Top Tourney/Spire Players & Pressure to gain weekly gold

[EarthbornIcarus]

Many top FS's are making weekly spire gold a must-do. The rewards are making a huge difference between casual play fellowships and gold-winning ones.
The problem is, with teams that are *almost there*, many players are too impatient to help their team get there- and want to grab open spots on the teams that are already doing gold weekly. How does your FS handle the pressure to either go gold, or sink in rankings?
Our team has gotten gold several times now, and many members on our team want to establish it as a consistent weekly thing, but if we miss it by 20 pts one week, it creates anger and frustration towards members who may not have done enough when the rest worked hard to get to top.
Other Arches out there feel the pressure? Please share your advice and strategies.

 

[samidodamage]

Not an AM here, but in my Gold FS, a minimum Spire points rule (similar to minimum tourney points) was made: must clear the 2nd Floor boss every week. Members given 2 weeks (new members are still given 2 weeks) to reach the minimum. This was after taking a vote of the entire membership that indicated Spire Gold was wanted by way more members than not. Also, we don't have 'strict' AM: If a member was trying but struggling to reach the minimum and voiced their issues, help was available and freely given as well as a bit of extra time to 'get there'. Failure to talk about issues getting to the minimum and accepting the help/advice was the only thing that got members in trouble. Ex: Responses like 'I don't appreciate you telling me how to build in my city' were unacceptable from players who continued to need unfair trades to make the minimums. Build how you like, just don't expect others to produce goods you're not willing to adjust your build to produce on your own.
We did lose a few impatient members to FS that were 'already there', as well as a few who found they weren't willing to put in the effort required to get there and left for more casual FS's. It's all settled down now; we've got 18 Gold trophies and I can't remember the last week we missed getting gold. While no one wants to lose existing members in either direction, it's much more satisfying to be part of a group where the goals of the members are aligned, so the growing pains were worth it imo.

 

[EarthbornIcarus]

Not an AM here, but in my Gold FS, a minimum Spire points rule (similar to minimum tourney points) was made: must clear the 2nd Floor boss every week. Members given 2 weeks (new members are still given 2 weeks) to reach the minimum. This was after taking a vote of the entire membership that indicated Spire Gold was wanted by way more members than not. Also, we don't have 'strict' AM: If a member was trying but struggling to reach the minimum and voiced their issues, help was available and freely given as well as a bit of extra time to 'get there'. Failure to talk about issues getting to the minimum and accepting the help/advice was the only thing that got members in trouble. Ex: Responses like 'I don't appreciate you telling me how to build in my city' were unacceptable from players who continued to need unfair trades to make the minimums. Build how you like, just don't expect others to produce goods you're not willing to adjust your build to produce on your own.
We did lose a few impatient members to FS that were 'already there', as well as a few who found they weren't willing to put in the effort required to get there and left for more casual FS's. It's all settled down now; we've got 18 Gold trophies and I can't remember the last week we missed getting gold. While no one wants to lose existing members in either direction, it's much more satisfying to be part of a group where the goals of the members are aligned, so the growing pains were worth it imo.

Thank you for your reply.
Last 2 weeks, we have missed gold by 20 &60 points. We had started getting gold weekly, then had 2 new members not participate at all, and one out sick. That was enough to upset the "streak". And make people frustrated. We do discuss it, its a pretty democratic fs. Point taken, and will post better rule for spire. our tiniest player, super-teensy, actually made it almost to 3rd boss!
My question is, boot players that do 0 spire, after making notice for everyone to help out? Having 3 spots open seems to decrease the chance of attracting new members.....

 

[Gladiola]

I'm not an AM. I'm a new player (chapter 3), and my fellowship regularly reaches the bronze level in the spire. I generally reach the laboratory and then stop; I could possibly press on further, but it's not really worth it without having a chance to get the silver or gold rewards.

I'm not sure new players are what would hold a fellowship back. Spire is pretty easy for us (as long as chapter 3 has been begun). The people in my fellowship that I see struggling are the large players who struggle with the high costs in troops and to convince. It does create a quandary for growing players like me. I really like my fellowship, but I think it's unlikely that the large players would be willing to sacrifice to reach higher levels in the spire, and it seems unfair to ask them to since it is so much harder for them than for me.

 

[samidodamage]

My question is, boot players that do 0 spire, after making notice for everyone to help out? Having 3 spots open seems to decrease the chance of attracting new members.....

