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    Your Elvenar Team

Hide unfair trades coming from outside the FS

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
@SoggyShorts ,
and what about ascended goods ???

Well Soggy, you better hope I never get that far cause I will corner the
market as you say can happen. I'm an Econ player and proud of it...
( yes, I know how to fight too )

As a confirmed Econ player , @ajqtrz is totally right.....
Actually, I said there were two ways. The one quoted here was to boycott the players making the attempt to corner the market.
The other is much easier and can be implemented by just about anybody at or above the chapters where the goods can be produced/traded. Just under cut their prices enough to starve them of profit. Start producing more of the goods they are buying low and sell it at a lower price then theirs. You squeeze the profits to below 10% and they are going to lose.

Having said that, 10% isn't enuff, you almost have to take them below 5% realistically.

Now Soggy, I came from a game where you deposited your goods and paid 10% off
the top for that privilage, just to trade ... then each day, you got taxed another 15%
on any deposited goods still there... ( so thats kinda comparable to the decay you
talk about with say seeds.... True, this game allowed currency (diamonds here) to be
traded , and tier-tier values were closer to act. costs , but there was a thriving economy.

110% those ppl , with no life, that were on 18hrs a day, had a distinct advantage...
All games those ppl have some advantage over the 2-3hr a day players... But, the
deticated Econ players drove the markets. The powerfull Econ alliances, were just
as powerfull as the Military alliances were....

Lets be Clear here, just as World-wide collusion in Leages can manipulate the way
Inno-Games designed them, and gain players more swag than should be possible....
So too is that same type of world-wide collusion in Trading , where everyone wants
basically "swaps @ 1:1", thats basically circumventing the whole Trading System
Inno-Games has created. And now, when a few players are breaking your stranglehold
on your cheating scheme.... "you" cry foul and want Inno-Games to basically scrap thier
whole Trading system, in favor of "your" "swap system" ... (my opinion) thats pretty
darn arrogant and lazy ... Go beat those players @ thier own game and stop whine'n
about them out playing "you"

Doesn't Survivor say - Outwit, Outplay, Outlast , well start Outplaying those "parasites"
or "Econ players" ... don't run to "your" momma ( Inno-Games ) to solve the problem
(cause there isnt one here) for "you".....

Here's another way to beat them, how bout being a real FS, and having a few players
on @ all times of the day... then actually use the chatbox and only put up trades when
both players are on .... the parasites can't suck offers up, when they aren't up for more
than 60 seconds @ a time.....

Remember, if you want a 1:1 only situation, you have to eliminate all other Star trades.
If you allow 3star, then 0-1star are fair game.......

Tell ya what Soggy, when I get that far, you can hire me ... and I can put them outta
buisness for you..... ohh , its gonna cost ya .... ;)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
nd what about ascended goods ???
I haven't hit ascended goods, but my understanding is that they fixed the issue and only 1:1 trades are possible there.

As a confirmed Econ player , @ajqtrz is totally right.....
No, he's wrong too. It would take a heruclean effort to unseat a player who already has a grip on the economy. You can't simply produce millions of decaying goods in order to compete. The parasites have been at it so long that they are in a league that no one new could catch up to.
Even if you did somehow get there, it would be a full time job. Like 10-12h a day checking in constantly. There's not enough gain- the techs are annoying to complete at +30% costs, but not "I'm going to make this a full-time job" annoying.
Lets be Clear here, just as World-wide collusion in Leages can manipulate the way
Inno-Games designed them, and gain players more swag than should be possible....
Glad you brought that up, it's why the players can't fix this problem: lack of communication and tools for organization. According to forum mods "less than 0.02% of players use the forums".
If players could band to gether and fix the trade issue then we would all have ended up in gold league together, right? How'd that work out?
Doesn't Survivor say - Outwit, Outplay, Outlast , well start Outplaying those "parasites"
or "Econ players" ... don't run to "your" momma ( Inno-Games ) to solve the problem
(cause there isnt one here) for "you".....
That's the problem though, we did outlast them. For example I got through the chapter despite paying a 30% premium for everything, and now it's not a problem for me but it will be for the next player to enter those chapters, and the next, etc. Maybe even you if you ever decide to take on the challenge.
Here's another way to beat them, how bout being a real FS, and having a few players
on @ all times of the day... then actually use the chatbox and only put up trades when
both players are on .... the parasites can't suck offers up, when they aren't up for more
than 60 seconds @ a time.....
That's not fun, that's a job and unless someone is paying me $200/h, no thanks. Besides,
Almost no FS have that many Sentient chapter players anyways. Speaking of which, how much do chapter 4 players help with this plan BTW?
Remember, if you want a 1:1 only situation, you have to eliminate all other Star trades.
If you allow 3star, then 0-1star are fair game...
No, that's not true. There is a difference between a sale and price gauging. As explained here:
3 star sentient trades are fine because they are generous and unsustainable. No one can corner the market by constantly posting 3-star trades unless they have a massive factory set up and are therefore actually contributing to the pool of resources. Whatever the opposite of a parasite is.

