Tournament Changes

[Deleted User - 1178646]

You know, it seems to me (YMMV, etc) that the players who are screaming the loudest about the new tournament are the ones who were playing mostly to farm KP by the hundreds, and I have to wonder: Maybe that's the point? I fully agree that if that was in fact a design goal (never mind a major design goal) that should've been communicated up front. It wasn't; nobody can do anything about that omission now, although -- again, if -- my speculation is correct, admitting it might go a bit toward alleviating some of the hurt feelings?

Those massive kp gains were a result of, not the main goal.
If you did enjoy the tournaments the KP came on it's own.

I have played the tournaments since the start at the time you could win first place with 14 provinces. the KP were nice but not massive in any sense.
Over time we grew stronger, and we optimised our towns, most was under control, with the exception of chapter 4 accounts ruling the tournaments.

Then came the fire phoenix, and we were finally were able to beat those 26 province 7020 points chapter 4 accounts on a structural basis.
Again all was peachy from that point.

Then come the introduction of the brown bear(s) + spire.
This is the combination that skyrocket results from ~30-40 provinces to 80-90+ and created this massive 800+KP from a tournament issue.
This is the point where it went all haywire.

Now if you are one of the unlucky fellows that worked there ass off, you are now punished beyond reason.
Some people not at that stage do 40 provinces without a lot of effort.

Today I did 40 provinces, and lost 2900+ units, thats twenty nine hundred or a unit weight of ~10.800.000 units or ten million eight hundredthousand units.

Even with 3 brown bears, and level 35 needles, flying academy and victory springs and simia sapiens and hundreds of hours of time boosters a week i am still unable to recoup that loss. Imagine not owning 3 brown bears. we are then talking about ~20-25 provinces max
That will not even get you in the top 100 or even 200 of players. so you would go from T10 to outside T200 without a bunch of bears.

Those that "scream the hardest" are mostly competitive tournament players, and there main concern aren't the KP.
It's the fact that
A. progress is no longer a guarantee as advancing beyond a point only degrades your results whjch kills the fun.
B. Competition is killed with this setup with a difference in difficulty of up to 150x (note that for the 150 factor special towns need to be build that take time) but even now we see difference of in excess of 10x between players within the same chapter.

This is what the bigges screamers are complaining about, the thrill of competing agains other players, either on the top, or at visibly improving your results vs the competition, reaching T100, T50, T25, T20, T10 or becomming first depending on your goal.
That was just thrown in the garbage bin because of huge differences between players.
This stand in no contrast to the non mandatory SS-research which many, many, many complained about over the years (and even quit the game as once researched you could not revert that choice, does this sound familiar?) , this version is like the non-mandatory SS but then to the power of insanity
They acknowledged the issue and then created a monster thats literally more than a hundred times worse.

This is why we are whining, not because the lost KP thats more an issue for the "somewhat contenders" not the top contenders.

@Nightguest the quote earlier is from muf-muf on the international forums, he has only 2 posts there recently.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

just for lols on the internation forums the following quote was posted from a CM/Dev meeting.

More provinces are being completed and more players are starting to manual battle rather than auto due to feeling they have more time to do so.

I think this quote alone shows how far away the devs are from there very active playerbase.
I still have to find the first player who started to do manual in the new format "because they have more time now"
They do this (and spend tons of extra time) because it's the only way to compensate for the imbalance.

outside the few that just love to manually fight, most people prefer autocombat, not everyone can spend 10-20 hours on manual combat or have the stamina each week.
From 2-3 hours autocombat to 10-20 hours is not because we have "more time" but because we feel forced to go this route to stay competitive.

 

[Pheryll]

You know, it seems to me (YMMV, etc) that the players who are screaming the loudest about the new tournament are the ones who were playing mostly to farm KP by the hundreds, and I have to wonder: Maybe that's the point? I fully agree that if that was in fact a design goal (never mind a major design goal) that should've been communicated up front. It wasn't; nobody can do anything about that omission now, although -- again, if -- my speculation is correct, admitting it might go a bit toward alleviating some of the hurt feelings?

