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    Your Elvenar Team

Unfair Trades

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AtaguS

Well-Known Member
The Middle player usually trades both ways up/down... whereas the old player usually
trades with mid players and old players, but not mainly new players..... conversely,
the new player mostly trades with the mid player and other smaller players , because
thier trade amts really have no good use for old players... just too small....
I can echo what others have already said on this...many "old players" go down the line and sweep up small trades daily, if not regularly. These old players have learned that there is an advantage to helping new and mid players in their NHs because a strong NH is a big asset in this game. As @Sandstorm173 says...it is a waste of energy to search through the trader for trades that suit you. Far easier and more producrive to post what you need.

I'm CH3 and I have 52 neighbors, of those 3 trade regularly, and 4 more outside
my free trade zone also trade regularly.... thats 7 of 250 ?????
Ch1-2 players have far fewer than I ....

And then add in the members of your fellowship. If you are not in a fellowship which is able or willing to trade with you in a way which overrides the general marketplace then it is time to assess whether you are willing to grow at a slower pace or need to begin looking for a new fs. I know that's not an easy leap to make for many reasons...and I've opted to stay in fss and grow slower in the past because there were other good and valid reasons to stay. And I've opted to move on for a chance to grow faster...It just sounds like this is a big frustration for you but the right fs can resolve that frustration.
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
@BrinDarby, I think the last few poster have said it well enough, so I wont repeat them. I will say one thing that you seem to have overlooked, and that is the title of the post "Unfair Trades". It is not about the individual trade, it was started due to the lack of trades that "unfairly" affected one party not from the penalty of the "trader fee" but from the selfish acts of players that felt the need in 2016 to abuse the trading system. It has since morphed into the current days "unfair trades" that are prevalent in the sentient goods market. I have bolded the portion you have overlooked as it is about multiple trades and not an individual one. Rather than look at the one look at the whole and see the damage that the players that abuse the system are causing.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
They don't really "keep the economy running" until they can produce enough goods to make a dent in the required amount of goods for advanced players.
Exactly... for advanced... but smaller playews do make enuff to supply other small and med players .......

there's only 2 kinda of players I have seen active..... CH`12+++ , CH 4------
and the Older players seem to believe they are the only autority on how this game is played,
thus cementing thier advantage against all other new players......

Where do I start with with Ashram's post my god, quote me another few times why dont ya.....

This isn't about what Helps BrinDarby... Its what Helps Elvenar and retention of players....
and "unfair trades" does have wiggle room therefore I am on topic.....

You say old players sweep the smaller trades .... define "smaller trades "
To someone who produces 400k smaller might be 5000, or is smaller ONLY anything below 300ish???

Everyone said "Brin, just make your boost, trade for the rest" ... HOW .... I can trade with a whole 3 ppl
that I don't have to pay a frick'n fee too ... but I see TONS of accts that are inactive, and the majority
of those are ones where ppl just quit after a few days/weeks...... IF so many ppl trade for thier non boosted
goods, where are all the trades ?????? I shud see hundreds, from 250(300) players .....

Not only is the trading system hampering trade itself, its bias'd against newer players, InnoGames
allow older players to bully players with this BS always 1:1 crap, AND.....
The loss of Revenue from new players not staying, and ignoring the economy itself generating revenue.....
Baffles me beyond belief......

@Ashrem , get off my back !!!!
 

Sandstorm173

Active Member
They don't really "keep the economy running" until they can produce enough goods to make a dent in the required amount of goods for advanced players. And I wouldn't say that one group keeps the economy running, different people trading and growing and helping each other does. If there were only new players to trade goods to advanced players to help with stuff, no one would get anywhere.
Exactly... for advanced... but smaller players do make enough to supply other small and med players .......
They don't really make enough to supply middle players. One of my FS members in chapter 2 produces about 3000 steel per day. To supply my spire catering they would need at least 3-4 days, maybe more, and they would be giving up growth in their city. Instead, my catering is supplied by advanced players because they have way more goods than me and can spare them. (I'm in chapter 4) Small players can't really supply other small players, because they don't produce tons extra, but they can engage in trading with each other.

