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    Your Elvenar Team

Fellowship Only Trades

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
It would be great to have a way to post trades for your fellowship only.

Pros: It would help newer players get the 'uneven' trades they might need.
It would be great in the Fellowship Adventures when making the spell badges

Cons: I can't think of any. It would be optional, so you could choose not to use the option.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Cons:
Wrecks the trader for new players who haven't joined a FS yet, and any player not wanting to be in a FS.
Also, really hurts most non-self-sufficient or imbalanced fellowships who rely on neighbors to take trades.

Basically, this would massively reduce the number of trades available in the world and inno has said they will not implement this idea ever for that reason.


Also, you already can make FS only trades by simply posting 8:1 offers.

For example:
Dave wants to give Mike 8,000 steel for 1,000 planks.

Mike posts the trade offering his 1,000 planks and waits for Dave to take it. This is effectively a FS only trade since no player outside the FS is going to take it.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
@SoggyShorts Yes I see your point, but I was thinking it could be an optional thing. But I suppose that anything is open for abuse. I was mostly thinking of being able to post fair trades or for a member putting up that trade at 8:1 but posted by the person who was offering the 8
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I agree with SoulsSilhouette. A simple check box on a trade I wish only my FS to see, would all that would be needed. You could put it in the "confirm" box or even in the "place offer" box and then, when the trades were brought up by somebody not in your fs, your "fs trade only" would be filtered out. It would be, in essence, an extension of the "fs only" check box when looking for trades.

As far as those not in an fs or too small and needing neighbors to trade with, the only trades which would not be shown to them would be those marked for fs only and I suspect those wouldn't be that many. In FA's this would be an advantage as the trades needed for Wands, Potions, and Hats, clutter up the trade board and are often "stolen" by neighbors (though usually by mistake, I might add).

And, while you can prevent others from trading with you by making the ratio way expensive, you wouldn't have to do that if you could just restrict the trade to your fs. Sometimes you just want to trade with somebody in your fs at and even amount.

AJ
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
It's not so much about abuse. FS members are going to be inclined to always offer trades to the FS first, which will reduce the pool for solo players. The game already has significant retention problems. Anything that makes the world look emptier than it already does is going to make retention worse.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
@Ashrem that's true, but I guess from my perspective... I would use both options. One for a member who needed the trades but when I'm not online, I could leave them in the queue for them to pick up when they were online. I play FoE and exercise the guild only option for trades that I am putting up specifically for another guild member and all my other trades are out there to be picked up by anyone. But I guess if fellowships were going to be that restrictive, then it would be an issue.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I don't think Fellowships will be deliberately restrictive, I just think the things already in short supply will rarely get seen by other players because in-group trading will be preferred as a matter of course. The Top example is going to platinum. If a group has a couple of platinum producers, their trades will probably never reach the public, making the current shortage worse.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
As far as those not in an fs or too small and needing neighbors to trade with, the only trades which would not be shown to them would be those marked for fs only and I suspect those wouldn't be that many.
I dunno, personally I would always mark all trades FS only and then repost them for neighbors if they lingered for a week and fell off.
This is especially true for my cities where I always post 3-star trades- currently, those are taken 50-50 but given the option I'd absolutely post FS only first. The same goes for sentiments as well.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I dunno, personally I would always mark all trades FS only and then repost them for neighbors if they lingered for a week and fell off.
This is especially true for my cities where I always post 3-star trades- currently, those are taken 50-50 but given the option I'd absolutely post FS only first. The same goes for sentiments as well.

Yeah, I could see doing that with 3 star trades. But the way you have to do it now to be sure your fs partner gets the trade is to make it a one star or no star trade...and even then it's sometimes taken. The addition of an "fs only" would solve that problem and allow you to actually give resources to your smaller members by posting them at three or four stars and not worrying if somebody outside the fs was to take them. If I wanted to start a new "training fellowship" with my resources at the disposal of the new, small players, it would be ideal.

I don't think Fellowships will be deliberately restrictive, I just think the things already in short supply will rarely get seen by other players because in-group trading will be preferred as a matter of course. The Top example is going to platinum. If a group has a couple of platinum producers, their trades will probably never reach the public, making the current shortage worse.