The before and after for the new tournament implementation may be a distraction from the main issue referenced below.

The issue that I wanted to bring up is that though I want to verify the accuracy of the formula, right now I cannot as there are far too many things that I need to verify for myself. Honestly speaking, it would be epic if it was right (or at least very close to being) as that would make our jobs so much easier, so while I study the intended parts, I am rooting for Min

The calculation of City Advancement Level (an internal term that the dataminers picked up on) has been weighing down spire performance even before the new tournament system was implemented. That it is now also used in the tournament has some deep rooted issues that may cause significant problems for both players and Elvenar staff in the not too distant future.

1) The research term (exponential in nature) continues to increase the challenge faster than the training speed can keep up from building upgrades. In the later chapters there is no expectation for any combat improvement besides military building upgrades from upcoming chapters. If players decide to not do chapter 17 and following because it will only hinder their spire and tournament performance, then there may not be enough players able to generate the T7-T9 goods when chapters 18-20 arrive. While the total effect of the equation can be tweaked and adjusted each chapter to prevent the troop/good cost from becoming excessive, doing so would largely result in making the difficulty for the mid chapters much easier so long as the general form for the equation remains the same.

2) The multiplication of each factor leads to them increasing the difficulty by the same percent no matter how far one has progressed. This gives no impetus for players to move to a new chapter, as whatever ancient wonder or city expansion gains they achieve will be just as costly in the next chapter where they will be anticipated to have more space and potentially more wonder levels. Locking oneself in on a mid chapter, such as orcs, may prove a very easy way to dominate the tournament high scores with relatively easy battles throughout.

 

[DeletedUser19418]

Captain's log, USS Elvenar- Arendyll (NCC-1701), 2020

We are being mercilessly attacked by a new type of player that caught us by surprise. Ever since the law of physics of this Universe has been upended, we are left stranded afloat wondering if these attacks will ever end. As Vets of Elvenar are being punished and weakened beyond repair, a new type of entropy is forcing us to watch these newcomers come in and dominate us by margins we could have never predicted. Well to be fair, there were a lot of valuable scientists that did predict this, but groups in command decided to ignore these wise people and opted to force restrictions on our civilizations in favor of others. Now we are being overrun by players that can get 17k in under a day. Will the nerf ever end as we watch command trade one set of players for another?

God Bless us all, our fates are unknown at this time.
ohhhh... good times.

 

[T6583]

@Nightguest and @helya thank for taking the time to read our feedback and looking at things as well as having conversations with higher ups. I'm glad that someone is trying to do something on the players behalf even if its just getting information. I'm not sure about other servers but it seems like alot of the same feedback we're seeing here was also presented on the Beta and EN forums where the new system has been running alot longer than it has been on US servers. It seems that internationally there are alot of upset players with this change and it might be why some people are saying its too late since the feedback was given in those forums weeks / months ago. I'm not gonna lie, my Ch. 4 Beta city likes it. I scored over 1800 points last week there. That being said I don't feel being in my 3rd week with my Ch. 16 and Ch. 15 cities is long enough to really make a determiniation of things so far. My Ch. 15 city won't be going into Ch. 16 for quite awhile, if ever. I was extremely unhappy and frustrated with Ch. 16 to the point I considered quitting so I don't see the point of doing it right now in another city. Especially with its high KP demands and how slow it is to progress through the chapter in general. With the bad taste of already completing Ch. 16 in my mouth still I don't even want to consider attempting Ch. 16 with the new tourney system as I relied on the KP I got from tournaments to get through the chapter in what I considered a reasonable amount of time for me. I increased my tourney performance under the old system from 20 proviences to 30+ during Ch. 16 due to the high KP demands. I've since gone back to my normal 20 (when I finished the chapter). I'm still debating on taking my Ch. 16 city into Ch. 17 or just waiting. I'm concerned about how much harder tournaments will become overall at some point based on the math already presented throughout the various forums on how much harder tourney will become just from the research aspect alone not counting AW's or expansions in Ch. 17. How many players will end up quitting over the requirements in Ch. 16 with the insane KP demands in the future if they have limited ways to get KP (and that's not even the main issue overall), and at what point does certain aspects of the game become unplayable for long time players / members who have invested considerable time and in some cases resources to this game. Crazywizard really hits the nail on the head in his above posts and sure does a much better job of explaining how this is more than just a KP issue. IMHO it feels like we're being punished and or pushed out of the game in favor of new players. I get changes sometimes need to be made but I really wish that Inno would be a little more upfront about some things / communicate a bit more.