Non-sentient trades too really. Sure, scrolls have become an issue due to inno flooding the market, but that's a separate issue to this proposal.
The fact is that prior to Moonstone sets & parasites the market naturally balanced itself at 1:1 and no one complained about it.
Clever & and patient players could still post & take trades other than 2-star but the impact was negligible.

Back to the simple analogy of a farmers market(the only one in town, and farmers can't choose their crops nor consumers their diet):
Some guy buys up all (2/3 of each tier obv) of the produce and re-sells it for huge profits in the parking lot. He also camps out all day every day to maintain this advantage.
= parasitic middle man
vs
Some guy shows up offering produce at a steep discount, runs out of goods almost immediately, and doesn't come back for a day or even a week.
= non-factor

Likening zero-star trades to 3-star trades is beyond even your usual mental gymnastics. I imagine your synapses must look like a pretzel after that one. "Price gouging is bad, but hey, let's talk about the real evil: stuff going on sale!":rolleyes:

The whole premise of why we hate the parasites is simple:
They add nothing yet make a profit.
That means someone else takes a loss*.
In this game, this translates to several hundred (thousand?) players taking a loss* while a couple of players per server play their little mini-game.

* "Loss" = they have to spend 10-40% more goods to accomplish their tasks either through bad trades or decay because they got unlucky random boosts assigned to them and parasites exist.
Tell ya what Soggy, when I get that far, you can hire me ... and I can put them outta
buisness for you..... ohh , its gonna cost ya
Big talk from a player so small that people still take your trades out of pity because they assume you're new.
Chapter 4 dude? After Almost a year? Really? How bad are you at this game? I mean by your own admission you can't even handle the pace of events even while your city isn't making progress.
 
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BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
Well @SoggyShorts ,

Rather than multiple quotes and personal attacks .... :rolleyes:

Challange ??? there in NONE in Elvenar , its just about how much $$$
are you willing to spend for those last few chapters.....

Lets take " Sale .vs. Gouging " .... 10%, 20%, 50% ??? what, what is the max "on sale"
something can be ( in your opinion ).... Theoretically if ur try'n to help someone out
with "lopsided trades" whatever the max is, thus determines how many clicks(trades)
its gonna take to get them xxxxx amt of goods..... and if you go past 50% then that
gets into the realm of 0star, since 1star max's out @ 50%.
If on 1 hand you say that a 25% sale ( so offering 125 for 100 ) is OK , then on the
other hand the 25% bump ( offering 100 for 125 ) has to be OK. (same tier)

Now Gouging , well the game allows up to 1:8 or 8:1 , basically +/- 700%, even
when the wholesaler is max'd @ 5:1. Even I would classify Gouging @ >300%.
Basically anything above say, offering 1000 for 3000 ( duhh still same tier )
Because of supply/demand tho, that amount is fluid and can move up/down
untill it reaches whatever the game's maximum is.

