Cross-tier trades

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I can't agree, in a system where stars are done by InnoGames, why ANY 2 star trade doesn't meet
most FSs req. of 2/3 star only..... The game calcs the cross part, from there it is what it is.... right ?

Yes, the current system is much fairer than the old system. That change was probably done before you started playing. The bad days of offering 1000 silk for 4000 planks being a 2-star trade, or 1000 gems for 16000 planks being 2-star, are thankfully long gone. Anything in the current system that is 2-star, going either direction, would have been rated as a very good 3-star trade in the old one. There are even plenty of 1-star trades in the new system that would have been good 3-star trades. Before, a trade offering 1000 silk for 2000 planks would have been 3-star, but now it is 1-star. A trade offering 1000 gems for 8000 planks was the same. I have not tested it, but offering 1000 tier 3 for 8000 tier 1 might even be a 0-star trade now, instead of 3-star.

 

[SoggyShorts]

My suggestion is sooo simple:
1. If you like a trade - take it
2. If you don't like a trade - don't take it
3. FSs have no business trying to mess with this human right of choice

One of the reasons I and others fought so hard for years to have a cross-trade filter or a fix to the star ratios was convenience. In a FS that doesn't allow cross trades, it was very quick as a big player to simply snap up ALL of the FS trades when I log in. If I became unbalanced I could post a 500K for 500K trade and another even bigger fish would eventually take it.
If, however, I was to take hundreds of thousands in of cross trades I could easily find myself in a position where I couldn't reverse those trades by taking them to the open market as other big players might not want them.
The new stars and sorting are much improved, but I'm still finding myself having to go slowly to dodge cross-trades.

A well balanced player gets as much from locals as from thier FS.

I've found that a much easier and faster system is for the smallest FS members to post for what they need and the medium players to take all of those while posting for their own needs. The largest players take all FS trades and use their neighbors for balance.
Totally depends on the FS though, YMMV

 

[BrinDarby]

@SoggyShorts ,
Where... balance is achieved... is kinda meaningless, as long as balance is achieved.
I won't get sidetracked with profit/swap, but as long as the 2star req is met.. its much
easier it seems for me to rebalance using all 9 resources.

If a perfectly balanced FS has (8) each producers, and now knowing some possibilities
for boost combos are impossible, ......those ppl have to make thier boost, not just 1 then
crosstrade for the other two....

Its perfectly plausable that after a few caters, players get specifically imbalanced, and
the easiest way to rebalance is offer the 2 goods they have the most of for the 2 goods
they seem lacking in.... because if all are 2 star trades, noone is losing anything by
cross trading... AND as you say if the biggest players cleanup, then clearing away ohhhh...
lets say 50-100k of offers, is basically unbalancing them by 1 trade, cause they would be
normally trading 100k and above offers to other big fish....

Do I think the trade system, as a whole, needs a tweak... why yes I do.... but thats not the topic.
Since the game blatently uses the star system it controls, and FSs have the 2/3 star req posted,
then I see no logical reason why a cross tier trade is bad, other than an xtra rule for that.
The goods ratio is set by Inno, therefore equally fair across the board.....

Because, if you want to go against Inno, then lets really talk turkey..... Actual costs for goods.
basically tier independant... and really, then 3rd rule would be "use Inno's ratios", but only if
rule 2 wasn't there.....

I don't understand why the playerbase is effectively nerfing themselves the trade system, yet
seem to complain alot when Inno does it to their precious 4 yr old bldgs/AWs..... Have your darn
2/3 star rule, but as long as you use Inno's ratios, why nerf trading diversity ???

 

[T6583]

I see alotta value in most FSs having 2-3 traders
such as myself. If a player is a team player, is active, & contributes.... why isn't that enuff ??

Most FS do have multiple traders. That's not the issue. There's alot more to it to run a successful FS. Having like minded players is huge. If you have some players who want to go for gold, or 10 chests, or rank in the FA and some players who don't then you're going to have issues. When it comes to trades as others have mentioned balancing of goods is important as well. Unfortuantly there are people out there who only post cross trades because they don't have any of those factories. Plus one of the benefits of being in an FS is trading. Alot of AM's try to keep a balanced FS for trading. Also alot of us do trade with our neighbors. I actually have trade agreements with some of my neighbors where we message each other if we're in need of a particular resource. Those relationships take time to build. I personally also post trades get rid of excess goods and or to bring goods we are short of into the FS. I know I'm not the only one who does that. There's also how people see someone as being a team player. I've had issues where I've had to remove a player who was great in spire, tourney, FA etc because of personality differences and drama. Good AM's look at alot of different factors when trying to select players. City size can also come into play as well. I have alot of players that have been with us a long time that started in Ch 2 or 3 with us who are now in Ch 15. For balanced trading and with a higher demand for sentient goods now, smaller cities can't keep up or help with some of the trading demands. And unfortuantly due to the high demand for certain sentient goods this has now become a factor for some FS as well. Some of us even help each other out where we might get an applicant that we feel would be a better fit for another FS and send that applicant that way. I consider Kekune a friend. We both run highly successful FS. We both have different things that we look for in a player. We both try to feel out a players personality to see if it will fit with our group as no one wants to deal with drama if they don't have too. Other's here also run highly successful FS and have completely different approaches.