there's only 2 kinda of players I have seen active..... CH`12+++ , CH 4------
What about the many people who are between those chapters?
and the Older players seem to believe they are the only authority on how this game is played,
thus cementing their advantage against all other new players......
None of the older players I have met forced anything on me. They just suggest what to do and help with it. They also have never used the fact that they are larger than me against me. It might be different for you, but not all older players are like what you have experinced.
You say old players sweep the smaller trades .... define "smaller trades "
To someone who produces 400k smaller might be 5000, or is smaller ONLY anything below 300ish???
That would depend on city size. I can help with trades in the hundreds, but one of my FS members traded me 64k marble last night easily, and some other players take many trades pretty often. A really advanced player might have 5m of goods, so 10k would be a small amount for them, and a player with 500k might accept trades smaller than that. It depends on how large the city is and how may goods they produce.
Everyone said "Brin, just make your boost, trade for the rest" ... HOW .... I can trade with a whole 3 ppl
that I don't have to pay a frick'n fee too ... but I see TONS of accounts that are inactive, and the majority
of those are ones where people just quit after a few days/weeks...... IF so many people trade for their non boosted
goods, where are all the trades ?????? I should see hundreds, from 250(300) players .....
Many of those players might be inactive. You could be in an awful part of the map. If you join a fellowship though it will probably be easier to get trades picked up, as long as that fellowship is active. You don;t have to, it would just make things easier.
Not only is the trading system hampering trade itself, its bias'd against newer players, InnoGames
allow older players to bully players with this BS always 1:1 crap,
1:1 trades. Isn't that a good thing? Why would advanced players be bullying new players by posting fair trades? If you mean the fee, then if you find an advanced player who you want to trade with you can send them a message and they might pick up your trades, and they might have discovered you and not need to pay the trader fee.
@Ashrem , get off my back !!!!
This is a public forum, @Ashrem can say whatever they want as long as it isn't breaking any forum rules.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
quote me another few times why dont ya.....
I believe that interspersing comments with quotes with comments makes it easier to see what I'm replying to. I'm aware not everyone thinks the same, and do not require others to post the way I do.
You say old players sweep the smaller trades .... define "smaller trades "
To someone who produces 400k smaller might be 5000, or is smaller ONLY anything below 300ish???
Since I never offer trades below 50,000 units (for T1-T3, anything under 50,000 is a small trade. Others will have different criteria based on their output.
get off my back !!!!
I'm pretty sure the primary things on your back are thinking that if someone disagrees with you it's personal, and the presumption that because some people want to be able to make a profit on trade, the game and other players ought to support that.

Lots of us have to deal with unbridled capitalism in our real lives day after dreary day, and don't want to deal with it in every game we play. Among other reasons, Elvenar's identifying of predatory trades is why we enjoy this game. There are plenty of other games which do not do anything to get in the way of predatory trading, and some of us will actively resist attempts to turn Elvenar into one of them.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I'm only in Wood Elves, so not anywhere near Ashrem's level on trading. I usually take small trades from all of my neighbors (by small, I mean anything from 10 items up ... but I usually only offer 5000-10000 at a time). If small players need trades, their best bet is to offer, not hope to buy. Someone is bound to pick them up AS LONG as they are fair. But if they want so desperately to post unfair small trades in order to build themselves up faster (wrongly thinking that's the best way to get ahead ... it isn't) then they'll probably find themselves unhappy and complaining on this forum. ;)
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Everyone said "Brin, just make your boost, trade for the rest" ... HOW .... I can trade with a whole 3 ppl
that I don't have to pay a frick'n fee too ... but I see TONS of accts that are inactive, and the majority
of those are ones where ppl just quit after a few days/weeks...... IF so many ppl trade for thier non boosted
goods, where are all the trades ?????? I shud see hundreds, from 250(300) players .....

Not only is the trading system hampering trade itself, its bias'd against newer players, InnoGames
allow older players to bully players with this BS always 1:1 crap, AND.....
The loss of Revenue from new players not staying, and ignoring the economy itself generating revenue.....
Baffles me beyond belief......

@Ashrem , get off my back !!!!

You will never have to pay a trader fee for posting trades. Try 3 star trades ... those will get picked up the fastest ... and then wait for all the people who can see your trade without a fee to pick it up. They'll sweep it, just like everyone here has told you they will.

If your boost is marble, try posting 100 marble and asking for 95 steel. It's almost guaranteed that your trade will be picked up within 24 hours. If you keep doing it, soon you'll be swimming in goods and get ahead on the game. People aren't leaving because of problems with trading unless they're trying to make a killing and alienating all their neighbors.

Since I started here, I have never offered a 1 star trade except for the rare occasions when the group desperately needed more points in the tourney and I needed more stuff to cater to help us get over the top. When I mentioned I had no resource to get a province, they told me to post an unfair trade so I could get the group over, because they had no more provinces they could do and wanted me to get my max. That's the only time.

99% of the time since I started, I have posted a standard 5 percent discount, so a three-star trade. My neighbors have come to expect the discount and they scoop up all of my trades within hours. I've done this since I was new, and I feel like I've progressed since I started in mid-October. I'm well into Wood Elves now. Three star trades have gotten me where I am, and I feel no anger at posting them. I feel like I AM GETTING A BENEFIT by posting them, in super speedy replenishment of my non-boosts, and my neighbors are getting a benefit too. Win win.

