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    Your Elvenar Team

Tournament Score Display

Add FS members that have 0 points to FS Tournament score list

  • In Favor

    Votes: 53 77.9%
  • Not in Favor

    Votes: 15 22.1%

  • Total voters
    68
  • Poll closed .

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
some players choose to start tournament later in the week
Exactly. I have a level 10 polar bear and 30 Timewarp, I start and finish the tournament all within the same 10-30 minutes. Zero to Hero!
Suggesting that the information is readily available by pasting 2 list to a spreadsheet is exactly the reason zeros on a tournament list is a good idea.
and, that's why @LeviathanJob assumed it was sarcasm. Made me chuckle TBH because I knew it wasn't sarcasm, just a terrible opinion.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Nobody likes to be "shamed," but as one poster said, they will think twice about not doing anything if they see themselves listed at 0. And that emotion they feel is shame. So listing any player at 0 is probably going to produce some embarrassment.

On the other hand, maybe that's a good thing. Maybe being reminded you are in a fellowship and should, probably, contribute something to it's efforts, isn't a bad thing at all. It costs to participate, but shouldn't it cost something to not participate? Or to participate at a level well below your teammates? Each FS can decide that, of course, but it seems reasonable to me.

....exactly? NONE of those sites should exist. All of that info should be in-game, or in the wiki attached to the game.
The only exception would be spoilers if this was a modern game with professional developers.

Attacking the developers and implying they are unprofessional and/or behind the times, is an ad hominem fallacy. It that doesn't contribute to the question of if the information requested should or should not be in the game. Please refrain from this type of thing as it's just a waste of everybody's time and sets a bad example. Thanks.

AJ
 

DeletedUser29768

Guest
So listing any player at 0 is probably going to produce some embarrassment.
Yes, this is probably a legitimate form of shame. IMO, having a zero displayed is helpful if it makes players more conscious of what they need to do to help their fellowship. It is not legitimate, however, for someone's fellows to be actively shaming them; this is simply cruel. The correct response may be to remove them from the fellowship, but it should not involve personal attacks. And frankly, if a fellowship is going to abuse someone, it's not going make any difference if there's a zero there or not. Ergo, I still support the idea.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Attacking the developers and implying they are unprofessional and/or behind the times, is an ad hominem fallacy. It that doesn't contribute to the question of if the information requested should or should not be in the game. Please refrain from this type of thing as it's just a waste of everybody's time and sets a bad example. Thanks.
It's criticism that is both accurate and valid. As for what it adds to the discussion, it highlights the fact that other games have implemented almost all of the QOL suggestions that players post on these forums years ago, so we know they are possible.
Let's not talk about wasting other players' time and setting a bad example on the forums, OK? I mean I put you on ignore for many months and didn't miss anything. I certainly didn't miss you telling players what they should feel, think, or say. Thanks.
 

able99

Well-Known Member
I am a little confused about the concern that someone may be embarrassed in a report that no-one actively produces.
My proposal simply provides real time information that may motivate players to contribue more, and perhaps saves the AM or some Mage the trouble to figure out who is not contributing. Its not actively distributed, its just there.
Contrast that with the Weekly Report available in Elvenstats that many fellowship actively distribute to their members. That report, sent to your mail by someone, shows every members growth including zeros or even negatives. It already shows every members tournament points, including zeros.
Where is the outrage that this report can embarrass some members, especially since it is actively distributed.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
It's criticism that is both accurate and valid. As for what it adds to the discussion, it highlights the fact that other games have implemented almost all of the QOL suggestions that players post on these forums years ago, so we know they are possible.
Let's not talk about wasting other players' time and setting a bad example on the forums, OK? I mean I put you on ignore for many months and didn't miss anything. I certainly didn't miss you telling players what they should feel, think, or say. Thanks.