 

[ajqtrz]

@Kekune ,
Even tho I'm set up for Spire/Tourn, I'm relegated to off beat FSs, cause the 10 chest FSs
I guess don't see value in a 7 day a week player, such as myself.... and my guess is....
the few "chatty" alliances I crave, are those super competative FSs that also have trade rules.
So I'm sittn bored on the sidelines......

As a 10 Chest fs I'm not sure about the idea that "the 10 chest FS's, .... don't see the value of a 7 day a week player, such as myself." I've never run into that attitude unless you are under some kind of minimum size. Our minimum is 20k but our smallest player is at about 120k. The reason for the minimum is exactly the need to have well balanced goods production. Below that the amount being produced is so so small the player cannot reasonably contribute to all our members, including our large ones. We only ask, and I think this is more the norm, that cross tier trades have a bit of a bonus...don't care how much, it can be +1 for all we care...because, as it used to be anyway, it's a way of saying "thank-you" for taking them. Most of our players adhere to this without a problem. We do have trade codes, - 0 for just balancing my goods, 1 for need it NOW for tournament or something really important, 4 for special trade -- if it's not "four" you, don't take it, and 9 for "foreign" trades to bring in that of which we are short. We do have a minimum of 1200 tournament points per week (averaged over the last 4 weeks) but we also give new members months to work up to that level. Are our "rules" too difficult? Does that make us "super competitive?" I don't think in either case that's true. I think most fellowships have goals but most are not to be ranked #1 so much as to be constantly improving. To do that you do have to have rules and requirements. Perhaps the "off beat" are "off beat" exactly because they are weakly structured?

And if you can believe I would be part of a non-chatty fs, LOL.

AJ

 

[BrinDarby]

@ajqtrz ,
Then Im lost...
I just wanna log 2-3 times a day for a couple hrs, and chit chat/make friends while I play....
I want to have stuff to do, but that doesn't mean necessarilly move up Chapters. I've posted
my stats/production in other posts.... Is there really no place for me here ???
BrinD

 

[Ashrem]

@SoggyShorts ,
Where... balance is achieved... is kinda meaningless, as long as balance is achieved.
I won't get sidetracked with profit/swap, but as long as the 2star req is met.. its much
easier it seems for me to rebalance using all 9 resources.

If a perfectly balanced FS has (8) each producers, and now knowing some possibilities
for boost combos are impossible, ......those ppl have to make thier boost, not just 1 then
crosstrade for the other two....

Its perfectly plausable that after a few caters, players get specifically imbalanced, and
the easiest way to rebalance is offer the 2 goods they have the most of for the 2 goods
they seem lacking in.... because if all are 2 star trades, noone is losing anything by
cross trading... AND as you say if the biggest players cleanup, then clearing away ohhhh...
lets say 50-100k of offers, is basically unbalancing them by 1 trade, cause they would be
normally trading 100k and above offers to other big fish....

Do I think the trade system, as a whole, needs a tweak... why yes I do.... but thats not the topic.
Since the game blatently uses the star system it controls, and FSs have the 2/3 star req posted,
then I see no logical reason why a cross tier trade is bad, other than an xtra rule for that.
The goods ratio is set by Inno, therefore equally fair across the board.....

Because, if you want to go against Inno, then lets really talk turkey..... Actual costs for goods.
basically tier independant... and really, then 3rd rule would be "use Inno's ratios", but only if
rule 2 wasn't there.....

I don't understand why the playerbase is effectively nerfing themselves the trade system, yet
seem to complain alot when Inno does it to their precious 4 yr old bldgs/AWs..... Have your darn
2/3 star rule, but as long as you use Inno's ratios, why nerf trading diversity ???