I've never felt there was a bias against new players. Never .... but then again, I've never had an entitlement hangup, either. The older players have always been wonderful to me, and treat me as one of their favorite players. I get lots of visits, lots of trades, and feel like I'm moving along at a good clip. Maybe the best way to feel like the world is fair to you is to first be fair to the world.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
Everyone said "Brin, just make your boost, trade for the rest" ... HOW .... I can trade with a whole 3 ppl
that I don't have to pay a frick'n fee too
Not only is the trading system hampering trade itself, its bias'd against newer players, InnoGames
allow older players to bully players with this BS always 1:1 crap, AND.....
The right fellowship will solve these problems. (a) it'll give you 24 active trading partners, and (b) large players in good fellowships often TRY to give goods to their small fellows via lopsided trades.

People who focus on "fair trades" aren't usually concerned with "equal" so much as they're concerned about a spirit of teamwork and helpfulness. The same big player who would ignore profiteering trades from a stranger (and this thread started talking about profiteering big cities, not newbies trying to get started) will often bend over backwards to share their wealth with new cities.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I'm one of those large cities. The smallest inventory of regular goods I have is 3.6 million silk. The largest is 13.1 million scrolls. Other goods are in the 5-7 million range. I post trades for my needs. I usually post 100K asking for 90K of the goods I'm looking for. Yes, I check the trader first to see what's there, but I don't depend on other players to post for my benefit. I think it's silly for me to try to post small amounts to 'help' small cities. I have no idea what goods a small city needs nor do I know what they have in stock to trade for them. Also, I have no idea if they have 'discovered' me, so the trader may add a fee to that city for taking that trade that costs the small city and I never even know about it. Instead, I expect small cities to post trades for their needs (just like I do!) and not depend on other players to 'guess' at what they might need.
I routinely clear the trader of all 2-star same tier trades of 20K or less. I ignore cross-tier (that's a holdover from when those were gouging trades and still marked as 2-star by the system) and less than 2-star trades in the amount of 1000K or more. Those limits are for neighbor trades. Since I have explored out so much farther than the smaller cities around me, I never see a trader fee anymore.
In my FS, I take zero star trades, cross-tier zero star trades (even when the trader allowed a much larger difference). I am not going to take those trades outside my FS (routinely; there are exceptions if a neighbor city has a conversation with me). I want to be a benefit to my FS and maintain an inventory where I can take trades other cities in my FS need taken. Many of those cities are larger than mine. I cannot maintain my inventory if I routinely take unfair trades from neighboring cities and deplete my inventory with no benefit to my city or FS.
Similar to real estate, there are 3 key things to getting the goods you need: Post trades. Post trades. Post trades!
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
@Darielle ,
You still, in my opinion, are confusing... swaps with trades .....
Explain to me, how if you give 5% of your production, you're "swimming in goods" ??
Does that mean you just hord them and not use them ?? Why would anyone be satisfied
with just thier production, if you trade 1:1 then you ALWAYS are capp'd on YOUR production.

You also seem to misunderstand ...the "bias" against new players is the game itself, not how
other ppl interact with those players......

@Kekune seems to think all FSs have 25 active ppl, they don't.... and trying to get into a good,
chatty, active fellowship is insanely hard .... so there's no access to 24 hr trading within a FS,
unless its a perfect FS with 4 ppl on in 4 hr shifts 24/7.......

Darielle, you also must have miss'd a comment of mine, where I posted (3) offers... ALL better
than 1:1 for the buyer, so as you say @ a discount... and 1 of the 3 was listed as a 1 star trade.
That means the code of the game can't even do simple math and lies in the display....

The TV commercial says 2 things : That Elvenar is a social game and Trade is a part of it.
what it neglects to say, is that its not in realtime.....

If you wanna get technical.... 100 planks = 110 marble = 116 steel ....
taking in to account # of tiles need'd and # of pop need'd ... I bet you think they are all equal.
I can't control the fact goods between tiers is 1:1.5 , not 1:4 as it was before I joined, so
to that.... it is what it is..... cross tier trading is essential at times and shouldnt be discouraged.
If ppl cannot do simple math ( multiplication and division ) then buy a calculator.....

You and others also keep saying , well in a good FS there will ppl to "give" you stuff to help
you out..... like its charity or something... I earn my own way, and I don't need charity...
You can ask my FS, I dare ya...... try msg'n Farsticks2.... I pull my own wait, and I'm a great
asset to my FS....

