The case FOR open trading.

[MstrBengals]

Why do you say the star system isn't able to determine fairness. I don't believe that is what it is for. It tells you if trades are of equal, greater, or less value. I could pick up zero or one star trades, but I have never been in the position I needed to. The circumstances surrounding the trade may determine what you want to do but the stars have nothing to do with that. The player needs to decide if that trade works for them with the stars just as a guide to evaluate comparative values.

How do you evaluate prices in the real world? Usually from best deal to worst. Circumstances dictate what you can and cannot buy as does the quality of the item(intangibles). It is an open trade market and each FS determines that. Should we also take away the fee that you have to pay to trade with those you haven't "discovered"? Call that fee shipping and handling. Would you pay that to get your goods from, say, another country?

You want to pick up 0 and 1 star trades, that is your business. The current system works. If you don't like the stars, don't look at them. As for cross tier, I don't always pick up cross tier trades, especially tier one of tier 3. But that is me. Do your thing and we will do ours.

 

[ajqtrz]

I am in chapter 5. My idea of a small player is different than yours. I do take trades from my small neighbors. If they are asking for less than 500 I will take pretty much any trade as long as it is a singleton. If it is six trades for 100 each I wont touch it unless I need it. If it's a bunch of little 3 star I also wont touch it as I am not the target.

No. Large players who regularly put up 1 star trades go on my never never list.

I'm curious as to why those large players go on your "never never list." I mean suppose you need 100,000 to finish a research that a quest is requiring to finish the 9th artifact for a fantastic evolving building (or some other equally important to you scenario). Suppose I put up a 50,000 x for 100,000 of what you need and I'm the only source available in the next 5 minutes you have to complete the research. Why would my 1 star (I assume it's 1 star) not be a good trade for you and why would you not take it? Just because it's 1-star? Does advising everybody through rules and social pressure to avoid posting what they need at a price they can afford make any sense even if we find it "irritating"?

In other words, your use of the star system as a measure and your defense of it means you may be inadvertently causing some players to miss trades that would be beneficial to them. Trades they might post or trades that might be posted. Restricting trades to what makes you comfortable is imposing your comfort level on others while removing restrictions allows each to find their own comfort level.

The only rules you seem to be having problems with are the rules preventing you from playing with the entire market the way you want to play with it.
The traders being full of cross tier and 0-1 star trades would seem to indicate lots of people are playing by their very own rules.
Have fun.

Again, it's not just me. I'm pushing for everyone to drop the rules because a lot of players feel a bit pressured to not ignore them, and a lot of players are following them even though they are bad for the game. In the end we need to push that all players ignore them and measure the trade by their own standards instead of using social pressure and rules to "train" others to make the same mistake we have made in the past -- using the star system as a measure of "fair." And the best way to get everybody to "ignore" them is to get rid of them altogether.

AJ

 

[Alram]

Again, it's not just me....And the best way to get everybody to "ignore" them is to get rid of them altogether.

AJ

I agree, it's not just you. The traders being full of cross tier and 0-1 star trades seems to indicate lots of people are playing by their very own rules already. Which part are you not understanding?
The part where some players have chosen to band together to avoid becoming prey?

 

[ajqtrz]

Why do you say the star system isn't able to determine fairness. I don't believe that is what it is for. It tells you if trades are of equal, greater, or less value. I could pick up zero or one star trades, but I have never been in the position I needed to. The circumstances surrounding the trade may determine what you want to do but the stars have nothing to do with that. The player needs to decide if that trade works for them with the stars just as a guide to evaluate comparative values.

How do you evaluate prices in the real world? Usually from best deal to worst. Circumstances dictate what you can and cannot buy as does the quality of the item(intangibles). It is an open trade market and each FS determines that. Should we also take away the fee that you have to pay to trade with those you haven't "discovered"? Call that fee shipping and handling. Would you pay that to get your goods from, say, another country?

You want to pick up 0 and 1 star trades, that is your business. The current system works. If you don't like the stars, don't look at them. As for cross tier, I don't always pick up cross tier trades, especially tier one of tier 3. But that is me. Do your thing and we will do ours.

You are right, the star system doesn't say what's fair and the individual should be the one who determines if the trade is fair to them in their current circumstances or not. But when you make rules that are tied to the star system and then enforce those social rules, you are, in essence, saying a 1-star trade is "unfair." You are saying it's "unfair" because you don't disdain a fair trade, but only an unfair one. You don't make a rule against trades that are fair, but you do against ones that are unfair. The existence of the rules itself shows a belief that 1 and 0 star (and cross tier trades to a lesser degree) are "unfair."