Often we don't see or understand things because we aren't aware of, and looking at, everything. We keep trying to apply analyses without a full understanding of the inputs, and most often while completely ignoring the sinks. The current ratings are a huge improvement over the past, but still don't take into account the assorted special production buildings and the differences in negotiating requirements for provinces, tournaments and spire. None of us (players) know the balance of goods in the world, but people in later chapters have a better feel for it than those who are not.

Your trade guestimates aren't even in the right order of magnitude. Clearing my FS's trades just now involved over 1.8 million T1, 300k T2 and 400k T3 (plus another 50k total of S1, S2 and S3) If I also took the cross tier trades, I'd have another 200k T1 and be down 88k T3. the problem is, even though I make more T3 than I do anything else, I still have 5 times as much T1 as T3 (44 million to 8 million) My FS needs to produce more T3, and if I take their T1 for T3 offers, they don't have to. And rebalancing after the trades I did take requires me finding over a million marble even though I'm producing over 80k marble per day. That's twelve 100k trades offers requesting marble. Producing it myself will take 15 days running full tilt. Meanwhile, one of my FS mates is offering 80k marble for dust So when a neighbour of theirs grabs that, the FS will have 80k less marble (which I think it is already short on, but not as short as we are on T3, so it might be a blessing in disguise.

Further, the assumption that large players automatically have enough neighbours to take any random 100k trade they offer (let alone 12) is flawed. I have exactly three active-trading neighbours capable of taking my trades of 100k plus, and none of them seem to have access to large marble reserves. My large marble requests sometimes drop off after a week, having never been accepted. So asserting that big players can just suck up whatever other feel like dumping and deal with it is an error.

 

[ajqtrz]

@ajqtrz ,
Then Im lost...
I just wanna log 2-3 times a day for a couple hrs, and chit chat/make friends while I play....
I want to have stuff to do, but that doesn't mean necessarilly move up Chapters. I've posted
my stats/production in other posts.... Is there really no place for me here ???
BrinD

I do think, hidden in the various posts, is the nub of a problem. How does one meet others in this game? There is no "universal" or "world" chat, so it's up to you to reach out. Many, many, are not good at that and it's time consuming. With thousands and thousands of players, it's a bit like having one ripe apple in a barrel of apples and, blindfolded, you get to pick it out. Chances are pretty slim you'll get it on the first try, the second try, or even the third. Usually we settle for a "reasonable" fit in our fs and quietly endure what it has or lacks because there is no easy way to get to know other players.

I didn't get lucky in my first fs. I didn't even know the person who invited me, but later found out they were having a lot of turn over (4 AM's in 2 weeks, and going from number 32 to 60 through loss of members). So when I got there I just sort of hunkered down and waited for the dust settle, never expecting it settle on me! Up to that time, about 2 years, I think, I was solo. I am now part of a wonderful, vibrant and very active fs, growing and having fun doing so. But it was a long haul job and WE had to work hard to get there. That meant some weeding, some cajoling, some training, and all that. The point is, this is still my first and only fs. It is what it is because WE worked to make it that way. We, the leadership, transformed it. So, I guess I'm saying, you'll probably never find an ideal fellowship just waiting for you to show up. Take what you have and work at transforming it into your own vision. And if it's not going where you want to go and not interested in going where you want to go, get off the bus! Other buses are on the road and one of them will stop and pick you up. You may have to stand by the road a bunch of times with your thumb out but eventually you will fine the bus to Toledo, or to where ever you wish to arrive.

AJ

 

[Kekune]

Even tho I'm set up for Spire/Tourn, I'm relegated to off beat FSs, cause the 10 chest FSs
I guess don't see value in a 7 day a week player, such as myself.... and my guess is....
the few "chatty" alliances I crave, are those super competative FSs that also have trade rules.
So I'm sittn bored on the sidelines......

Since you connected this to a comment about my fellowship (which doesn't ban cross-tier) I assume you mean you want to offer 0 and 1-stars. If you've decided that doing that regularly in a slower group is better/more important for your city than trading fairly and getting access to a 10-chest, highly active group...I won't try to persuade you otherwise.

The new stars and sorting are much improved, but I'm still finding myself having to go slowly to dodge cross-trades.

This is a big part of it, for us. Trading is a pain. Trading is more of a pain when you have to take extra care with every trade not to take something you don't want. Frankly, trade limits just make the game more enjoyable for some of us by reducing an in-game stressor. Do I actually care if any of our fellows profits on their trades? Not especially, and at this stage we're in pretty good shape to absorb whatever weird trades people want to make. But it sure would be an annoyance to a lot of us in picking through the trader, so there's a rule to trade fair unless you've arranged otherwise.

 

[Aritra]

...... I actually still visit their cities once in a while for a peek and know they're not doing it to take advantage.