I'm not convinced of this. The amount of any resource produced and consumed by the world as a whole is X. Of that your fs produces Y. If you produce more than you need, you will distribute it outside your group. If you produce less, you will buy it outside your group. It's not a matter of access, since access to outside markets is not closed, it's a matter of preference. If you prefer to sell in your group, you can. If not, you don't have to. The current system works by you "overpricing" your goods to restrict "outsiders" from purchasing them until your group can do so...presumably with some kind of arrangement to "balance" the purchase with another or something. The current system accomplishes (mostly) the same thing purposely arranging the price of goods outside the perceived current market value even though on occasion the "current market value" is a lot higher than expected and thus the "outsiders" swoop in and take the trade anyway. This suggestion bypasses this market force and, instead, uses market access to accomplish the same thing. But in this suggestion the whole thing is easier and more certain as the poster does not have to consider what the "real" cost of the goods are and therefore doesn't have to price them far enough away from the "current market price" to insure they aren't taken by the outsider.

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
The addition of an "fs only" would solve that problem and allow you to actually give resources to your smaller members by posting them at three or four stars and not worrying if somebody outside the fs was to take them. If I wanted to start a new "training fellowship" with my resources at the disposal of the new, small players, it would be ideal.
But your FS members know better than you what goods would help them most, so doesn't the current system where they ask for zero star trades work just as well if not better than you offering?
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I'm not convinced of this. The amount of any resource produced and consumed by the world as a whole is X. Of that your fs produces Y. If you produce more than you need, you will distribute it outside your group. If you produce less, you will buy it outside your group. It's not a matter of access, since access to outside markets is not closed, it's a matter of preference. If you prefer to sell in your group, you can. If not, you don't have to. The current system works by you "overpricing" your goods to restrict "outsiders"
Couple of problems there. One, production and consumption aren't the same. Two, there isn't the same amount of everything. Most worlds have an imbalance of the same couple of goods most of the time.

Setting all of that aside, if people weren't likely to prefer offering trades for their Fellowship, then why do people ask for it over and over again?
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Couple of problems there. One, production and consumption aren't the same. Two, there isn't the same amount of everything. Most worlds have an imbalance of the same couple of goods most of the time.

Setting all of that aside, if people weren't likely to prefer offering trades for their Fellowship, then why do people ask for it over and over again?

Exactly. People want an option to trade strictly with their fs. They can do that now, effectively, by offering goods at much higher than perceived market value. But that's wasteful and/or a convoluted way to achieve the goal. It would be easier and more efficient to simply have that option in the form of a check box.

In addition, if production and consumption were the same within one's fellowship, there would be little trading outside one's fellowship. But because both inside the fellowship and, in general across the server, there are imbalances in production and consumption, goods move from inside one fellowship to others, outside, and in reverse. This suggestion would not affect that much at all since, in most cases, trades are already taken by those in your fellowship (assuming you have an active one). In the cases where the fellowship isn't that active, the poster has the ability to leave the check box unchecked so nothing is really lost. This gives the option to the trader to keep the goods in his/her fellowship, thus helping keep his/her fellowship more balanced, without resorting to using one or no star trades -- which probably imbalance things in the fellowship anyway though the imbalance is probably minor.

Thus, this option would have the advantages of helping fellowships keep a better balance of goods, helping fellowships keep their FA trades from disappearing, helping individuals actually assist other players in their fellowship without worrying that the 3 star trade they just posted for their fellowship mate won't be grabbed by someone outside their fellowship, and it will keep the trade board from being overwhelmed with FA trades

But your FS members know better than you what goods would help them most, so doesn't the current system where they ask for zero star trades work just as well if not better than you offering?

You are right about what they know, but think about what the smaller and younger players might not know. If a new, inexperienced, or uninformed player doesn't know that there are event quests that tell him to acquire X goods, when he/she discovers the need he/she must post a 1-0 star trade to get those goods. Wouldn''t it be nice and much easier of the fellowship posted those goods ahead of time? I the quest says "acquire 500 planks" and it's already posted for the fellowship as 500 planks for 100 steel (and one would suppose another as 500 planks for 100 marble), the new, inexperienced, or uninformed player wouldn't have to ask at all. Just as in an FA where we post 0 or 1 star trades for 100 planks, 100 silk and/or 100 elixer, so in events and other quests, we could stock the fellowship only trades ahead of the needs. More efficient AND encouraging of more interaction/teamwork. The current system asks the new, inexperienced and/or uninformed player to know what they may not know while a new system would allow the more experienced players to assist those new, inexperienced, and/or uninformed players without their even knowing it. In that way we encourage those players to remain playing the game too.

The more I think about this the more I like the idea. I hope you are moving in that direction too.