So you bit the bullet and paid the 30% and didnt look back.... then you're part
of the problem cause all you did was make them stronger.....:eek:

Next lets talk coordination..... isn't there a facebook group and possible sub-groups ???
don't they have global chat avilable to them ?? I guess Yahoo chats, AOL chats and
every other elliteration of a basic chat no longer exsist, cause if it does...... OMG just
go start a private group of 10-15 players than can coordinate, and grab them from here
and from ingame... its not rocket science......

"big talk from a CH4 player" .... no, big talk from an econ player, and if there
is no econ @ ascended levels why would I want to be that high, and if you
succeed @ sentient goods, same goes for that .... As long as the game is
going to disadvantage early CH players with Bogus trade fees and Boost %
disadvantages ... then I'm gonna be the 1 that hangs in standard goods and
both creates and profits from, a functioning economy in standard goods......
While @ the same time acting as my FSs bank ... Just ask any of the top 7
players in my FS, or anyone in my FS (Khel) if they ever "need" goods cause
they aren't getting thier offers filled ..... I might only need 100k to play spire
but some of them might need 200k to play tourn or spire .... I don't make
1m/week , but I sure as hell have it available.

I specifically said I am NOT progressing and have not done any research
in the last 11 months (khel), AND the fact that I'm dissatisfied with the pace
of the events, not that I couldn't keep up..... open ur ears once and a while...
will ya Soggy....

Apples to apples : Fighting ..... given equal squad sizes, equal troop levels,
and on any terrain ... the simple fact that I get to match up my troops last
means I will never .... thats right Never lose a fight, and no helpers either....
so no DA, UUU, ELR, MMM or any AW/bldg help .....

I play the game, my city is an ends to the means to play the game, not a
game in/of itself. I play Tourn ( enuff for 10 chests 1600+/week ), I play
the Spire all the way, every week, I have deticated FA Space currently,
and I finish all 75 tasks every event...... I'd say I play the game, enuff ....

I could turn my city off and still Cater the Spire for the next 2+ months...
ok, I would still need coins/tools ... but no resource production @ all ....

I'm the one of the top 2 ppl in my FS that actively rebalances out resources
for the whole FS, if not the #1 person ( yes just std resources ) I'm certainly
the #1 FS trader and constantly fills everyone's orders, while still leaving
some up for others... but noone in my FS ever "needs" because they don't
have std goods......

You can try cut me down, but My FS knows otherwise.... my past performance
says I am fully capable of 10-chest/Gold Spire ( well my part of that )....
So I'm gonna take a walk for a soda, knowing ... Yes, I am that good :cool:
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
Again traders aren't the issue, market imbalances are the issue, thats what needs to be solved.
If there would be a market balance mechanism in game. then traders can trade all they want to there hearts content and nobody could complain.

Traders exist (and the complaints) because of market imbalance issues.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
So @CrazyWizard , you're talking about imbalances due to say
Moonestone Library set, or any bldg that gives static goods ???

but someone trading 24/7, can themselves cause imbalances
and that solution is .... other players doing the opposite.....
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
So @CrazyWizard , you're talking about imbalances due to say
Moonestone Library set, or any bldg that gives static goods ???

but someone trading 24/7, can themselves cause imbalances
and that solution is .... other players doing the opposite.....
Imbalances can exist because of a million and one reason.
Moonstone set is one we all know but...
Other buildings, imbalance in type of active players with bonusses, imbalance in pure production based on bonus goods.
It does not matter what causes the imbalance.

If the imbalance is within reason it's not really an issue, but once imbalance goes over a certain tipping point all kind of issues are prevalent.
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
TL/DR the baby city comments( You are ignoring content by this member ) but from the answers I will as Soggy did admit I was finally able to get through Chapter15, and it took many more months and forced me to prioritize only that portion of the game and nothing else. I stepped away from my FS and took on the challenge myself.