It's a hard call. It takes 21 players reaching the top to get gold if no one else does anything. You'd only have 22 players if you boot 3. But, if those 3 aren't doing anything, it's still on 21 players to get to the top. My personal feeling: you either are a Gold Spire FS or you're...not. Maybe you won't get there with 22 players, but if all 22 are striving and doing their best, morale won't suffer the way it does when keeping members who are not team players. You'll have to be really clear in your recruiting efforts, ex: making the statement 'Spire minimum required is clearing the 2nd floor boss'. That will make recruiting slower, but you will gain members whose personal goals align with those of the current members and that's a good thing!
@Gladiola
In most cases, I don't think the size of the city makes as much difference as the motivation. The exception to this is players who have chosen pure catering/negotiating. With the cost structure of the Spire and tourney now, those players may have to pick either tourney or Spire when their cities are larger. But I think those cities are fewer than the combat only cities (which is still a small percentage of cities, too, I think) who tend to use cater/negotiating if it's necessary. Cater only cities simply don't have the troops to make that choice. The vast majority of cities use a hybrid of cater/combat and it's entirely possible for those cities to adapt to completing the Spire weekly if they're motivated to do that. It's certainly possible for them to clear the 2nd floor boss (reach the laboratory) weekly. Also, you'll still have 1 or 2 players who whine about how hard it is and how much it costs; I look at that as a price I'm willing to pay if they're making their minimums every week.
When the Spire first launched, it was daunting to say the least. I made a concerted effort to learn it (I looked at it as a challenge) and it took me a couple months to get to the top and maybe another month before I was going to the top weekly. I was still hesitant to advocate that other players do the same. I wasn't sure about hybrid cater/combat cities because I chose all combat for the Spire. We've learned a lot since then from different types of cities and now I'm more confident the rewards are worth learning it for all but large cater-only cities. At first, negative comments were rampant on the forum and in-game from players who never even visit the forum (so they weren't influenced by forum comments). It was hard to see the benefits of even doing the Spire, and I think a lot of the larger cities got 'stuck' in that line of thinking. They're now unable and/or unwilling to look at the benefits as being valuable to city growth. The benefits are not readily apparent, they accumulate over time and that's always a 'hard sell'; we humans respond much more rapidly to instant rewards.

 

[Gladiola]

@samidodamage (I just realized I've been leaving the first d out of your name when I read it, and it makes much more sense now), what do you mean by accumulating long-term rewards? I guess I am dragon-y, so I look at the timers and spell fragments as building up my hoard. I'm even coming around to getting supply instants. Do you mean that having the benefit of being able to use timers whenever you want and maybe even occasionally diamonds accumulates as a benefit over time? Or is there something else you are thinking of?

I've been excited recently to find some fragments-only recipes in my MA. Right now I'm crafting a rainbow flower cage entirely out of spell fragments, which seems like a good deal because I have way more fragments than I have catalysts to use with them.

I won 35 diamonds in the spire today. I've never gotten diamonds before, and then I got them twice in a row. I was beginning to think there was something wrong with the RNG, and then at the next boss I got supply instants again. 170 more diamonds and I can upgrade my MA to level 5.

 

[samidodamage]

what do you mean by accumulating long-term rewards?

Mostly exactly what you said. Timers, spell fragments, CC's all help with being able to craft more. The more you craft the more often the 500 diamonds offer cycles in the Mystical Object (it's in every other object) and the more often you end up getting those diamonds. Coin and supply instants. Developing a good inventory of Teleport spells will enable you to move bldgs in and out of your city as your needs change. Ex: Running low on T1 goods? Teleport some T3 factories and replace with more T1 temporarily, then teleport the T1's and put back the T3's. This lets you keep fully upgraded regular bldgs in stock. You get back the pop/culture they use when you teleport them and you'll need it to place them again, but in the example I gave, you'll get pop/culture back from the T1's when you teleport them that will help with what you'll need to place the T3's back. Later on, you'll get Portal Profits that will help with guest race goods (Ch6+). Dwarven Armorers help with boosting troop health, Genies give rewards randomly that can be (not sure about what they give pre-guest race chapters; thinking coins/supplies/goods maybe) and later on mana/seeds/kps/diamonds. The more Spire chests you complete, the higher the chance of getting one of the Mystery Chests that give extras of the prizes.
The thing is, I didn't end up with 100+ teleport spells, manage to keep 4-5 Dwarven Armorers(expire in 5days) and 4-5 Genies (expire in 100days) in stock doing the Spire one week. That's the result of doing Spire every single week to the top for over a year in both cities. There are weeks with less than stellar rewards, but over time, with conservative use of the rewards until I built my inventory, I end up in a position where I can make choices like the example above re: teleport spells that are just not available to players who don't do the Spire. I avoided using CC's or Spell Fragments as examples because I have several Library sets in each city that enable me to amass ungodly amounts of both of those (300+CC's in both cities, over a million SF's in one city and over 950K SF's in the other). That option is no longer available as those bldgs have been removed from Spire and the crafter limits them to 1 copy of each bldg per city.
Quick note: If you're going to the Laboratory every week, I'd recommend completing the first chest in the Lab: it's the last chance for the individual reward of teleport spells. Also gives you one more chance of getting the Purple Mystery Chest that has a chance at 3 teleports. That reward really opens up your options.