How do you evaluate prices in the real world? You do so not only by the price (lowest to highest) but by reputation, delivery, shipping, warrantee, color, size, quantity and the list goes on and on. You also evaluate how badly you need it now verse waiting a while, if you can afford it (meaning you can do without whatever it is you are giving for it) and how beneficial it will be to you in a host of other ways.

My argument is NOT against using the star system if that's what you wish to use. It is against having rules that make the star-system appear to be a measure of "fairness," by using the rules as a form of ocial enforcement. By removing these rules we cease training new players in doing what is potentially harmful to their game experience and allow for more freedom in the market place.

As far as the trader fee is concerned, that's another issue because it's not something about which we can, as players, do anything directly. We can with the two trade restricting rules we seem to have adopted without a lot of thought.

AJ

 

[shimmerfly]

The things you are doing you have done on at east 2 other game forums.
I have had enough and will not play your silly forum control games.

 

[ajqtrz]

I agree, it's not just you. The traders being full of cross tier and 0-1 star trades seems to indicate lots of people are playing by their very own rules already. Which part are you not understanding?
The part where some players have chosen to band together to avoid becoming prey?

Actually it's a good question. That players have banded together to "avoid becoming prey" indicates that some players think some trades are predatory, right? I would submit they have based the measure of predatory trades upon the star system which is, itself, based upon cost of production. If they did use that measure and the measure is artificial and harmful as a base for determining predatory trades, then the conclusion that the rules they have put forth to prevent "becoming prey" are not accomplishing what they think they are accomplishing -- in other words, they are ineffective. And since they are also training people to make bad decisions, they should be scrapped.

Here's a real example. I have a neighbor who wants scrolls and needs them. She puts up a 1:1 trade for silk, I take it. She thinks she's getting a fair deal but given the market value of scrolls you can argue that I'm taking advantage of her. She is going by the star-system in setting her price because that's what she's required to do in her fs and that's what she thinks is 'fair." I've told her I'll pay er 1.1:1 for her scrolls but her fs has that rule. Who is preying on whom in this? Is not her fellowship harming her ability to get more scrolls for her silk (which my fs needs)? I'm making a profit on the transaction but hate that she is forced by her fs rules and assumption that those rules really do measure "fair," to do so.

And yes, a lot of people (more and more every day) are abandoning the rules and that's a good thing. But why not set everybody free and stop promoting/enforcing/supporting a bad way to measure "fair?"

The things you are doing you have done on at east 2 other game forums.
I have had enough and will not play your silly forum control games.

What game forums? (I only play Elvenar so let's back up the claim with some forum names so I can find out who might be impersonating me.. And what am I doing besides arguing for a position? That I argue tenaciously is a given. Is that wrong? Should I just throw in the towel when I think I'm right and have, I believe, very good reasons for doing so? Should social pressure stop my mouth?

AJ

 

[shimmerfly]

Would you like me to share some posts and game links?
I think not.
Good bye AJ

 

[SoggyShorts]

What game forums? (I only play Elvenar so let's back up the claim with some forum names so I can find out who might be impersonating me.. And what am I doing besides arguing for a position? That I argue tenaciously is a given. Is that wrong? Should I just throw in the towel when I think I'm right and have, I believe, very good reasons for doing so? Should social pressure stop my mouth?

A quick google of your name returns the following:

https://www.crownofthegods.com/cotgforum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=10641

https://illyriadtimes.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/obit-ajqtrz/

If those aren't you, it's someone doing an excellent impression of you.

This vanity thread of yours "I don't want my view buried in the main thread so I'll make one where the spotlight is on me fully" is the height of arrogance and I think I'll add you as the second person ever on my ignore list before I too lose all enjoyment here and am driven from these forums as @Ashrem has been.

 

[Alram]

That players have banded together to "avoid becoming prey" indicates that some players think some trades are predatory, right?

Here's a real example. I have a neighbor who wants scrolls and needs them. She puts up a 1:1 trade for silk, I take it. She thinks she's getting a fair deal but given the market value of scrolls you can argue that I'm taking advantage of her. She is going by the star-system in setting her price because that's what she's required to do in her fs and that's what she thinks is 'fair." I've told her I'll pay er 1.1:1 for her scrolls but her fs has that rule. Who is preying on whom in this? Is not her fellowship harming her ability to get more scrolls for her silk (which my fs needs)? I'm making a profit on the transaction but hate that she is forced by her fs rules and assumption that those rules really do measure "fair," to do so.