AJ
 

Deleted User - 4684565

Guest
Here's what I do in my fellowship especially during an event if I need a certain amount of something for example I let my fellowship know ahead of time that im putting up a trade so that my fellowship can grab it before any outsider can grab it , it's called communication with your fellowship
Here's a problem with some fellowships there is a lack of communication and I have been in some fellowships that don't communicate so I leave that fellowship and find one that does To me communication is vital especially during an event if you want to have a awesome fellowship you have to communicate with you're members talk to you're members let them know when you are putting up a trade
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Exactly. People want an option to trade strictly with their fs. They can do that now, effectively, by offering goods at much higher than perceived market value. But that's wasteful and/or a convoluted way to achieve the goal. It would be easier and more efficient to simply have that option in the form of a check box.
People want all kinds of things, most of which either make the game easier for everyone, or make the game easier for their play style. Neither of those things is good justification for a change. This will absolutely disadvantage the thousands of players who are not in fellowships, and the thousands more who are in small fellowships who will practically never again see three star trade offers as those will pretty much always end up being internal.

Fellowship-only trades is 100% about keeping the good stuff for your friends and close to 0% about making the game more interesting.
 

Deleted User - 4684565

Guest
I agree Ashrem
You got to keep the game interesting if you don't people will get bored and leave I say leave it like it is
There's an old saying If It Ain't Broke Leave It Alone
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
the new, inexperienced, or uninformed player wouldn't have to ask at all. Just as in an FA where we post 0 or 1 star trades for 100 planks, 100 silk and/or 100 elixer, so in events and other quests, we could stock the fellowship only trades ahead of the needs. More efficient AND encouraging of more interaction/teamwork. The current system asks the new, inexperienced and/or uninformed player to know what they may not know while a new system would allow the more experienced players to assist those new, inexperienced, and/or uninformed players without their even knowing it.
^^Bolding is mine
I'm not quite sure how creating a situation that requires no communication and assists uninformed players without their knowledge encourages interaction or helps those players gain knowledge. I much prefer having a conversation and discussing how things work. To me, that is interaction, teamwork, and helps the new, inexperienced and uninformed players gain knowledge and game skills.
I also don't want my Notifications window to turn into mostly 'somebody accepted your trade'. While needed modifications to that window would be a different topic, this change would make a bad situation worse there as well.
I've found that when FA badge trades are taken all at once by a neighbor, they usually think they're 'helping' me by getting me some goods I need. How did I find that out? By sending a message and opening up a conversation with them. I've developed trading relationships between myself and neighbors by doing this. Sometimes those 0 or 1 star trades for badges are taken by a small city, probably because they need them. I then send a message letting them know I have discovered them, thus see their trades without a trader fee and will take their trades so they don't *need* to take the expensive ones. I also let them know they can message me when they post the trades so they won't have to wait long. Does that stop players from snapping up the FA badge trades? No. It does, however, create more communication and develops relationships. This takes time and effort. It won't satisfy any desire for immediate gratification, but the payoffs over the long run are huge. That fits with my view of this game as a marathon, not a sprint.
It's going to be hard to convince me to support an idea that limits these opportunities.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
This is a cooperative game.

Limiting trades to only the fellowship is a non-cooperative thing to do.
It has a load of issues attached to it whom most are already adressed above.

There is no reason to debate this option in any shape or form as it will never ever happen.
Unless they are dead set on killing the game off ASAP.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
I respectfully disagree @CrazyWizard ... I think everything should be discussed. Since when is any issue off-limits? I see other people's perspectives, but it's not a non-cooperative thing.

One great advantage that hasn't been mentioned... not everyone is playing this game all the time. Someone shoots me a message about needing a trade, I want to give them that trade, but we can't be online at the same time... it's a way of communicating and protecting the trade at the same time. I wouldn't mind a private trade option for anyone in my neighborhoods who needs my help. I go through my trader and will take zero star trades from new players that are just developing. I send them a welcome to my 'hood message and invite them to shoot me a message if they need anything.

There are many aspects to this. I see how afraid people are about the abuse and I've acknowledged that I didn't look at the issue from that perspective. But to say it shouldn't be discussed is just sort of outrageous.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
People want all kinds of things, most of which either make the game easier for everyone, or make the game easier for their play style. Neither of those things is good justification for a change. This will absolutely disadvantage the thousands of players who are not in fellowships, and the thousands more who are in small fellowships who will practically never again see three star trade offers as those will pretty much always end up being internal.

Fellowship-only trades is 100% about keeping the good stuff for your friends and close to 0% about making the game more interesting.