You also seem to think, in error, that Im just complaining..... have you ever heard of a
discussion/debate ???

@samidodamage is a perfect example.....
I never see a trader fee anymore.
So basically, at a point when he really doesn't need to "trade" , thats when he has no fee
to anyone.... versus a newer or brand new player who does need trade.

Not only is the star system very poorly implemented, but it allows ppl to be bad @ math.
I get it, lowest common demonator , cater to IQ/math challanged players .... but when
the system itself cant do simple math, then how can we players trust what it says ???

Unfair trades mean different things to different ppl, this thread is for everyone...
and YES its a discussion/debate... not argument.....

Inno-Games needs the feedback from players that enjoy MMOs like this, but enjoy
different aspects within most MMOs. Sure Elvenar can be a niche where trading/economy
isn't what it is in other MMOs, but a basic tennent of "trade" is "profit".....

Last Q Darielle, if the current game/system is so great, why are there so many players
that try Elvenar and quit 2 days later, or players that play for years only for Inno to tweak
something rendering all thier hard work Moot and quit , too ???????? There's gotta be a reason....

Maybee this is a case where I'm having a philisophical conversation about a subject, and
people thing its just a complaint thread or a witch session..... Iono
BrinD
 

Sandstorm173

Active Member
Explain to me, how if you give 5% of your production, you're "swimming in goods" ??
3 star trades get picked up quickly.
You also seem to misunderstand ...the "bias" against new players is the game itself, not how
other ppl interact with those players......
It's harder for newer players to get trades picked up, but joining a fellowship can help! Then you get trades without a fee, and you could join one with advanced players who can give you extra goods.
@Kekune seems to think all FSs have 25 active ppl, they don't.... and trying to get into a good,
chatty, active fellowship is insanely hard .... so there's no access to 24 hr trading within a FS,
unless its a perfect FS with 4 ppl on in 4 hr shifts 24/7.......
Using elvenstats can help to find an active fellowship. There is also nothing wrong with taking a while to find the fellowship you want to be in
Darielle, you also must have miss'd a comment of mine, where I posted (3) offers... ALL better
than 1:1 for the buyer, so as you say @ a discount... and 1 of the 3 was listed as a 1 star trade.
That means the code of the game can't even do simple math and lies in the display....
So did I . . . when did you say that? It might have been cross tier.
That Elvenar is a social game and Trade is a part of it.
what it neglects to say, is that its not in realtime.....
It can be a social game if you find the right FS. In my FS, at least one person is usually on, so we can chat whenever we want. As for trading, an active FS can help with that as well. I usually trade with the same 5 or so people, but my trades get picked up really quickly.
If you wanna get technical.... 100 planks = 110 marble = 116 steel ....
taking in to account # of tiles need'd and # of pop need'd ... I bet you think they are all equal.
Not really. 1 steel factory takes up 36 pop and make 6 steel in 3 hours (with out a production boost)
2 marble factories use the same amount of space and produce the same amount of goods, but requires 4 more pop than 1 steel.
2 plank factories take up the same space and produce the same amount of goods, but require 8 more pop than steel.
I can't control the fact goods between tiers is 1:1.5 , not 1:4 as it was before I joined, so
to that.... it is what it is.....
Which is good because the old way was really unfair.
cross tier trading is essential at times and shouldnt be discouraged.
Yes, it is essential at times, but if you only trade cross tier that's unfair to trading partners, because the are missing some of your boosts. Also, T3 is much more expensive to produce than T1.
You and others also keep saying , well in a good FS there will ppl to "give" you stuff to help
you out..... like its charity or something... I earn my own way, and I don't need charity...
You can ask my FS, I dare ya...... try msg'n Farsticks2.... I pull my own wait, and I'm a great
asset to my FS....
You don't need to get help from your FS if you don't want, but if they trade you goods you can do more and become a bigger asset to your fellowship.
You also seem to think, in error, that Im just complaining..... have you ever heard of a
discussion/debate ???
Some of your posts sound like complaining.
So basically, at a point when he really doesn't need to "trade" , thats when he has no fee
to anyone.... versus a newer or brand new player who does need trade.
There isn't really a point where you don't need to trade. You might temporarily stop trading if you have finished all the chapters, but you still need goods for the spire/tournaments if you are a caterer, and once the next chapter comes out you will need goods.
Not only is the star system very poorly implemented, but it allows ppl to be bad @ math.
I get it, lowest common demonator , cater to IQ/math challanged players .... but when
the system itself cant do simple math, then how can we players trust what it says ???
When did the system not do simple math? And I don't want to have to do the math myself to do my trades, I'd rather just have the system do it for me.
Last Q Darielle, if the current game/system is so great, why are there so many players
that try Elvenar and quit 2 days later, or players that play for years only for Inno to tweak
something rendering all thier hard work Moot and quit , too ???????? There's gotta be a reason....
They get bored when they reach point when they need to upgrade something that takes a while. They try to produce all goods and don't get enough of anything? There are a lot of reasons why people quit, not just having trouble finding active players to trade with.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
@Darielle ,
Darielle, you also must have miss'd a comment of mine, where I posted (3) offers... ALL better
than 1:1 for the buyer, so as you say @ a discount... and 1 of the 3 was listed as a 1 star trade.
That means the code of the game can't even do simple math and lies in the display....

