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    Your Elvenar Team

Cancelled. After reading through it, this thread is irrecoverable.

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I don't think it was changed after voting started. That violates the rules. I didn't notice the wording until I reread the post earlier today. Since I hadn't looked at this thread for several days, it was a fresh read and I saw the words as they are, not as I knew they meant. The only problem would be a bit of confusion for someone reading it without having read the thread, but that would quickly pass since both the title and the second paragraph talk about spell fragments. As @Ashrem pointed out, the devs aren't going to think we want few rewards. The wording can't be corrected per the rules, but I don't think it's a big problem. I'm really beginning to wish I hadn't pointed that out if it's making people change their votes based on that sentence.
It was definitely changed after voting started; I'm quite clear on that because I didn't vote when I first started viewing this thread. I wasn't sure what I wanted, since I had so recently started playing the spire and didn't have a lot of sfs. But a couple of weeks later, I saw that the spire was going to work out for me, so I read it very carefully and decided to vote for it. I never, ever would have done that if I had seen the huge problem with the first line. Yes, I think the devs may very well think that reduction of spire rewards is a good idea. Think about it this way ... when has Inno decided that it's been too generous and nerfed things? What about the opposite ... when has Inno decided that it was being stingy and decided to increase rewards? If you think the former happens more often than the latter, then I could see them wanting an excuse to lower rewards overall ... including fragments, yes, but other things too. And then claim that we ASKED for it. Because of this, I had to change my vote, and I'm not at all happy about that. As an editor, I know how important wording is when people are looking for a reason to view it one way as opposed to another. If it was the way it originally was, I'd switch my vote back in a heartbeat. But as it is, no, I can't in good conscience vote for this.

Don't feel badly that you pointed it out. You aren't the one who changed the wording (AFTER we started voting, which YES, should be a violation of rules!)
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
There are many reasons why the player base might want fewer rewards, one of which would be the high tournament scores that resulted from the addition of the spire. With the present wording I would say that the amendment made to the proposition was not friendly, and could be seen as defeating the whole reason for the proposition.
Well I've run out of ways to sarcastically express what I think about the idea that the devs will choose to assume the subject is meaningless and we want fewer rewards.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
It was definitely changed after voting started; I'm quite clear on that because I didn't vote when I first started viewing this thread.
I don't think it was (other than moving stuff into the spoilers). I think we read what we expected to see, and once the bulk of the text was hidden, it became easier to see that what we thought it said isn't what it says.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I don't think it was (other than moving stuff into the spoilers). I think we read what we expected to see, and once the bulk of the text was hidden, it became easier to see that what we thought it said isn't what it says.
I spent half my life catching small errors and imperfections in other authors' books and articles. While I may not always catch my own when I type fast, I catch two spaces instead of one after a period while reading work by someone else . . . no matter how fast I go. It's habit. I don't think I could have missed something so blatant. But I guess we can't know for certain unless Sam tells us whether he made any changes. If he swears he didn't change anything, I'll concede that I'm getting up in years and should perhaps think about retiring, lol.
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
I'm definitely guilty of voting for it without re-reading the original proposal - instead I assumed it said what it said last time I read it and just voted. Lazy voting is never a good idea so lessson learned there. While I do think Ashrem is right, and the devs will know by the title alone that the suggestion was geared toward spell fragments and not overall rewards, I am sceptical of the exclusion of the original details. At least the older version showed specific requests of fewer fragments with possible replacements. Hiding that does, sadly, muddy the original idea down to the point where we now have to ask ourselves how much we trust Inno. Judging by the strength of some of the reactions on here today (gotta say it all took an unpleasant turn, wasn't a fan of how that went down) it doesn't sound like there is a ton of trust. I have until the 2nd to consider my vote, I suppose. But in general it feels like this poll and in particular the discussion today has gone off the rails a bit.
 
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Pheryll

Set Designer
But I guess we can't know for certain unless Sam tells us whether he made any changes. If he swears he didn't change anything, I'll concede that I'm getting up in years and should perhaps think about retiring, lol.

Last edited by a moderator: Today at 8:44 AM

@Xelenia could you please weigh in? I understand that the time I posted from the display is particular to my timezone.
 

Xelenia

Ex-Team Member
Hello,

Looking at the last three edit history, it was not edited by Sam upon opening-up for voting. Last edit by Sam was on the 17th, and I made it a poll on the 18th.

@Xelenia could you please weigh in? I understand that the time I posted from the display is particular to my timezone.

With that said, it is important to remain civil. One can remain constructive and civil while holding a discussion :)

This is one of the reasons I try my best to make sure the initial post is clear and concise. Unfortunately, I cannot babysit every discussion that makes their way into this subsection. Hopefully, we all have some positive takeaway from this :) I know I do :oops:
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Well unless ast least six people change their votes, it's going as is, so we better hope the Devs are brighter than some people think.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Hello,

Looking at the last three edit history, it was not edited by Sam upon opening-up for voting. Last edit by Sam was on the 17th, and I made it a poll on the 18th.



With that said, it is important to remain civil. One can remain constructive and civil while holding a discussion :)

This is one of the reasons I try my best to make sure the initial post is clear and concise. Unfortunately, I cannot babysit every discussion that makes their way into this subsection. Hopefully, we all have some positive takeaway from this :) I know I do :oops:
Could you let us know if the sentence about reducing spire rewards was edited by anyone since the poll started? I didn't know anyone else could edit it until Pheryll pointed it out. I'd like to know if anyone else modified that first sentence of Sam's post. Thanks.
 

sam767

Well-Known Member
Wow! I should have worded it better. The combination of this wording and the detailed recommendation in the penultimate version of this suggestion is unambiguous. If the devs don't get to see that version than the suggestion is ambiguous. The correct wording is:

Title: Reduce proportion of spell fragments in the spire rewards

The recommendation is to somewhat reduce the proportion of spire rewards in the High Halls and greatly reduce the proportion of spire rewards in the Laboratory,

This is the final version of the recommendation. The problem with spell fragments has been extensively discussed in this thread. There was no consensus on the replacement to the SF rewards. I made specific recommendation below. This version of the proposal makes no recommendation other than greatly reduce the proportion.