Yes I am past the issue and the parasitic trades are not a specific bother to me and I can ignore them. I can gain enough for the spire negotiations I need and the occasional update that requires sentient goods. But for all other players below me, I will fight to get the issue resolved, either by changing the trader so, like, accended goods, sentients can only be traded 1:1 or have the ch 15 requirements adjusted to take the incentive out of the parasitic trade practices. I won't ask that the parasitic trades be banned as I don't know/have proof that they have violated the rules of the game.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Rather than multiple quotes
The bottom line is you think players can fix it, but a player(or even a team if you could gather a few who are at the exact same level) would take longer to wrest control of the market than it would take to get through the chapter so that approach makes no sense.

Go ahead and try it.
Next lets talk coordination..... isn't there a facebook group and possible sub-groups ???
don't they have global chat avilable to them ?? I guess Yahoo chats, AOL chats and
every other elliteration of a basic chat no longer exsist, cause if it does...... OMG just
go start a private group of 10-15 players than can coordinate, and grab them from here
and from ingame... its not rocket science......
Try it. Try and find 10-15 players in chapters 15-17 willing to make this single aspect a full-time job between them.
You keep missing the fact that this isn't an econ game, so most players don't want to be a part of that. If they did, they'd be playing one of those games.
 
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Jiali

Member
I've read through a few pages in this thread and my head spins. I've always been under the impression that supply and demand balance prices out, naturally. If you don't need soap, it's always on sale. When you NEED it, the price naturally skyrockets! (early COVID days make a perfect example). This is why I always try to stock up on things I know I will need at home.

What I don't understand is: What's so hard about just not taking these "unfair" trades and posting trades that are smaller and more "fair"?

When I first saw these crazy trades in Sinya, I thought the traders posting them considered the fact that the goods decay ; require the un-boosted manufactories to be built and also use up MM spells. So, they are asking for a premium for their goods. No big deal. I just won't take their trades!

I think you may not have an understanding of the issue.

Players are posting fair trades only to see them being scooped up by the “parasites” and then reposted as 0 and 1 star trades.

I posted a few 1 star trades when I began chapter 14 just to see what would happen - they mostly sat in the trader decaying! So, these folks who are trying to "scoop up" 2 -3 star trades are losing to decay (in the trader), not me! I'm posting 2 star trades and getting the goods I need quickly - no decay!

Of course, I've only just begun chapter 15. Who knows what I will experience now!:eek:

Not taking one side or the other, just trying to understand the debate

PS. I've noticed that these "parasites" are actually the most helpful to me when I NEED trades done quickly!

(・ω・)b
 

Jiali

Member
PPS. Here's a quote from my search engine about parasites:

"Can parasites be beneficial?

While they lead grisly lives and often aren't the most attractive creatures, parasites can actually be good for our health and some even moonlight as crime-fighters."

:p
 

Jiali

Member
Yes, they are if you like paying 2 times or more of value for the sake of not waiting. Not a big deal if you need 1000 of something, but what about when you need 350,000 are you willing to pay 700,000 for it?
What I'm suggesting is to place YOUR trades but make them smaller so that the smaller cities can get in on the trades. Never pay the premium, unless you desperately need the trades. In which case, you are feeding into the system which seems to be the root of the "problem".

A free market always balances prices naturally
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
What I'm suggesting is to place YOUR trades but make them smaller so that the smaller cities can get in on the trades. Never pay the premium, unless you desperately need the trades. In which case, you are feeding into the system which seems to be the root of the "problem".

A free market always balances prices naturally

Yep. I am in chapter 18 and yet I almost never post any trades bigger than for 10k goods, of any type. Even big cities do not like to take trades for 100k or 200k goods. I almost always see those trades just sit around.
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
What I'm suggesting is to place YOUR trades but make them smaller so that the smaller cities can get in on the trades. Never pay the premium, unless you desperately need the trades. In which case, you are feeding into the system which seems to be the root of the "problem".
You said exactly
PS. I've noticed that these "parasites" are actually the most helpful to me when I NEED trades done quickly!
You are not saying ONLY if they take YOUR trades, which DOES "Feed into the system" as you noted, Stick with one point and you wont get confused.
A free market always balances prices naturally

A free market always balances prices naturally, well then why for the past year + has this been an issue ... Oh yeah it is not TRULY a free market because you are assigned boosted goods and chant change them and if you are assigned the bad boosts for your server you are in deep trouble

make them smaller so that the smaller cities can get in on the trades
Yes, we want the cities in chapter 9 to be able to help with the sentient goods trades "Geez" ... 350,000 in 1 trade or 50 does not matter it is the spread or Premium you pay that is the issue. If you have to pay at 2:1 then does it matter if you pay 7,000 for the 3,500 in goods you need 10 times over? Nope all the same.
 