If you wanna get technical.... 100 planks = 110 marble = 116 steel ....
taking in to account # of tiles need'd and # of pop need'd ... I bet you think they are all equal.
I can't control the fact goods between tiers is 1:1.5 , not 1:4 as it was before I joined, so
to that.... it is what it is..... cross tier trading is essential at times and shouldnt be discouraged.
If ppl cannot do simple math ( multiplication and division ) then buy a calculator.....

You and others also keep saying , well in a good FS there will ppl to "give" you stuff to help
you out..... like its charity or something... I earn my own way, and I don't need charity...
You can ask my FS, I dare ya...... try msg'n Farsticks2.... I pull my own wait, and I'm a great
asset to my FS....

Last Q Darielle, if the current game/system is so great, why are there so many players
that try Elvenar and quit 2 days later, or players that play for years only for Inno to tweak
something rendering all thier hard work Moot and quit , too ???????? There's gotta be a reason....

Maybee this is a case where I'm having a philisophical conversation about a subject, and
people thing its just a complaint thread or a witch session..... Iono
BrinD

Brin, you have said often that you want a chatty fellowship ... no one likes to talk to a know-it-all. That may be one of the reasons that people aren't speaking to you in chat. If you weren't so condescending to people trying to help you, and assuming that you are the only intelligent person in the room, you would have found a lot of good friends in this forum by now. Sigh. Most of the people here are actually pretty smart. You have to have some intelligence to be able to strategize in the spire, calculate chests in events, figure out fighting strategy, etc. If you treated them as equals instead of paeons who don't understand your brilliance, you'd have found what you're looking for by now.

Now, as to the first paragraph. If you posted a 1:1 trade and it was still called a "one star" trade by the trader, then you must have posted a cross trade, ie, 100 silk for 100 marble. It simply isn't possible for the trader to call it a one star trade if you posted 100 planks for 100 marble, for example. (Write a ticket if that's not the case.) I know what you're saying as far as the space requirements of a steel versus a planks but your reasoning is flawed, since they do not start out equally as far as output goes. Steel gives more output right off the bat, at level one, than wood or planks. There is a minor imbalance, but it does not seriously affect a player who is boosted in that item. Frankly, I think the imbalance is more evident in 3 tier manufactories, not 1 or 2 tier, since the three tier need ridiculous amounts of supplies that the balance they tried to create in the trader a few months back is now more out of whack than ever. But that problem comes later ... it doesn't affect the newbies.

And YES, it IS charity if a fellowship takes a one star trade to help a newbie. And if I were to ask your AM how you're fitting in, and point that AM to all of your forum posts, they probably would think exactly the same thing that forum members think. You don't see how you have come across from the very first thread. The forum does not consist of members waiting for enlightenment from a newbie, although they would welcome new points of view on certain aspects of play. I came here as a newbie to get help from wiser souls than I, as most people do. I didn't come on to dictate what I wanted from the poor huddled masses here starving for my expertise.

As far as why people quit .... why do they quit EVERY game? In every game I've ever played, there have been people who tried it and left after maybe one session or two. That's the nature of free games. If you don't have money invested in something, it's easy to try and quit. It's not because there is something inherently wrong with the game. There are some other great games out there ... are you trying to tell me that no one ever quits those games? Nonsense. Elvenar is a game that slowly immerses you. My son played it for a while, but realized it was pulling him in, taking too much time, and so he quit. In a way, I think that's a testament to how good Elvenar really is. If it can draw you in so much that you realize you're spending too much time here and need to get back to work, then leaving isn't a reflection on how bad the game is, but rather how good. You just don't want to get addicted. That's only one reason, of course, but there are many reasons in all games.