AJ

Clearly, this is a real example of a predatory player attempting to undermine another fellowship's rules for their own benefit.
1) Silk player doesn't have to stay in that fellowship if they aren't getting what they need.
2) Silk player could probably let a mage know what you tried and set a time for trades so that you never get another trade of theirs.
3) Silk player could just ask their FS for scrolls. I hear they are rather abundant in all fellowships.

Keep talking. I hope your trade partners see you.

 

[GlamDoll]

before I too lose all enjoyment here and am driven from these forums as @Ashrem has been.

Wait! What?

Clearly, this is a real example of a predatory player attempting to undermine another fellowship's rules for their own benefit.
1) Silk player doesn't have to stay in that fellowship if they aren't getting what they need.
2) Silk player could probably let a mage know what you tried and set a time for trades so that you never get another trade of theirs.
3) Silk player could just ask their FS for scrolls. I hear they are rather abundant in all fellowships.

I am a silk player & almost never put my silk up for trade, but, those are also options...I am lazy & like to get through the feldercarb.

 

[GlamDoll]

How is it you've missed my many declarations that Open Trading is all about doing what you want?

How is it that you missed I already am?

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

As I have said in the other threads, most of these fellowships with rules against cross-tier and 0 and 1-star trades are relics from before the trade ratios were changed from 16:4:1 to 2.25:1.5:1.0 and the fellowship intro was never updated to show that. I bet most of those fellowships do not care about them nearly as much now. I would also not be surprised if fellowships made up of players who started the game after this change do not have any anti-cross-tier trade rules, though I would expect 0 and 1-star same-tier trades are still frowned on, unless it is a new player needing special help to build up their goods. The Beta fellowship I am in has a rule like that. Any player under 10k ranking points is allowed to post 0-star trades for needed goods, but once they hit 10k points, all their trades have to be at least 2-star. But neither that fellowship, nor the one I am in on Arendyll has a general rule against cross-tier. Mostly just all trades should be fair, which does not always mean at least 2-star, either, since a lot of the players are from before the ratio change, and a 2:1 or 3:1 cross-tier trade that would be "unfair" in the current system, would have been very fair in the old system that is what we were all used to.

But aside from that, as someone pointed out early in this thread, until the browser and app versions of the Trader are identical, in both searching and sorting, nothing should be changed in the ratios or in how "open" it should or could be.

Also, some of these arguments apply more to sentient goods than they do to normal goods and I believe that a lot of this makes no sense to players who are not as far as chapter 12 and having to deal with the load of crap that sentient trades can be. Maybe you should try and split your arguments in two, to address these two categories separately. Plus, it will get even worse when chapter 18 is added and a third type of good is added to the game, and the Trader, to annoy us end-game players. Personally, I really wish they had given us two separate Traders when sentient goods were added to the game, one for normal and one for sentient, rather than cramming them all into the same building.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Wait! What?

I am a silk player & almost never put my silk up for trade, but, those are also options...I am lazy & like to get through the feldercarb.

Ashrem said goodbye in one of the other Trade threads, but I thought it was only that he was not posting in that thread again, not leaving the forum for good. But he has taken a break before, so maybe that is what it is this time too.

I am lazy too and rarely post trades, but I do tend to try and clean out my Trader of normal goods every couple of days. It makes me sad seeing small 2-star trades just sitting there for a day or two with no one else taking them.

 

[GlamDoll]

That would just compound the issue...

Personally, I really wish they had given us two separate Traders when sentient goods were added to the game, one for normal and one for sentient, rather than cramming them all into the same building

Personally, I would not...much easier to use the filter, in the trader...unless we are gonna get a bigger city grid. Agree to disagree, no further debate required

Ashrem said goodbye in one of the other Trade threads, but I thought it was only that he was not posting in that thread again, not leaving the forum for good. But he has taken a break before, so maybe that is what it is this time too.

Thank you. I have not been in that thread, yet. Soggy seems to have an entirely different take....I know, preaching to the choir

I am lazy too and rarely post trades, but I do tend to try and clean out my Trader of normal goods every couple of days. It makes me sad seeing small 2-star trades just sitting there for a day or two with no one else taking them.

Agreed! But, it's also my lappy is too slow...so, if I post a bunch of trades, it takes far too long (on pc) to load cities that I know help me.

One day, I will get a new pc, but my home & car come before that.

 

[AtaguS]

There are not enough words in your vocabulary to change my mind on what I believe to be fair.

Ditto.
Ditto.
Ditto.
Thank you

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

That would just compound the issue...

Personally, I would not...much easier to use the filter, in the trader...unless we are gonna get a bigger city grid. Agree to disagree, no further debate required.