 

[AtaguS]

I am not one of those cities who tops the charts in tourneys and amasses hundred of kps. I am an average sort of tourney player - I do well enough to make the elves proud but not so well that big fellowships fall over themselves to poach me away. I just enjoy them. I enjoy tweaking my city to get better at them as I grow. And I enjoy the benefits they offer, which in turn makes creatively building up my city easier.

Now...The very creative city building which made the tourney fun for me, will now be building me toward a growth cap in the tournaments.
Where's the fun in that?

I don't object to the tournaments being harder the more a player advances in the tech tree, it should be that way. And it also makes sense to me that the difficulty now increases with the number of provinces you compete in, rather than merely the number of rounds you do. The harder a player wants to compete, the harder they should work to compete. But there is a difference between the game remaining challenging even as you advance - which sounds fun - and the game limiting your success the more you build, which seems counter-productive to a game making its money selling itself as a fantasy builder game. The game should be challenging throughout, and building ought to be a working solution to those challenges - not a built-in measure working against you the longer you do it.

I just want to end with one more thing which I think needs to be heard. Sorry for the length of this post already, but...

I have recently found myself in a fellowship playing with some folks who have been at this game long enough to be sitting at the top. Their experience, advice, and generosity to new players had really deepened my appreciation for the game in recent months. I found myself marveling at how well they handle conflict in the fellowship, or their simple-once-you-know strategies for growth which they shared....these are things that years of playing a game they love bring. And all things which greatly benefit other players all around them. It would be a terrible thing to see these players go and I know that players like this are going over these changes. I've seen it. Not because they can't get the kp they so crave. Because the point of creative city building has just been undermined. Because, As CrazyWizard says so well:

progress is no longer a guarantee as advancing beyond a point only degrades your results whjch kills the fun.

Please don't drive these players away. They are an asset to your ability to retain new players, not a liability.

 

[DeletedUser7738]

To be honest, long time players of Elvenar have read similar words from other community managers in the past. While I am thankful for Nightguest's and helya's responses, time, courage & words, all too often that is the end of it, waiting until the fire burns out or players go back to being comfortably numb. Although many of those on the fire line don't come to the forums, there is a firestorm brewing, it's there, it's real ... I myself am waiting to see what happens, modifying my game-play so as to not be so frustrated with the changes and hoping for a sign that Inno cares, but expecting nothing from them. These tournament changes are taking the joy & fun out of the game for me, like the proverbial rug being pulled out from under my feet.

 

[Clusseau]

@Nightguest, apology for questions and statements being unclear.
There are already so many questions, statements, suggestions in this thread- (and many more in Beta and EN)- I wasnt attempting to add value to those. My effort was intended to relate them to my own situation (=state of mind). Similarly, i do not expect personal contact from you, or INNO, but was simply lamenting that because i'm an infrequent poster; my City (and comments) had missed the bus.

It may be more clear to say,
ATM- Im Sitting at province 36, round 1. It will require 7.3 squads for me to fill each battle position, and enemy will be bringing 14.9. Current battle includes 2 Mistwalkers, so i must assume Two Hits are coming if I wish to send a Strategist to Scout. (= lose 5 squads, just for Scouting??).

With L12 Vic, and L31 and Simia, (and with Bears fed), simply scouting this single battle will cost 2hrs of production- and- scouting is nearly certain to save squads vs. "my best guess, go and fight".

So, some folks are saying; "this is it, live with it, = it works for Me!".
Others say; "Those ahead of you must be going all Out! Are you Trying as hard as them??"