Okay. What, exactly, and how, does your criticism of the devs, accurate or not, say if the proposal should be implemented? That's the question before us. So if the devs weren't unprofessional and behind the times in what way would that determine or influence, not if the they would do the thing, but if it should do it?

As for all the rest? They are just ad hominem and ad populum fallacies over and over again as if the majority opinion is automatically right, and/or my (lack of?) character alone should determine the answer to a question. Sigh.

Please stick to the subject as attacking me isn't helpful and distracts from discussion of the question. Thanks, again.

AJ
 

hvariidh gwendrot

Well-Known Member
i just find the concept of this being hard to do with 25 members, that in most cases the arch mage recruited and know who they are, a bit of a laugh and not hard to do at all
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
What, exactly, and how, does your criticism of the devs, accurate or not, say if the proposal should be implemented?
Again, the fact that other developers have done it proves it is doable, and that there is a template for doing so. This is relevant as one of the most common criticisms or cons listed for an idea is "developer time and effort". While most who read/vote upon this proposal will have little to no coding experience themselves, knowing that a feature is so common as to be basically standard in other games will give them a good idea about the feasibility of its implementation. More to the point: the fact that players have implemented some of these features on their own 3rd party fan sites years ago certainly says something about the developers.
As for all the rest? They are just ad hominem
You wrongly accused me of making an ad hominem fallacy by attacking the developers when it was actually an accurate (and relevant) statement then you proceeded to claim that I was wasting everyone's time. I turned it back to you since you were wrong about the former and were actually guilty of the latter yourself. Maybe keep the stones to yourself while living in a glass house? Thanks again.
i just find the concept of this being hard to do with 25 members, that in most cases the arch mage recruited and know who they are, a bit of a laugh and not hard to do at all
As I said, it wasn't "hard" to find out what KP chest rewards are available for an AW, but it is objectively easier to see them at a glance when the info is displayed right there. The same goes for this proposal.

Also, don't you have like 8 fellowships? If I gave you a list of 199 of your FS members could you tell me the 200th every time without looking it up?

I am a little confused about the concern that someone may be embarrassed
Me too.
A zero score at the end of a tournament indicates something is wrong since you can get all FS rewards for the near-zero effort of clearing a single encounter.
Therefore the most likely reasons are either forgetting or real life, neither of which should be shame-inducing, but knowing which and dealing with it accordingly is probably important to many fellowships.
 

hvariidh gwendrot

Well-Known Member
same fellowship on 8 worlds so once i remember what world i am on the answer is yes .. but everyone knows coming in we all participate so i may say "hey 23/25" in chat thursday as a reminder and almost never have to check after that ..
 
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DeletedUser29768

Guest
Me too.
A zero score at the end of a tournament indicates something is wrong since you can get all FS rewards for the near-zero effort of clearing a single encounter.
Therefore the most likely reasons are either forgetting or real life, neither of which should be shame-inducing, but knowing which and dealing with it accordingly is probably important to many fellowships.
You're right. I can see abuse for a *low* score, since that seems like freeloading, but what's wrong with a zero? You're not getting the reward; it's much more likely that you either forgot, or else you're taking a break. In either case, it gives helpful information to your fellows without any real downside.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
same fellowship on 8 worlds so once i remember what world i am on the answer is yes .. but everyone knows coming in we all participate so i may say "hey 23/25" in chat thursday as a reminder and almost never have to check after that ..
1. I don't believe you that all 8 FS have the same 25 players.
2. Even if you can tell at a glance who is missing from the 25 players, others don't possess your Rainman-like skills. :rolleyes:
 

able99

Well-Known Member
The back and forth discord here is getting way too disrespectful.
The only question here should be "Is listing every member in a fellowship with a zero score at the start of every tournament helpful."
In the the current format fellowship members who have not yet put points on the board is left off the list. We all already know, if a member is not listed in the report, he/she has a score of zero at that point. There can be very legitimate reasons for a zero score ranging from vacation, unexpected rl issues, plan to start tournament later in week, and of course no longer playing.
You can agree this is a good idea, or you can disagree and it is up to you if you want to state why. As far as developers coding time, I suspect there may be a line of code that says "If player score is zero, then don't print player to list. The coding is then very simple, --remove that line of code.--
Maybe the topic is better handled now by putting it to a Vote rather than this open discussion.
I Vote "Yes", zero score should be included
 
