I have already read the gems of Knowledge stuff, but I still have some questions.

1. what do I do if someone has extended his wonder without go?
2. new wonders are always added? via the zz template?
3. why aren't all participants in the list? Should they be? a reported miracle is missing in the tempalte i have?!
4. what does an X in the status mean?
5. what do I do with former members? delete or hide them?

Can I continue to ask questions here, if there are still any?
Many greetings Clarissa
 

Chriger

Member
Bumping this post for @Clarissa83 , and have a couple questions of my own. We're looking at trying a Wonder Society. Though it'd likely only be ~10 people in fellowship, and the rest would keep using chains for now.

How do you handle existing KP in peoples wonders when you start the society? If you count it all, it'd unfairly help people with a lot of KP in other peoples wonders, and hurt people with KP in their own wonders.

I was thinking you could track KP before starting the society, and then not count it when the wonder is finished. So if they had 50KP in a wonder pre-Wonder Society, then added another 50KP when the wonder was finished in the Society. They'd only get credit for the last 50KP.

Or is there a better way to transition from KP chains to a wonder society? Thanks :)
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Hello,

I would like to continue the society in our community, unfortunately I have no contact person in the German forum. I hope I am in the right place, because the system is great and I would like to continue it.

I have already read the gems of Knowledge stuff, but I still have some questions.

1. what do I do if someone has extended his wonder without go?
2. new wonders are always added? via the zz template?
3. why aren't all participants in the list? Should they be? a reported miracle is missing in the tempalte i have?!
4. what does an X in the status mean?
5. what do I do with former members? delete or hide them?

Can I continue to ask questions here, if there are still any?
Many greetings Clarissa

Hi Clarissa, by all means ask your questions here. I had accidentally unwatched this post so I missed the questions. I have fixed that now.

  1. If the cancel the upgrade then the donations can be spotted. If it has completed upgrading it is too late. In that case I do my best to reconstruct what the donations were. It may require a spare column for the unidentified amounts so the owner still has all kp removed from their balance. This is a fairly rare situation and is more common when people are new to a society. A great way to minimise this is if you use a chat program like discord or facebook is people can add screenshots of the wonder in there. It allows any player to help, keeps a record of donations and allows for faster upgrades.
  2. I am not sure I am fully following this question. The template row has all of the formulas so it is an easy way to add a row and copy the template in and then change the details. You can use any existing row but need to be sure any existing information was changed, template is already blank
  3. All participants should be in the list, it takes time to add in more people. The second part I am not following, is there an error?
  4. The top left cell has some comments for status to explain it. You can use anything for status as long as you and others understand the meaning. I personally use different status codes so the X for me is something different to the template.
  5. With former members you just hide them. You still need the information in their columns to keep the spreadsheet in balance and for the history of donors.

Bumping this post for @Clarissa83 , and have a couple questions of my own. We're looking at trying a Wonder Society. Though it'd likely only be ~10 people in fellowship, and the rest would keep using chains for now.

How do you handle existing KP in peoples wonders when you start the society? If you count it all, it'd unfairly help people with a lot of KP in other peoples wonders, and hurt people with KP in their own wonders.

I was thinking you could track KP before starting the society, and then not count it when the wonder is finished. So if they had 50KP in a wonder pre-Wonder Society, then added another 50KP when the wonder was finished in the Society. They'd only get credit for the last 50KP.

Or is there a better way to transition from KP chains to a wonder society? Thanks :)

Hi Chriger, great to hear your looking at using a society. 10 people is a good number and it will be fine to run the society alongside the swap threads.

When starting a society or if a new person joins it is very common for existing kp to be in the wonder. I just ignore the kp and those donations so they do not get counted. If those people win rewards those are also excluded and the distribution tab allows you to adjust the chests to allow for this. If a person has contributed before and during the society and earns a chest you will need to make a judgement call as to whether that is included or excluded. Once the society is up and running these sort of situations become less common

Your example is exactly what I do, only the kp donated once it is a target gets counted.

When starting a society you occasionally have to make some judgement calls but it starts to get simpler and balance out. If your also running a swap thread we would allow people to count for bother, they are separate programs but can work side by side.

Edit: I realised my template in the OP is an older version, so I have linked the elven gems template. I also highly recommend reading their site about how it works and why.
 
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Deleted User - 4679164

Guest
Hi Mykan,

many thanks for the answers. That helps me a lot.
And sorry for my englisch... it´s not the best :rolleyes:

And i overtook the society from another person without some help, only the explatations in the excel sheet (explanation) and from "Elvenar Gems of Knowledge"

1. unfortunatly the wonder was built up two times and its nearly 3 week ago, so no way to reconstruct the donations.
Yes, the member is really new in our community... But what do i do now? Ignore his wonder? Only Update it to the new level and thats it?

2. I think i got it by my own, but the question was, if i have to put all new wonders in a new row? so copy the template row and fill out the name, wonder and details
.
1587204355200.png

3. No, but you answerd my question, all people have to be in the list. I think the person, who did it before only forget to put it in.

4. ah ok... i didn´t knew that it is changeble.

5. Ok :)

I´m very glad that i have found somebody to answer my questions and i can go on with the society.
But i´m sure i will come back, the weekly overview is not yet clear for me, but i try :cool:
 

Deleted User - 4679164

Guest
Hi Mykan,

many thanks for the answers. That helps me a lot.
And sorry for my englisch... it´s not the best :rolleyes:

And i overtook the society from another person without some help, only the explatations in the excel sheet (explanation) and from "Elvenar Gems of Knowledge"

1. unfortunatly the wonder was built up two times and its nearly 3 week ago, so no way to reconstruct the donations.
Yes, the member is really new in our community... But what do i do now? Ignore his wonder? Only Update it to the new level and thats it?

2. I think i got it by my own, but the question was, if i have to put all new wonders in a new row? so copy the template row and fill out the name, wonder and details
. View attachment 7474
3. No, but you answerd my question, all people have to be in the list. I think the person, who did it before only forget to put it in.

4. ah ok... i didn´t knew that it is changeble.

5. Ok :)

I´m very glad that i have found somebody to answer my questions and i can go on with the society.
But i´m sure i will come back, the weekly overview is not yet clear for me, but i try :cool:


working on this thing creates so much more questions... i´m very sorry if the questions are stupid :-(

1. If a wonder, for example the temple level17 is finished, i have to copy like it´s said here

1587225859696.png


but thats only if, the temple is the next wonder.
what if the player wants a diffrent wonder, wich status will get the temple level18

1587225742818.png


or do i have to change the wonder immidiatly to the required wonder?

2. And what if a player want to change a wonder, do i change it in the list with the selection?
1587225640401.png


3. what, if i have no row "zz template"?
1587225671954.png


i can choose "hist" and "wonder" is that the right way?

1587225573053.png


and then copy from the row above or below?

1587225524842.png


4. KPs from people outside the community will not pay attention, except the got a chest, right?

5. and now the last point for the moment...the weekly update.
I did everthing like the presentation from the gems of knowlage said, but the current week doesn´t go back to 0
Is it because the week is still running?
 
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