Im saying; Continued Spending on Round 1 seems like a questionable investment, and my current tournament rank is 398.
In most weeks (=Previously), with current boosts, i'd have done 75-85 provinces, probably be ranked around 10Th at this point- and would not have hit any "questionable value" battles.

(Inno is saying?) There are 300+ people who deserve a Cab Ride past you- now try to catch them?
(or, just wait until they do some Upgrading, and their scores come Back To You)?

Apologies if my thoughts are incoherent... certainly they are self-centered....
Im searching for a Single thread, somewhere, something that makes sense of this.... and im not finding it.

 

[Mykan]

Those that "scream the hardest" are mostly competitive tournament players, and there main concern aren't the KP.
It's the fact that
A. progress is no longer a guarantee as advancing beyond a point only degrades your results whjch kills the fun.
B. Competition is killed with this setup with a difference in difficulty of up to 150x (note that for the 150 factor special towns need to be build that take time) but even now we see difference of in excess of 10x between players within the same chapter.

This stand in no contrast to the non mandatory SS-research which many, many, many complained about over the years (and even quit the game as once researched you could not revert that choice, does this sound familiar?) , this version is like the non-mandatory SS but then to the power of insanity
They acknowledged the issue and then created a monster thats literally more than a hundred times worse.

C. (part 1) Competition is no longer fair, there are people still scoring massive scores (if not more than before) but it is a very different group of people. That change has come from the limits to progression and there is a massive imbalance in ability to compete now. The SS tech wasn't fair but often the people who were disadvantaged by it were the competitive long term players who had already done the optional techs when the change arrived. Sure some new players would have come along with a fully optimised town but a lot, certainly on my server, were those who suffered from that imbalance and still rose to the top. That group has been punished even further along with lots of other advanced players and a new player group given a huge advantage.

C. (part 2) It is no longer fair due to the need to manual fight, but if you were casual in terms of time or on mobile then that is not an option and you are penalised immediately. One solution for mobile players is give them manual fights or ban it for all, wouldn't solve the problem but would level the playing field in that area. Casual time players are still stuffed as the change was promisied to save time and clicks bt manual fighting is massively more clicks and time, no saving at all.

While the playing field wasn't 100% fair before it was a lot closer, there have been those with the maths that can provide the figures for the imbalance before and now. Honestly every player should be complaining about the fairness as sooner or later they will fall into the wrong group. That or they stay put and stagnant, which inno has stated they don't want towns to do. Already the strategy experienced players are saying to new people is to do just that.

Edit: Experienced players picked up on skipping SS techs very quick last big change and it didn't take long for that to be the norm. Will be interesting to see how it goes this time. The fact that stagnation is the key to success might be the only reason less people follow the advice, but how many will do it so they can enjoy tournaments (and spire)...time will tell.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

C. (part 1) Competition is no longer fair, there are people still scoring massive scores (if not more than before) but it is a very different group of people. That change has come from the limits to progression and there is a massive imbalance in ability to compete now. The SS tech wasn't fair but often the people who were disadvantaged by it were the competitive long term players who had already done the optional techs when the change arrived. Sure some new players would have come along with a fully optimised town but a lot, certainly on my server, were those who suffered from that imbalance and still rose to the top. That group has been punished even further along with lots of other advanced players and a new player group given a huge advantage.

C. (part 2) It is no longer fair due to the need to manual fight, but if you were casual in terms of time or on mobile then that is not an option and you are penalised immediately. One solution for mobile players is give them manual fights or ban it for all, wouldn't solve the problem but would level the playing field in that area. Casual time players are still stuffed as the change was promisied to save time and clicks bt manual fighting is massively more clicks and time, no saving at all.

While the playing field wasn't 100% fair before it was a lot closer, there have been those with the maths that can provide the figures for the imbalance before and now. Honestly every player should be complaining about the fairness as sooner or later they will fall into the wrong group. That or they stay put and stagnant, whichinno has stated they don't want towns to do. Already the strategy experienced players are saying to new people is to do just that.

