Great Bell Spire/Crystal Lighthouse Effect on Culture

[Rythel]

Hey All,

tldr: What is the appreciable effect of the Great Bell Spire/Crystal Lighthouse on culture?

I have been re-evaluating my wonder situation and would like some feedback from those that do have the Great Bell Spire/Crystal Lighthouse. I am a caterer and have been thoroughly enjoying the ability to purchase from a boosted wholesaler 4-5 times a day. My current set-up with wonders includes a Prosperity Towers, Blooming Trader Guild and Watchtower Ruins.

I currently also have a Sanctuary at level 12. As I have been further specializing in catering and moving away from fighting, I am considering removing this wonder. So my question is what is the appreciable effect of the Great Bell Spire/Crystal Lighthouse on culture?

If I remove my level 12 Sanctuary, I will lose enough culture to drop from 150% culture boost to just below the 125% mark. Does the increase in help duration in conjunction with the Watchtower Ruins compensate for this loss in culture? In my head, having a polish duration increase could potentially increase the number of polished buildings by up to 3 times at higher levels as polishes last 3 times longer, but I can't think of a way to mathematically prove this. There's also synergy with the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood which is a strategy I do eventually want to employ. Would building the GBS and selling the Sanctuary see me lose massive amounts of culture until I'm well invested into the GBS?

Thanks guys!

 

[MaidenFair]

Hey All,

tldr: What is the appreciable effect of the Great Bell Spire/Crystal Lighthouse on culture?

Hello, fellow caterer!

I don't know that it can be mathematically calculated, since it is entirely dependent on how many neighbours you have helping on any given day, as well as things like whether you've been using your builder a lot and some helps are likely going there, etc.

However, I can wholeheartedly recommend the GBS/CL. This is a screenshot of my chapter 12 city:

You can see from the numbers at the bottom that almost all of my culture buildings have been helped. This is what it looks like all the time, and I attribute that to the increased time the help lasts because of my Bell Spire. Mine is at level 28, so it may take a little time to get there, but this has been the situation in my city for many months (and wonder levels, haha!). I have a small number of visitors each day who literally have nothing other than my Main Hall to help. I would say I'm in a fairly active neighborhood, but I do see a lot of small cities nearby that can't reach me yet, and it's not too many rings beyond my green explored area that the Great Wasteland begins on one side.

Would building the GBS and selling the Sanctuary see me lose massive amounts of culture until I'm well invested into the GBS?

So, it depends on how active your neighborhood is, but I wouldn't expect to see a huge drop in culture, and you certainly shouldn't need to get the Bell Spire very high to start seeing its effect. You could potentially supplement with a few EE spells every day until it's upgraded a few times, if necessary.

I dumped my Sanctuary when I decided I was definitely going to stick with catering around chapter 6, and I haven't missed it once. Hopefully it will work the same for you!

 

[Lelanya]

I did at one time have both Watchtower (still have it, love it) and the Great Crystal boat Anchor (which I dropped when it was nerfed, still feel I am owed some KPs, Inno). But when the Wonder gave goods for every visit, I loved the effect both together had on culture.

 

[Genefer]

If you take advantage of the culture bonus to purchase from the wholesaler, as I do, then the Bell Spire is a must have wonder, because it increases the duration of the neighborly help polish effect. My level 24 Bell Spire increases the active duration from 8 hours to 21 hours and 12 minutes. The Bell Spire has many benefits.

1 - If you have few active neighbors the Bell Spire fully leveled converts the single polish to the equivalent of 3 neighborly help visits - the longer the polish effect is active the greater opportunity to increase coin & supply production by increasing the number of affected collections

2 - The longer the building's polish is active the greater the number of your culture buildings will be polished. The watchtower ruin increases the culture boost value, which allows for fewer culture buildings needed in your city to reach the 170% - excluding enchantments - culture bonus, The 2 wonders complement one another - The Bell results in a greater number of polished buildings while the Watchtower increases the building's culture potential. - increased production while saving space in your city by decreasing the number of Workshops, Residences, & Culture buildings needed to meet the resource demand of your city.

3 - The Bell Spire also complements the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood's mana production boost benefit - the longer the polish is active more buildings will be polished and polished enchanted mana buildings receive a boost to mana production at collection - when there is an active polish. The increased duration from the Bell Spire greatly increases your opportunity to collect while the effect is active. The Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood also increases the effect value & duration of the ensorcelled endowment enchantments, which decreases the number of enchantments needed.

4 - Of course, will all these enchantments the Dragon Abbey will increase your mana supply dramatically

5 - Standard Goods for 3 neighborly visits daily


In my opinion the Bell Spire, Watchtower Ruin, Dragon Abbey, Prosperity Tower, Golden Abyss, Mountain Halls, Sanctuary, Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood, Blooming Trader Guild, Elvenar Trade Center, Maze of Dark Matter, Sunset Tower, Time Warp, Simia Sapiens, and the Vortex of Storage are essential for any player that uses diplomacy for a large part of their game.


Ancient Wonders are complimentary - the more you have the greater the benefit - they function better as a chain.

 

[Genefer]

My Culture Bonus reached 780 today, but I forgot to take a screenshot. This is the effect of the Bell, Watchtower, Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood, and the Ensorcelled Endowment Enchantment.