That the three star trades will "pretty much always end up being internal" to the fellowship may be true -- or not. Generally speaking my three star trades go outside the fellowship exactly because I use them to draw needed resources into the fellowship. Why would you expect your fellowshipmates to pay extra for goods you offer? If the point of the fellowship is to help each other making your fellowship pay more is hardly helpful, and if you are offering three star trades to get something isn't it exactly because no one in your fellowship is offering you a two star or below for the same goods? And if the basic premise that three star trades will "pretty much always end up being internal" is wrong, then the inferences that it "disadvantages" "thousands of players who are not in fellowships and the thousands more who are in small fellowships" is also wrong.

Think carefully about 3 star trades. In my experience they are usually done for two reasons: 1) To bring in resources to a fellowship (or more precisely, perhaps, to increase the number of people seeing my need and encouraging them to meet my need -- in the fellowship or out); and 2) to assist a smaller player who has a need but not the matching amounts needed to trade for that need. In the first case the 3 star trade doesn't change as the intended audience is both inside and outside the fellowship and all will see it. In the second, the intended audience is inside the fellowship (most of the time I would think anyway) and thus to "advertise" the three star trade outside the fellowship is counter-productive. It's not just a matter of making it easier, but of making it reach it's intended audience. The trades are, in essence, advertisements and thus to target the right audience is important.

Let's say though, we continue with things as they are. I want to give one of my fellowship mates a boost by providing him/her some extra goods. Right now I can guess what they need, anticipate what they might need, or wait for them to post their need -- either in a message or in a 1 or no star trade. If I guess and post at 3 star levels I can only hope they see it before somebody takes it. Ditto to the "anticipation" route. If I post a three star level trade to a large audience it's usually taken pretty fast. So, in addition to guessing and anticipating their needs, I now have to guess and anticipate when they will be on line, and when they will check the trades. Of course another way to do this is to engage in a conversation with my fellowship mate about what he/she might need. Great! Except many of the new/inexperienced/uninformed players aren't aware of the traditions of the game (where older and more advanced players are willing to share), and in fact are often not even aware of the "star system" enough to make those kinds of trades and thus don't know how or where to make their needs known. You can, of course, assume they don't know all this and reach out to them to give them instructions about trading and all that, but really? How many AM's actually do that consistently?

The point is that a system of restricting the advertising of your trade to those with whom you want to trade, is more efficient can be used to encourage new/inexperienced/uninformed players to stay around.

Here's what I do in my fellowship especially during an event if I need a certain amount of something for example I let my fellowship know ahead of time that im putting up a trade so that my fellowship can grab it before any outsider can grab it , it's called communication with your fellowship
Here's a problem with some fellowships there is a lack of communication and I have been in some fellowships that don't communicate so I leave that fellowship and find one that does To me communication is vital especially during an event if you want to have a awesome fellowship you have to communicate with you're members talk to you're members let them know when you are putting up a trade

The key phrase is "I let my fellowship know ahead of time that I'm putting up a trade so that my fellowship can grab it before any outsider can grab it." You have an intention that it be grabbed by your fellowship. You don't have any way to protect it from somebody else grabbing it. Thus, the trade you envision has the potential of being twarted by the system. What if you are in a small fellowship in which your and our fellowship mates are seldom on line at the same time? What if you are a new/inexperienced/uninformed player and don't know how or that you can inform others "ahead of time?" How many players go searching when they are small for trades they can take to meet their needs only to find there are none? If I were in a fellowship with new/inexperienced/uninformed players and I could restrict a trade to my fellowship I'd fill the board with all kinds of favorable trades for those new/inexperienced/uninformed players and thus encourage them to grow. And then, having done that, I'd send them a message about those trades and why they are there. But I can't do that now since my neighbors will take those favorable trades long before my fellowship mates arrive on the scene.

Now of course, "lack of communication" is an idea that needs attention. We want to encourage communications, right? And certainly if there are a bunch of trades up to meet my needs I'm not going to be sending out messages about those needs. On the other hand, if I'm in a fellowship of new/inexperienced/uninformed players isn't it more my job as a veteran/experienced/informed player to initiate messages? And wouldn't those receiving messages from me about the favorable trades I've been posting -- be better received, instructive and encouraging than waiting for them to tell me what they need? New/inexperienced/uninformed players need encouragement and that doesn't come easily in the current system.

Thus, there are two great reasons to adopt this idea. First, it protects trades and makes them go where they are intended without risking their going to other players. Second, it provides a way to actually encourage the new/inexperienced/uninformed player, again, without risking goods flowing in directions the poster does not wish. Neither of these are trivial and while they might be somewhat reflective of how I try to play the game (i.e. encouraging others to grow and be excited about being here rather than discouraged), they are good reasons to add a check box to the system to restrict trades to fellowship only.

AJ
 
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