What do you look for regarding signs of taking advantage? What does that mean?
If I had to guess, you'd look for having several manufactories, demonstrating they shouldn't have much/any need so accepting trades that aren't needed are monopolizing (keeping goods away from those who actually need it)???
But you tell me. I'm guessin' here.

 

[Iyapo1]

I have a chapter 3 city. I have 16 t1 manufactories, 5 t2s, 1 t3. I am overproducing T2s pretty significantly and overproducing T3s mildly. I run out of T1s. I end up sitting waiting on production cycles for T1s.

As an individual player I will absolutely NOT trade my t1s for t2s or t3s. I need my t1s more. So expecting other players to trade their t1s for my t2/3s regularly is imo unreasonable. I figure they need their t1s too.

 

[BrinDarby]

@Kekune ,
as this convo would get off topic, I will contact you personally.
BrinD

 

[StarLoad]

I have a chapter 3 city. I have 16 t1 manufactories, 5 t2s, 1 t3. I am overproducing T2s pretty significantly and overproducing T3s mildly. I run out of T1s. I end up sitting waiting on production cycles for T1s.

As an individual player I will absolutely NOT trade my t1s for t2s or t3s. I need my t1s more. So expecting other players to trade their t1s for my t2/3s regularly is imo unreasonable. I figure they need their t1s too.

I think someone needs to update their T1's but that is a separate discussion

 

[Iyapo1]

I think someone needs to update their T1's but that is a separate discussion

Not much to discuss. Reach the tech, unlock the tech, upgrade.

I am an elf in chapter 3. My next t1 tech is in the middle of chapter 4.

 

[Kekune]

What do you look for regarding signs of taking advantage? What does that mean?

She said she doesn't much like cross-tier trades, but does it to help. In that context, "taking advantage" would be like what KarlD described earlier in the thread: someone who doesn't ever try to balance their production (or even sells one tier off entirely) because they can simply rely on someone else to take their cross-tier trades.

 

[shimmerfly]

@Aritra
Exactly what @Kekune said. There are a few people that never offer anything but Gems (for example) and they offer them unfairly and cross-tiered. Always.
I would not take that trade because it's simply not fair to others who do make and offer the "right" tiered good.
I have to admit I've only read bits and pieces of this thread so if I'm goofy on this then ...well I am goofy!

 

[StarLoad]

Not much to discuss. Reach the tech, unlock the tech, upgrade.

I am an elf in chapter 3. My next t1 tech is in the middle of chapter 4.

Unless my memory is totally wrong your T1 Should be able to upgrade to level 10+ and never will the maximum be higher for the T2 than the T1.
less Steel mfg and at higher levels will make more and take up less space.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@SoggyShorts ,
Where... balance is achieved... is kinda meaningless, as long as balance is achieved.
I won't get sidetracked with profit/swap, but as long as the 2star req is met.. its much
easier it seems for me to rebalance using all 9 resources

Yes, it is easier for you, but not your fellowship.

Here's how many of us see it:
Player 1 has designed their city in such a way that they produce enough T1, T2, and T3 for their needs, and only need same tier 1:1 swaps.
Player 2 has lop-sided production and requires cross trades to get enough goods for their needs.

If player 1 takes those cross trades then they become unbalanced and have to find another player either in the FS or on the map willing to take on the burden of being unbalanced, and then that player has to do so as well- repeat repeat repeat until the music stops and someone doesn't have a chair to sit on.

The alternative, where everyone aims for balance within their own city, removes this issue entirely.

 

[samidodamage]

Unless my memory is totally wrong

Your memory must be for humans. Human steel goes up to lvl 10 with Ch3 tech. Elves don't get the tech to upgrade steel to lvl 9 until Ch4. Elven scrolls gets lvl 9 with the Ch3 tech. So, elves have factory levels that are pretty inconsistent in the early chapters.
By the time I started my elven city that has a steel boost, I'd been playing over a year, so I don't recall having as much of an issue with steel. I also joined an FS there with players in a range of chapters instead of one with everyone around my same level.
I do remember having Marble issues in my first city when I was new. The cities in my FS were small as well (I remember the AM had lvl 15 residences and they were so pretty and I wondered if I'd ever get there, lol!) I also thought I had zero interest in the combat option of the game. I wasn't even training troops unless it was for a quest! By the time I started my 2nd city, I was almost 100% combat in the first city and intended the same for my 2nd city. That makes a huge difference in demands on goods! In my first city at that level, I needed goods for every. single. thing. It was hard!

 

[StarLoad]

Thanks, Samidodamage for the correction.