I know you'll respond to show how much smarter you are than I am, but you know what? Go ahead ... I'm tired and I'm out of here. I suspect your fellowship, which you mentioned as a testament to how great a player you are, will soon be very tired too. I think most people are by now. Sigh. Fire away.
 

shimmerfly

Well-Known Member
@Darielle
You hit on some very good points. Thank you.
Frankly, I too, am weary of this whole, pick on the new player, and everything is unfair to me, and I'm smarter than the game, and this is supposed to be a social game etc., etc.
I think I either need to stay away from the forum for a while or just this whole thread.
It is to the point I will say something I shouldn't...maybe I already have.
 

T6583

Well-Known Member
trying to get into a good,
chatty, active fellowship is insanely hard .... so there's no access to 24 hr trading within a FS,
unless its a perfect FS with 4 ppl on in 4 hr shifts 24/7.......
Brin you might be better off maybe trying to find an FS that has more international people on it. My FS in the K world has members from the USA, Canada, and Europe. There's a good chance with the different time zones that someone is one most of the time. However not everyone is chatty. There are times that my FS which I consider to be chatty is quiet. You might actually want to try starting a city on the EU server which is commonly considered the international server (someone correct me if I'm wrong since I only play on the US servers and Beta) or the Beta server where there may be more people on around the clock to meet you needs.
So basically, at a point when he really doesn't need to "trade" , thats when he has no fee
to anyone.... versus a newer or brand new player who does need trade.
As a Chapter 16 city I disagree with the above statement. I still need to trade. Especially for sentient goods. And also after the demands of T1 goods in Chapter 16 I need to rebuild my stash. I routinely sweep my trader for small cities to grab there goods to help them out. But like most players unless the city is in my FS or is a neighbor that has messaged me for help I won't take anything less than 2 stars because of how some players abuse the system.
Brin, you have said often that you want a chatty fellowship ... no one likes to talk to a know-it-all. That may be one of the reasons that people aren't speaking to you in chat. If you weren't so condescending to people trying to help you, and assuming that you are the only intelligent person in the room, you would have found a lot of good friends in this forum by now. Sigh. Most of the people here are actually pretty smart. You have to have some intelligence to be able to strategize in the spire, calculate chests in events, figure out fighting strategy, etc. If you treated them as equals instead of paeons who don't understand your brilliance, you'd have found what you're looking for by now.
I agree with Darielle. I play in the same world as you as does Kekune. I specifically sent you a PM here on the forum mentioning an FS that is designed to help out new players and cities to help with trading, events, tourney, knowledge and help in growing cities. You seemed to have ignored that message. At one point I was even considering offering you a spot in my FS when we had an opening since you seemed so insterested in this game and learning about it. However based on what I have seen personally on the forums at this point, your attitude and remarks have made me change my mind as I now think that you would not be a good fit for us. I personally have made several friends here on this forum. I have found good FS members here for my own FS as well as for one to join in the F World.
if the current game/system is so great, why are there so many players
that try Elvenar and quit 2 days later, or players that play for years only for Inno to tweak
something rendering all thier hard work Moot and quit , too ???????? There's gotta be a reason....
There are flaws with the game as there are with every game. The trader is significantly better than it was with the changes that occured less than a year ago. Those changes happened because of feedback from the forums. That isn't the reason most people quit. This game is a marathon not a sprint. Alot of players don't have the patience for it in my opinion. As for some of the players with advanced cities quit it ranges from players not feeling that Inno is listening to them, to changes that Inno has made to the game that might affect their playstyle (I had a large city quit when Inno decided to try force players to upgrade all of their manufactories and workshops to certain levels based on chapter for events), they get bored, they've gotten frustrated with a chapter or waiting for a new chapter. The reasons are countless and specific to individuals. Right now if some of the Beta changes that recently went into affect come to live it will greatly affect and even hurt advanced players, especially players who have spent money to support the game. That could very easily cause players to quit, especially if they feel penalized now for spending money and or making decisions on how to play the game that they can't undo now.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
It appears to me there are three "problems" in BrinDarby's "complaint/observation. First, the area he is in is pretty much dead. Second, his fs is not working for him, and third, the game makes it too hard for smaller players (for various reasons) and they quit.

The first is addressed by moving. Yes, you may end up in a worse area (if that was possible), but more than likely you will end up in a better one since the odds are that more than most of your world is "better" than your location (since your current location is below, I believe, the norm for the game).

The second is addressed by changing fellowships. FS's have been suggested and hopefully you will find an active, chatty, and fun group.

The third is in the game and I agree it is difficult for a ch 5 or below player to get started. Most of the problem is space, exploring being too expensive ("very hard" seems to dominate for too long), just not generating enough goods (often because the player tries to make all the goods instead of just boosted and doesn't understand the trade system), and the general problem of learning the game, especially trading. The "solution" to this is what many people do: "contact and encourage." If older players took the time to contact new players in the first week or so and give them some basic advice it might help. The only problem is that to find "new" players is difficult as any new players in your neighborhood may actually be old players just recently moved. (Hmmmm.... maybe a "new player banner" for the first week? -- I've seen games do this.).