When the SS variant of the tournament was introduced the difference was ~30%.
Those that skipped from that time one dropped to around 12% in chapter 16

If someone ignored all warnings from advanced players and researched all SS anyway up to the end of the current tech tree the difference raised to 67%

In the current format the difference between a perfect optimised town (do not exist yet as they need to be build) and the most unoptimised city is ~15000%

And we already see differences of 1000% in game right now.

So we went from 67% in the most negative case in the old system to much bigger factors now.

 

[GlamDoll]

I have recently found myself in a fellowship playing with some folks who have been at this game long enough to be sitting at the top. Their experience, advice, and generosity to new players had really deepened my appreciation for the game in recent months. I found myself marveling at how well they handle conflict in the fellowship, or their simple-once-you-know strategies for growth which they shared....these are things that years of playing a game they love bring. And all things which greatly benefit other players all around them. It would be a terrible thing to see these players go and I know that players like this are going over these changes. I've seen it. Not because they can't get the kp they so crave. Because the point of creative city building has just been undermined. Because, As CrazyWizard says so well:
Please don't drive these players away. They are an asset to your ability to retain new players, not a liability.

That is beautiful, truly. ^^^ I could only like it once, so.

(Inno is saying?) There are 300+ people who deserve a Cab Ride past you- now try to catch them?
(or, just wait until they do some Upgrading, and their scores come Back To You)?

And this is my dilemma...I already know that if I continue to advance, it will make it even more outrageous for me in Spire & tournaments, but I keep failing at getting people in my FS to 'get it'...seems I am just complaining that I am no longer at the top in my FSs, to them, if I understand the 'vibe' correctly & if I just start sinking all my KP into their Wonders? They will learn the hard way, of what I am desperately trying to convey, alas, it will be too late by then!

@InnoGames I would like to have another option for my KPs. I shall not continue to do this to myself & I shall not do it to them. In fact, I would like to buy -KPs with my KPs, so I can downgrade AWs that are doing harm to my city. TY. What a mess.

 

[edeba]

This stand in no contrast to the non mandatory SS-research which many, many, many complained about over the years (and even quit the game as once researched you could not revert that choice, does this sound familiar?) , this version is like the non-mandatory SS but then to the power of insanity
They acknowledged the issue and then created a monster thats literally more than a hundred times worse.

This is why we are whining, not because the lost KP thats more an issue for the "somewhat contenders" not the top contenders.

I did the optional squad size research about a month before the switch, and seriously, it made very little difference to performance. I could see that my squad size did get 40-50% bigger, so the number of squads it said I had went down, but I was still able to do all open provinces and all levels.

This new tournament gives you a penalty for doing a tech, and that might be a reasonable way to be increasing the troop size as you are going through the game, but then it gives you a penalty for placing an expansion. So, say you are putting down the hero's forge, for example and you get an expansion to do so, well, you just got a penalty for putting down that expansion, and it also compounded with an AW level for putting down the forge, and a level 1 forge is not going to practically anything for your game, but you just increased your squad size, and if you just got the tech for the forge, well, it is the tech, expansion and AW level that just made your game more difficult. Maybe your paid 10,000 diamonds for that expansion, and you just made your game more difficult.

Premium expansions were ALWAYS beneficial before and now they come with an expensive downside which when compounded with everything else could make your game worse.

Most AWs really aren't worth the space until at least level 6, and that was before the changes. Now, it might take to level 6 to justify the space, but now you also have a bunch of AW levels that are adding difficulty.

They need to go back the criteria that we purchased our premium expansions on, they just gave us more space, and no AW should be included in increasing difficulty before level 6. At least half of the AWs should probably be counted at half the penalty rate (endless, crystal lighthouse, thrones, Maze, and ETC to name a few) and others not at all (enar).

 

[GlamDoll]

Most AWs really aren't worth the space until at least level 6, and that was before the changes. Now, it might take to level 6 to justify the space, but now you also have a bunch of AW levels that are adding difficulty.