Only filter on the app version of the Trader is to not show trades with fees. No showing only fellowship trades. No showing only standard goods. No showing only sentient goods. So two separate buildings would greatly benefit mobile players. Sure, you can look at the goods one by one, but that is very tedious. Sometimes I think that if I had to play only the mobile version of the game, just the frustration of the Trader might have made me quit the game, especially once I got to sentient goods in chapter 12.

 

[GlamDoll]

Only filter on the app version of the Trader is to not show trades with fees. No showing only fellowship trades. No showing only standard goods. No showing only sentient goods. So two separate buildings would greatly benefit mobile players. Sure, you can look at the goods one by one, but that is very tedious. Sometimes I think that if I had to play only the mobile version of the game, just the frustration of the Trader might have made me quit the game, especially once I got to sentient goods in chapter 12.

You have me there...I know nothing about the app version (other than I have heard rumors of doing the neighbor help super super fast). So, if I ever wanted to get hardcore about this game, I see 3 things:

1: Do neighborhood help on mobile
2: Do trading on PC
3: Perhaps download the app, in hopes of not sounding whatever, to those that play on it

Perhaps 2 buildings are better, after all... What a mess

Glad you stuck around. It was a push for me as well, in the past couple months, for other reasons...so, in my own way, I get it.

Have a blessed night

 

[Darielle]

I agree with this to some extent. BUT if you've been trained falsely you may not think you have a choice. ... In other words, even if you are not in a fellowship, you do 'get the message.' And the "message" is wrong.
AJ

Says who? You think it's wrong because you are living in your own reality, and you keep trying to push that reality on others. (It reminds me of someone infamous, but I don't want to start a war here, so I'll leave it at that.) You have a habit of talking down to people without even realizing it. You think you are polite, reasonable, and articulate enough to sway anyone. And when it doesn't work, you assume you have to further explain to the "unwashed masses" because they obviously don't understand. We do understand. We are not on some lower level that needs to be instructed. We simply disagree. The fact that you declare "the message is wrong," like some authoritarian, without even realizing it is only your opinion ... well, that makes it rather difficult to debate with you on an intellectual level. So when people leave the conversation, you may think you've won because you're the last person standing. Go ahead and think that ... it will not change our reality, even if it changes yours. I mean you no ill will, AJ. It's just tiring to be talked down to, and you have done that to too many people on this thread and elsewhere. Now I'll leave and wish everyone, including you, well.

 

[ajqtrz]

Wow this is a thread and as someone mentioned discussed in several other threads.
What I personally find difficult about trades (as many do in my FS) is knowing IF I should take the trade

Example lets assume a 2 star trade:

On US server, typically 80 pages of trades

I see a player offering several trades of 200 elixir for 1000 marble
Do I take the trade (mind you I have over 1 million points so would be considered big)

I think
1. They are offering these trades so lower level players can get tier 3
2. They really need marble

Without visiting the city (to see if they are small) I cannot make an educated guess and honestly don't have the time to check every city.
Now if I could click on the players name and see they have 50,000 points I can guess they really need marble.

The thing is, why are you even bothering to consider their motivations for posting the trade? Does the trade benefit you? Then make it. If not, don't. If you want to be a nice guy and grab trades from small players, that too, is an intangible part of the trade. The time it takes to figure out if it's a "little guy" is just part of the cost of the trade.

On a side note, doesn't taking trades from "little guys" (no matter the type) mean that those who do so are trying to influence the game in a positive way? Isn't that a good thing? And if I am trying to do the same because I think it's a positive step for the game and the players of the game, isn't that too, a good thing? It seems many posters believe that if you disagree with something it must be because your opponent is selfish and thinks it's "all about" him or her. How about we deal with the question at hand and skip the claim of selfish motivations that may or may not be present in asking the question. Such discussions of motivation only cloud the issue.

Thanks,

AJ

 

[AtaguS]

And if I am trying to do the same because I think it's a positive step for the game and the players of the game, isn't that too, a good thing?

It is a good thing. Right up until enough players of this game consider your step and say no thank you over and over again. Then it just becomes you beating a dead horse.

It seems many posters believe that if you disagree with something it must be because your opponent is selfish and thinks it's "all about" him or her.

From what I've seen and read, it isn't the disagreement causing that sentiment, it's the delivery. Many here have tried to point out where they feel your delivery is difficult. A majority of the time such attempts are met with more of the same delivery.

How about we deal with the question at hand

But it's been dealt with. Over and over. Again, beating a dead horse is not a debate tactic or even a great way to get a point across. It just fatigues and frustrates.