In any case the first two "problems" are probably easily solved and in doing so will mostly solve the third. However, the third I think, is really up to the player base. We need to be, I think, more friendly and "come alongside" new players more. Now to find a way to do that....

AJ
 

Evening Star Selene

Active Member
The third is in the game and I agree it is difficult for a ch 5 or below player to get started. Most of the problem is space, exploring being too expensive ("very hard" seems to dominate for too long), just not generating enough goods (often because the player tries to make all the goods instead of just boosted and doesn't understand the trade system), and the general problem of learning the game, especially trading. The "solution" to this is what many people do: "contact and encourage." If older players took the time to contact new players in the first week or so and give them some basic advice it might help. The only problem is that to find "new" players is difficult as any new players in your neighborhood may actually be old players just recently moved. (Hmmmm.... maybe a "new player banner" for the first week? -- I've seen games do this.).
AJ

You are absolutely right here, AJ! My FS helped me grow quite quickly from a chapter 2 player to chapter 6. They did not just give me handouts as @BrinDarby suggests, but rather through our accomplishments in the tournament, spire, and fellowship adventures. At the very beginning, they did help me out with materials when I needed it, but that was only twice. Instead, they give me advice when I needed it, encouragement to keep plowing ahead, and are good solid friends that keep me coming back to the game. Everyone was a new player at one point, so I don't approach the older players with an entitlement attitude, expecting to receive materials from them "because they don't need to trade." It never has been older players versus newer players... we are all working towards the same goal!
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
@Darielle ,
Sure I'll give it a shot ..... ( lets all laugh together, its acutally a tad bit funny )

I dbbl checked just now... I posted the following 3 offers...
500:501 , 1000:1001 , 2000:2002 ...... and yes I was wrong in that there is what .1% profit, not a better than 1:1 trade...
But....... the 1st (2) are listed as 2star and the 3rd is a 1 star trade ..... ( .1% of 1000 = 1 and .1% of 2000 = 2 )
therefore both #2 and #3 offers are the same % yet different stars ???? 2 vs 1 ??? thats halarious and WRONG .....
All 3 offers were Elixer : Dust ..... so don't say its a cross tier trade, please ........... the game is wrong.....

Next, wow I was wrong again, and look'd @ my cheat sheet to quickly ....
100 steel = 110 marble = 116 planks .... I had them backwards, oops.... sry ......
using lvl-1 bldgs and since steel is a 2x2, then 2 of each of the other... T2/3 dont have that problem.
I'll have to get you the formula I used, its not on this device but it gave all goods a raw score on the same formula.

If I was perfect, or a know-it-all, or smarter... whatever, I prolly wouldn't admit any mistakes.
Were they simple oooops's, well yeah, but still .......

in a perfect world players could toggle offers for FS only, and we can debate how much profit is too much,
but the point to trade is still trade, not swap ...... swap is what you do within a FS....

There will always be players that are better @ some things than others, doesn't mean they are "better" than
the other person, there is a distinction..... Text is very often misread.. as to tone especially.....

You made some claim as to my FS, and no..... noone ever talks, and its possible I might be happier elsewhere,
but they accepted me when way too many others didn't, and after a couple bumps, I have remained loyal to them.
I'm very active in everything, and some are not..... but not once have I even suggested anyone play more...
Why, because its not up to me..... to tell you how to play your game, if its ok to the FS.... duhhhhh

I'm sure a few ppl are tired of 6 pages of my offers 24/7, but then thats my right... so its a 2 way street here....
my 6 pages of trades @ not 1:1 and thier not playing ..... it equals out....

It just feels like catch 22, Darielle ..... I can't be social there, and I can't be social here, simply cause I have
a unique personality, I post too much, and as we all do have an opinion on everything...... heh heh
BrinD
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Explain to me, how if you give 5% of your production, you're "swimming in goods" ??
Does that mean you just hord them and not use them ?? Why would anyone be satisfied
with just thier production, if you trade 1:1 then you ALWAYS are capp'd on YOUR production.
Sometimes people have more factories than they need at the moment, and goods requirements wax and wane through the game. Lulls in research can result in a rapid buildup. I'm currently making 140,000 T1/day, and getting another 35,000/day from decay of S1 goods, and not using any of it, so even though I'm giving away nearly a million a week to FS members for tournaments, I still gain over 200,000/day and have over 11 million on hand. I'm so satisfied with my T1 production that I used teleport spells to dump a couple of T1 factories and only kept three.