I seriously could not agree with you more here! I am an Ancient Wonder fiend! There are only 2 that are worth their footprint imo. Golden Abyss & Mountain Halls...all others pale in comparison. Why? Because they are also based upon your working population. For the way I play on GlamDoll, it allowed me to enjoy much of the artwork in this game. I do have Event buildings, but the bulk of my pop is from those. IMO, no other Wonder is even in the shadow of those 2, not to say anything about the penalty that all the others & as well as levels, brings. And, I think calling it a penalty and/or a nerf, is extremely generous! I thought Wonders would actually be a bonus & benefit....live & learn!

It is my opinion, but other than those 2 Wonders at 30, none other matter...if one is concerned about the difficulty.

If people thought Event Threads messed me up....

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

IMHO it feels like we're being punished and or pushed out of the game in favor of new players.

If you want to get an idea at how Inno is looking at players, you can check out their capital markets deck:

https://www.mtg.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/6.-InnoGames-Hendrik-Klindworth.pdf

Look at "Longevity and stability of cohorts" slide:



Now, it is obviously not based on Elvenar per se, but you can see how they see players across their assets. Basically, if you've been playing the same game for more than 24 months you're a residual. No one is marketing to you (that's for 0-6 months category). So if you stick around and even pay something after that long - great, but if not, well...

 

[Ashrem]

Now if you are one of the unlucky fellows that worked there ass off, you are now punished beyond reason.

Conversely, if you worked that hard for the last year, you got a ton of extra stuff that future players will never get. Boo hoo.

 

[GlamDoll]

Conversely, if you worked that hard for the last year, you got a ton of extra stuff that future players will never get. Boo hoo.

That is true & you are technically correct, but, to be fair....future players will never have to work as hard either. It's being handed to them on a silver platter, for now. You are right though, they too shall see it.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Conversely, if you worked that hard for the last year, you got a ton of extra stuff that future players will never get. Boo hoo.

Actually all the OP stuff is older than 12 months. same to the last "unlimited" event.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

I did the optional squad size research about a month before the switch, and seriously, it made very little difference to performance. I could see that my squad size did get 40-50% bigger, so the number of squads it said I had went down, but I was still able to do all open provinces and all levels.

This new tournament gives you a penalty for doing a tech, and that might be a reasonable way to be increasing the troop size as you are going through the game, but then it gives you a penalty for placing an expansion. So, say you are putting down the hero's forge, for example and you get an expansion to do so, well, you just got a penalty for putting down that expansion, and it also compounded with an AW level for putting down the forge, and a level 1 forge is not going to practically anything for your game, but you just increased your squad size, and if you just got the tech for the forge, well, it is the tech, expansion and AW level that just made your game more difficult. Maybe your paid 10,000 diamonds for that expansion, and you just made your game more difficult.

Premium expansions were ALWAYS beneficial before and now they come with an expensive downside which when compounded with everything else could make your game worse.

Most AWs really aren't worth the space until at least level 6, and that was before the changes. Now, it might take to level 6 to justify the space, but now you also have a bunch of AW levels that are adding difficulty.

They need to go back the criteria that we purchased our premium expansions on, they just gave us more space, and no AW should be included in increasing difficulty before level 6. At least half of the AWs should probably be counted at half the penalty rate (endless, crystal lighthouse, thrones, Maze, and ETC to name a few) and others not at all (enar).

Was this not because you were already at that stage where you where so much more stronger then the amount of provinces you had unlocked?
bear(s)+ timeboosters madness is what made the tournament "to easy"

I knew that when I started chapter 16 that on paper it was a bad move to play that chapter since it "damaged" the tournaments, but there was so much overcapacity in the tournaments that I could do way more than I was actually able to do. I simply had not enough provinces to cap out my production.
So I did chapter 16 anyway, as the real result would not be impacted

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

That is true & you are technically correct, but, to be fair....future players will never have to work as hard either. It's being handed to them on a silver platter, for now. You are right though, they too shall see it.

Yeah, all you youngsters who started playing the game after portal profits and time boosters and free diamonds were added to the game will never know what it was like.

 

[Ashrem]

Actually all the OP stuff is older than 12 months. same to the last "unlimited" event.

I allocated some time because you also talked about optimizing towns for the tournaments.