Jiali

Member
Stick with one point and you wont get confused
Sorry, ed. Must be that adult ADHD kicking in again! :cool:

Sometimes, it seems easier to attack than to analyze. I understand that and it's OK.

Perhaps the problem is not the system but the city? Take a look at the City Planner in elvenarchitect.com It's an awesome tool! You can use it to determine why you are always short on certain goods. It's possible that you have too many of one type of building that makes you feel comfortable but is REALLY not helping you progress the way you would like.

I suppose I'm just really lucky with my city layout and blessed with a great group of neighbors/teammates. I don't have any of these problems!

Best of luck to you, ed! Hope you get all of your problems resolved
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
determine why you are always short on certain goods
I know why I am short on goods, see I am boosted in Gems so I make Silly Soap as my S3 good, and I am sort on Shrooms because I cant make them, and the Parasites have the shroom market inside out on Arendyll. Nope, no city planner is needed here, it's the market, the game, and players that are the issue for sentient goods, not any city layout.
 
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larbby

Member
There is another recent thread going about the same subject. I'd say the same thing I said there, the simplest and least intrusive way to address this issue is to filter out 1 and 0* trades by default. If a user wants to see them, unclick the filter and they all show up...
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Nope. As I explained, with sentient goods there are players who buy up all of 2 types per tier and repost at much higher prices.
Your proposal does nothing to address this.

It's not that's seeing the trades is offensive to the eyes, it's that because all players can see the trades some players will take them, and the practice will continue disproportionally affecting players with "unlucky" boosts(those players effectively pay 20-30% more for anything that costs sentient goods like techs&spire)

The OPs proposal removes the possibility of sustainably profiting the way those players are now and solves the problem.

The players buying up "all of 2 types per tier and [then] repost[ing] at much higher prices" are an opportunity for those producing those two types of goods. Say they buy silk and crystal. They buy "all" the 2 star trades using scrolls. They've gotten rid of the scrolls and now can take the crystal and silk and repost them at 0-star so they make a great profit. Let's imagine it's 1000 silk for 8000 crystal. If they sell that silk at that price then I, as a silk producer, can now sell my silk for 8000, or if I want it to be taken ahead of their offer, 7500 crystal. If somebody takes my trade at that rate, it's worth that to them. But wait, those nefarious villains, still wanting their profit, will lower what they charge, right? But then I can just lower mine. After all, I don't care if I profit as long as I break even. And with sentient goods, the decay makes it even easier since they need a larger amount of profit.

All I'm saying is that there need not be a lot of organization or a lot of players. One person, able to produce whatever it is they "parasites" are making their profit on, undercutting those players profit, brings the price down at the same time it makes a profit for the player doing so. And as the price goes down, it goes down for all.

AJ
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
@Enevhar Aldarion When you say: " Yep. I am in chapter 18 and yet I almost never post any trades bigger than for 10k goods, of any type. Even big cities do not like to take trades for 100k or 200k goods. I almost always see those trades just sit around," I would respond with the fact that I always trade 100k at a time. And many of the larger players around me do the same, probably because we support each other. My trades do, sometimes "sit around," I'll admit, but when I've put up 15 100K trades I don't expect them to go in minutes or even hours. It's usually at most 2 days. The amounts I put up are almost always to insure my fellowship has what it needs of, especially, T2 goods, and since I keep about 2 million in storage I can then re-distribute the large trades to smaller players.

So, while I agree that in some areas the 100/200K trades of which you speak might be rare, in my area they are not.

AJ
 
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