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crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
same fellowship on 8 worlds so once i remember what world i am on the answer is yes .. but everyone knows coming in we all participate so i may say "hey 23/25" in chat thursday as a reminder and almost never have to check after that ..
if you're in a chatty group, that "hey 23/25" might scroll out before the missing people sees it though.
 

Myne

Oh Wise One
I vote yes.
That said, if you are offended by seeing a zero next to your name, then perhaps you should get a trophy for participation and find another fellowship or (gulp) play alone. It's an unspoken expectation that you will contribute to your fellowships success. I also agree with the frustration that the developers do not see this lack in their game. I was rather shocked to hear they don't play this game, and my immediate thought was WTF are they doing in the job if they can't be bothered to experience that which they create?
 

OIM20

Well-Known Member
As far as developers coding time, I suspect there may be a line of code that says "If player score is zero, then don't print player to list. The coding is then very simple, --remove that line of code.--
My concern is what other lines of code there are that affect the tournament reporting on a server-wide level. I know it's very doable, this suggestion of yours. But I'm concerned with server load time given that this game makes changes to the tournament reports on a real-time basis. You clear a star, the report immediately updates and shows your point increase. Oh, sure, there might be a five second lag, but there's no one-hour wait like there is for changes in the event spending to determine where you are in the leagues of an event at any given moment.

There's been mention that ES already generates this report. ES does so at the end of a tournament, and only has to pull the information one time during the week. They do pull it directly from the game for all 8 servers, and sometimes it glitches and there's no data for a player, an FS, or an entire world for a week. Then people going to FS and looking at your profile there are asking why you didn't participate in a specific tourney if you're new. (And I was met with radio silence when I pointed out two glitches in one e-mail: the planks tourney was listed as marble for [US5] for 27 Feb and the tourney numbers are entirely absent for 6 Mar. Since I never heard anything and nothing was done about it, I didn't bother reporting that there were no numbers for 5 June.)

The game would be generating this report in real time, so one your cons here isn't just "developer time" (because removing that line of code, debugging, and then testing to make sure they didn't break the game before even putting the new code in front of beta players does take time away from a different project), it's "server load". If you can assure me that the game wouldn't become even more 'laggy' (bug 1, bug 2, bug 3, complaint-turned-suggestion), then I wouldn't have a reason to vote no on this proposal myself. It doesn't affect me one way or the other if it doesn't hinder my game play as I'm not an AM and I'm not getting a -0- score.
 

able99

Well-Known Member
I'm concerned with server load time given that this game makes changes to the tournament reports on a real-time basis. You clear a star, the report immediately updates and shows your point increase.
Thank you for your comment, and the developers should be concern with additional load on the server for any changes. I don't think my proposal asks the server to do any additional work.
As you point out, the server is already doing real time updates to tournament scores, and it does updates to zero score as well. I have not seen the code so I am not really in a position to make a final determination. That is the developers job, and they would test any changes in beta. I would defer the question of feasibility to them.
My pointing out the report from Elvenstat, was only to counter the argument that listing the zeros would embarrass people. Clearly the information is readily available from a 3rd party, and many fellowship distributes the report in game via the mail system. I never heard anyone complain the report was unfair. The way Elvenstat collects the data after the tournament is irrelevant.

In game the servers are already handling the task in real time. I'm only suggesting that the report would be helpful to many fellowships, and I believe everyone benefits when more players participate in the tournament.

It is up to the developers to make the code change, tests it and deliver a glitch free Elvenar.
 
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