Also, some people get satisfaction from facilitating the activities of the people around them. While that is not a common trait in humankind, it's a valid play style. If someone wants to produce more than they need and give it to their friends and neighbours, nobody needs to criticize them for it.

Darielle, you also must have miss'd a comment of mine, where I posted (3) offers... ALL better
than 1:1 for the buyer, so as you say @ a discount... and 1 of the 3 was listed as a 1 star trade.
That means the code of the game can't even do simple math and lies in the display....
If that happened the way you perceived it, then there was a bug, and you should report it. I have never seen the game mark a trade incorrectly like that.


If you wanna get technical.... 100 planks = 110 marble = 116 steel ....
As I've noted on similar posts before, it's not possible to make those comparisons. at best, your technical comparison is valid for your city at this moment in time for the three variables you've selected. There are too many variables, all of them changing regularly, to assign a comparative value with any hope of accuracy. All the game can offer is approximations. How much land the city has, what chapter they are in, how effective their culture balance in (changing how many coin and supplies they make, and therefor the relative value of those, how many in your trading pool are producing what T1 in what proportion, how many people in that pool are catering the current tournament and what mix of goods is required to so.

Your group has only 3 steel producers out of 24 players, that makes steel more valuable unless someone in the group has a good source of steel in their neighbourhood and is diligent about importing it for the group. On the basis of three variables, 100 planks might be worth 116 steel, but with 52% of your fellowship having Planks as their boost, including the three largest cities, I'd be surprised if anyone in that group thinks planks are worth anything close to what steel is.

taking in to account # of tiles need'd and # of pop need'd ... I bet you think they are all equal.
If ppl cannot do simple math ( multiplication and division ) then buy a calculator.....
Those are the kind of comments that causes people to label someone as condescending. It's not feasible to limit a complex system to the variables one person thinks matter, and it's provocative to imply that others are wrong for including other variables and that doing so means they don't understand simple math.
cross tier trading is essential at times and shouldnt be discouraged.
When do you feel it's essential? I don't feel like any of my cities has suffered because I don't place cross-tier trades, but maybe I haven't encountered the particular group of circumstances that lead you to that conclusion.
You also seem to think, in error, that Im just complaining..... have you ever heard of a
discussion/debate ???
Human beings have optimized to look at their oponents as the sum of all observed behviour, and aren't very good isolating the current debate from previous interactions with that debater. Some aspects of even your current debate style can be interpreted as complaining. In aggregate with other recent interactions, it can get a little harder.
Not only is the star system very poorly implemented, but it allows ppl to be bad @ math.
I get it, lowest common demonator , cater to IQ/math challanged players .... but when
the system itself cant do simple math, then how can we players trust what it says ???
As previously, if you can reporduce the system calculating wrong, you should bug report it. That does not sound intentional.

Unfair trades mean different things to different ppl, this thread is for everyone...
and YES its a discussion/debate... not argument.....
And a perfectly valid discussion. But the game has to, in the end, cater to the majority. The majority of current forum participants like the fair-trade-by-star system. Logical, dispassionate, arguments for otherwise should be, and I think are, welcome. Implying people's thinking is wrong, and referring to them as not math-competent and saying they need a calculator because they don't support your postulate of which variables are relevant is neither logical nor dispassionate.


Sure Elvenar can be a niche where trading/economy isn't what it is in other MMOs, but a basic tennent of "trade" is "profit".....
Actually, you are entirely wrong there.

Profit is a basic tenet of capitalism, not trade. Humans (and even other animals) having been trading for millenia without profit being involved for most of it. The only tenet of trade is an even exchange of perceived value. If one person adds value to a good, that trade means they can expect to receive more value when trading it. No one in Elvenar is adding value to any of the goods we trade. Gaining profit purely as a result of scarcity and convenience are tenets of capitalism, not trade. There is nothing anyone in the game has done to make their goods worth more than anyone else's. This is not a game of capitalism, and capitalism was not mentioned in the advertising.

Last Q Darielle, if the current game/system is so great, why are there so many players
that try Elvenar and quit 2 days later
Personally, I think it's the first day, not 2 days later, and that it comes down to the Main Hall upgrade to level three and then four, which are (or were?) required quests, and unlike the ten minute upgrade from one to two, take just under four hours, then five hours, quickly weeding out people who are at all impatient and not willing to drop cash that early in the game.

Maybee this is a case where I'm having a philisophical conversation about a subject, and
people thing its just a complaint thread or a witch session..... Iono
Possibly you are looking at the debate in a restrictive fashion? I think there is a broader discussion going on than the points in which you are most interested.
 
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