 

[Darielle]

My fellowship states in its overview that you must do at least the first floor in the spire every week, and in "push" weeks (about once a month) you must do at least the second level (up to the door of the lab). Because it's in the overview, no one can miss it and the AM can point to it as justification to expel if someone consistently misses it. I would encourage all teams who want to make a rule to put it in your overview. That way, any potential players can see it and by joining, they are agreeing to it.

Lately, we've done gold every week so we really no longer need push weeks. We have a couple members that only make it through the first floor, but they're getting better. The more practice, the easier it is. And yes, the few times when we missed it by 20 or 30 points, we all felt terrible. It does create a bit of resentment towards players who just don't want to bother and won't accept trade help or advice to negotiate. But with the rule in place, they don't last long in our fellowship, and that's fair because it's stated.

 

[Iyapo1]

Running low on T1 goods? Teleport some T3 factories and replace with more T1 temporarily, then teleport the T1's and put back the T3's. This lets you keep fully upgraded regular bldgs in stock. You get back the pop/culture they use when you teleport them and you'll need it to place them again, but in the example I gave, you'll get pop/culture back from the T1's when you teleport them that will help with what you'll need to place the T3's back.

@Gladiola I am not sure what your Ancient wonder situation looks like but if you have a high level Golden Abyss or Mountain Hall then performing the above maneuver can be tricky. Teleporting a fully upgraded manufactory can drop your working population to the point that you cant just put it back. So keeping a few fully upgraded houses in storage is also something you might consider.

 

[samidodamage]

So keeping a few fully upgraded houses in storage is also something you might consider.

Good idea! I've gotten to the point where between magic houses (directly from the Spire or from diamonds won in the Spire or crafting) and using event pop/culture bldgs (only the really good ones!) to replace houses, I don't have to think about pop much anymore at all. After the last FA (I teleported out a bunch of stuff; all my houses went in one city, lol!) I only have 5 magic houses in one city and zero in the other. Both have 20K+ available pop right now and a few extra Goblin Gift Shops (that are only 3x3!) if I needed to plop down something for extra pop. That strategy has also meant that I don't have to think about culture much either: I run at 160/170% in both cities including polishes and only use EE spells for FA badges or to produce mana on demand from my Dragon Abbey and that's rare.
Edit to add: all my magic houses have been teleported! Not giving them up just in case, lol!

 

[Gladiola]

Thanks @samidodamage and @Iyapo1 There are all sorts of interesting strategies I haven't thought about yet. And I wouldn't have considered the Golden Abyss effects, but that makes sense. I don't have a GA yet. I have a 3x3 Phoenix Chick that gives 220 population plus some culture and marble. A level 1 GA would give me 64 population; a level 6 GA would give me 128. When a level 2 GA gives me more population than my Phoenix Chick, I'm going to either sell or teleport it and put in the GA. Then I'll have to worry about population effects of removing and re-placing buildings

I have thought about teleporting residences, now that mine are level 12-13. It is something I might do if I get a population-culture building that works well for my level but I might need to have more residences later on. Currently I have 7 residences and 4 pop/culture buildings (all from the last event), and that's probably as lean on residences as I can get. The good news is that I'm almost done upgrading my factories for this chapter, so I just need miscellaneous population for the FA and maybe another barracks and workshops upgrade.

I think I'll need at least 10 residences to get me through chapters 4 and 5 before I get another set of residence upgrades in Dwarves, unless a future event gives some truly spectacular buildings.

 

[Lelanya]

Preface: my fellowships are on a different server, but the issue is the same.