Should I ask Xelenia for a correction and a restart or just let it go?
 

Xelenia

Ex-Team Member
Could you let us know if the sentence about reducing spire rewards was edited by anyone since the poll started? I didn't know anyone else could edit it until Pheryll pointed it out. I'd like to know if anyone else modified that first sentence of Sam's post. Thanks.

Well, I can tell you that the rest of the moderators are busy dealing with their own tasks to bother with this section, which is out of their jurisdiction. I on the other hand is far too lazy to edit posts and change words to how I see fit. This is why I usually just delete posts ^.~

But to answer your question, no, no staff has edited the OP post to make anyone in here confused as to what it is you are voting for. His post has been the same since the 17th.

At this point, I feel the thread has derailed on actually discussing the idea and turned into who is right and who is wrong. If it continues that path, I will have no choice but to close the thread until voting completes.

Thank you
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Seems like all spire discussions quickly get messy. There are a lot of differing opinions about it out there. The only real agreement seems to be something needs to be changed.

I think reducing the amount of spell fragments as you move up the spire is a start, maybe even a good start, but it is not the end. The spire is the newest significant element added to the game. As such, it's not at all surprising there are balance issues within it. Those issues are different depending on your level, amount of play, and style of play. I'm sure a perfect solution for all will never exist, but what changes we suggest should not adversely hurt an entire class of players. I don't think this one hurts players. It keeps what those who don't venture far need and reduces what isn't needed by those who venture farther up the spire.

As for a lot of the discussion today, I'm sorry for anything I wrote that aided the derailing of the thread. It was not my intention, but if feels like it did contribute to that.

Last, @sam767 I feel for you. I've started a few of my post with "Wow!" when I've read some proceeding posts. The spire is an exceedingly tough subject. Thank you for diving into the pool.
 

sam767

Well-Known Member
Title: Reduce proportion of spell fragments in the spire rewards

The recommendation is to somewhat reduce the proportion of spire rewards in the High Halls and greatly reduce the proportion of spire rewards in the Laboratory,

This is the final version of the recommendation. The problem with spell fragments has been extensively discussed in this thread. There was no consensus on the replacement to the SF rewards. I made specific recommendation below. This version of the proposal makes no recommendation other than greatly reduce the proportion.

Should I ask Xelenia for a correction and a restart or just let it go?
It looks like I can edit and correct the first post. Is it permissible? Is it a good idea?
 
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sam767

Well-Known Member
Seems like all spire discussions quickly get messy. There are a lot of differing opinions about it out there. The only real agreement seems to be something needs to be changed.

I think reducing the amount of spell fragments as you move up the spire is a start, maybe even a good start, but it is not the end. The spire is the newest significant element added to the game. As such, it's not at all surprising there are balance issues within it. Those issues are different depending on your level, amount of play, and style of play. I'm sure a perfect solution for all will never exist, but what changes we suggest should not adversely hurt an entire class of players. I don't think this one hurts players. It keeps what those who don't venture far need and reduces what isn't needed by those who venture farther up the spire.

As for a lot of the discussion today, I'm sorry for anything I wrote that aided the derailing of the thread. It was not my intention, but if feels like it did contribute to that.

Last, @sam767 I feel for you. I've started a few of my post with "Wow!" when I've read some proceeding posts. The spire is an exceedingly tough subject. Thank you for diving into the pool.
I completely agree. I tried for a limited, easy to implement change that would address some of the loudest complaints in my FS.
It is very hard to get some of my team to finish the high halls.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
I would say from my interactions with other players, it isn't that they want less rewards, just rewards that better fit their game play. But then again, it's part of the challenge of this game... to define your strategy, is it not? When crafting was first introduced, I dumped far too many items and played to regret that purge of my inventory. The spire changed that. Now, I keep my inventory and get my fragments from the Spire. It's all a matter of perspective.

When the 'Great Nerfing' was introduced to the wholesaler and the CL, it was quite a blow to the way I played. It changed the entire economy of the game. The CL in particular really had a negative impact on the help I was receiving from my neighbors. In both cases, adjustments had to be made. I believe it is the same with the spire. It would have been nice if the rewards were based by chapter, but that might have been too complicated.
 

Risen Malchiah

Well-Known Member
Feels off the tracks enough at this point that a restart may be just the thing to put it right.
It looks like I can edit and correct the first post. Is it permissible? Is it a good idea?
As per the rules, no, we can't change it once voting has commenced. With that said, that one particular line is creating major problems. Most of the people voting no (myself included) are doing so specifically because of that line that implies we want an across-the-board reduction in spell fragments (which is not the case) or a reduction in rewards in general. While we may like to assume the devs could read our intentions, they may not. It could just as easily be interpreted as those who paid diamonds to upgrade the Magic Academy feeling slighted that spell fragments are so easy to obtain. I have not seen that argument made, but I think the devs could easily interpret that way.

I see no way to continue without either getting permission to change that line. Or cancelling the vote and starting over with a well-defined proposal. As the OP, @sam767 you have that option if you wish to start over.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
It looks like I can edit and correct the first post. Is it permissible? Is it a good idea?
If it's allowed, I would appreciate it, Sam. Looks like I will start thinking about retiring from my editing job. I can't believe I didn't spot this sooner. Thank you so much for your efforts in this. It was a great idea.
 
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