Thank you, @EarthbornIcarus for raising this issue. I myself am in the same boat as you are.We make a steady 1060, building strong, and one leaves for a better fellowship. So we replace departed, eventually, and start to build up only to rinse and repeat over and over. Then there are gold Spire fellowships who are finding that it hard to sustain their own pace so are poaching from fellowships like mine.

I do at times despair that we will ever get there at this rate, to be honest. But thank you for opening the dialog.

 

[crackie]

Not an AM, but we're a Silver Spire FS with the purple meter halfway through Lab and stuck in a chicken or the egg holding pattern. Half of us want to go for gold, but the other half could care less. AM said we won't make a run for it unless X number of people reach the Lab. As there is no requirement for Spire, there's nothing to motivate people not already there to go further so we'll probably never trigger the rally. Most people say the prizes don't justify the expense to climb to the top. I see the challenge as the Spire itself, to be able to climb to the top while still able to go deep in tourney sustainably. If I can do that, then I don't even care what prizes the Spire spits out. Even if it's spell frags galore in every chest, I'll still end each week net positive and continue to build my war chest. It was a goal I built into my city planning so I can do it, but it's hard to convince someone in chapter 10+ to start running to the top of the spire when they have never had the intention to.

Preface: my fellowships are on a different server, but the issue is the same.

I was surfing fellowships last night on EN server and came across your FS!

 

[ElfGunn]

I do the Spire every week and go as far as I can. I fight up to the first portal, then cater after that.

I'm uncertain which floor is which. Is there an annotated map of the Spire somewhere, or could someone list which boss is on each floor (i.e., little robot, big robot, etc). Thanks

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Many top FS's are making weekly spire gold a must-do. The rewards are making a huge difference between casual play fellowships and gold-winning ones.
The problem is, with teams that are *almost there*, many players are too impatient to help their team get there- and want to grab open spots on the teams that are already doing gold weekly. How does your FS handle the pressure to either go gold, or sink in rankings?
Our team has gotten gold several times now, and many members on our team want to establish it as a consistent weekly thing, but if we miss it by 20 pts one week, it creates anger and frustration towards members who may not have done enough when the rest worked hard to get to top.
Other Arches out there feel the pressure? Please share your advice and strategies.

This is why the loophole in the rank system can help a great lot,
I know some consider it "cheating" but it avoids these issues with fellowships breaking up and destroyed because of the spire.

Once points are made in the spire they stay.
This means if you have a spot with a "throwaway account" that goed to the top and you are a few points short, you can kick that account out of your fellowship and grab another secondary account to get the last few points.

This saves the hatefull comments to those that do less than maximum.

This is also the reason I prefer to keep this system. it's an escape route fellowships have, non of mine need it. but others might as is the above example.

some people do not see gold as gold but make a battle out of it where there is no battle and then go make a fit because "they lost because of cheating" where you lost absolutely nothing, gold is gold there is no benefit between 1330 and 3000 points absolutely none.

I rather have fellowships not be destroyed because of peer pressure and allow these escape routes to exist.

 

[Deleted User - 849192770]

I've been excited recently to find some fragments-only recipes in my MA. Right now I'm crafting a rainbow flower cage entirely out of spell fragments, which seems like a good deal because I have way more fragments than I have catalysts to use with them.

my rule if its only spell frags then craft it

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

my rule if its only spell frags then craft it

only if you can spare the fragments (in many cases this means if you have multiple copies of the moonstone set that overwhelm you with spell fragments)

 

[Gladiola]

@CrazyWizard I find I have an abundance of spell fragments just from doing the Spire weekly. I don't have the hundreds of thousands that others have, but after just 3 weeks of Spire I have close to 20k fragments.

 

[Aritra]

@CrazyWizard I find I have an abundance of spell fragments just from doing the Spire weekly. I don't have the hundreds of thousands that others have, but after just 3 weeks of Spire I have close to 20k fragments.

I depend on the Spire for my frags for the week and usually I can really depend on the first floor to provide a decent wallet. Some weeks back, I only saw frags once on the whole first floor. I had to tighten my belt that week...
(Until recently, I only cleared the first floor and maybe an encounter or two beyond. The last few weeks, however, I've been clearing the second floor. Whoohoo)

 

[DeletedUser27062]

we humans respond much more rapidly to instant rewards.

I agree with your response in general but not with this last line. Humans work harder for longer when rewards are unreliable (and Inno knows this). We are hard-wired to be fueled by hope, to strive for a 'maybe' not a given. It's the anticipation of reward that triggers dopamine, not the receipt of it.