And this is the power of the power of provision combined with the culture bonus at 750%

The Bell Spire is the foundational wonder maximizing the potential of complementary Ancient Wonders increasing the value of both the Ensorcelled Endowment & the Power of Provision and creating a monstrously high Culture Bonus resulting in a mind-boggling number of supplies & coins needed to take full advantage of the Blooming Trader Guild's wholesaler benefit

 

[Genefer]

This is the number of supplies per production for my city at 750% culture bonus

0% culture bonus

 

[Genefer]

Oh - the Pyramid of Purification is a great wonder for players that cater, because to cater requires a lot of Orcs, and with the Pyramid those Orcs produce Sentient Goods

 

[FairyInBellbottoms]

Oh - the Pyramid of Purification is a great wonder for players that cater, because to cater requires a lot of Orcs, and with the Pyramid those Orcs produce Sentient Goods

I'm a newbie and have the Lighthouse. I really like it. I fight about half the time in the Tournaments but have to cater in the Spire. This is great info for me!! But, what is the Pyramid of Purification for Fairies?

 

[Genefer]

The pyramid of purification is an Ancient Wonder that unlocks - I believe at the end of the chapter 13. So you have time to consider its value.

 

[Rythel]

Thank you everyone for your input! It seems that the GBS will have a significantly greater effect on my culture than the Sanctuary will. And as I move forward to using more Ensorcelled Endowments with the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood, it will become a key part in that pairing.

You can see from the numbers at the bottom that almost all of my culture buildings have been helped.

This is exactly what I wanted to see! Thank you so much for that!

This is the number of supplies per production for my city at 750% culture bonus

Well that's the dream! I would LOVE my 3-hour productions to be producing over 25% of my capacity! Thank you for showing the viability of this strategy!

 

[Genefer]

I know the Sanctuary/Martial Monastery is most often associated with fighting, and that is true, however, it is also a powerful Culture Wonder.

Consider

My Sinya City's Required Culture is 380,134 - this is the amount of Culture needed to support my buildings.

The Culture Bonus is derived from your city's Available Culture, which is the culture in excess of the required culture, and the neighborly help Culture value Boost.

Excluding Enchantments - the maximum culture possible is 170% - to reach 170% I need my available Culture & Neighborly Help Culture Boost to amount of 650,000 culture value beyond the 380,134 required culture - totaling 1,030,134 culture points.

The sanctuary increases your city's available culture by a % of its required culture, and the culture bonus is determined by available culture. My Sanctuary at level 17 provides 95,034 culture costing 25 tiles - a culture value of 3,801.36 per tile. The Sanctuary provides 95,000 of the 650,000 available culture I need to reach the 170% Culture Bonus.


At level 30 the Available Culture Value provided will be 40% of my city's required culture - excluding changes in my city - the culture value will be 152,053 - a culture value of 6,082 per tile.


My point is The Sanctuary is a powerful wonder for those players who fight, those that cater, and those that do both.


When considering the value of Ancient Wonders, it is important to evaluate them based on their potential when upgraded.



You can find the details of each wonder by level on the Elven Architect site

 

[Alram]

As a 100% catering city, I find the monastery/sanctuary to be a sad use of space in my city compared to the Watchtower. The Watchtower and Crystal Lighthouse/Bell Spire combo is amazing. I might have a higher regard for the Monastery if I was in a low visit neighborhood or if I was running a hybrid city.
I have learned the hard way to be wary when hybrid cities try to give caterers wonder advice.

 

[Alram]

@Rythel
I just went and peeked at your Arendyll city. It made my eyes sing! Such clean lines! Very nice!

 

[Rythel]

I just went and peeked at your Arendyll city. It made my eyes sing! Such clean lines! Very nice!

lol thank you! You can tell I spend by far too much time on Elvenarchitect!

 

[Genefer]

As a 100% catering city, I find the monastery/sanctuary to be a sad use of space in my city compared to the Watchtower. The Watchtower and Crystal Lighthouse/Bell Spire combo is amazing. I might have a higher regard for the Monastery if I was in a low visit neighborhood or if I was running a hybrid city.
I have learned the hard way to be wary when hybrid cities try to give caterers wonder advice.

Apparently, I was not clear when I talked about the Bell Spire's relationship with the Watchtower when I stated they complement each other. To be clear - both is best. I did not ever suggest using the Sanctuary & not the Watchtower - I suggested both and unlike you in your comment I explained why the Sanctuary has a role in a pure catering city.


Please share your experience of "learning the hard way" that a hybrid player is unqualified to give advice to a player that uses diplomacy exclusively.


It is rather bold of you to assume that as an exclusive diplomacy player you have a greater understanding and more experience of diplomacy than I do. I do not recall us having been in the same Fellowship, so other than what I have shared within this forum you do not know my experience using diplomacy. If you read every post, I have written in this forum you would find that my main focus in this game is the Culture Bonus, because of how heavily I rely on diplomacy.


I have no idea your current chapter, or the amount of Tournament & Spire encounters you complete weekly, but here are my details for the current week.

1 - I am in Chapter 16
2 - I climbed the Spire with diplomacy. For perspective - these are the cost in resources for my city

This week's tournament encounters - I catered all 5 rounds of the first 9 rounds - fought 5 rounds of provinces 10 to 25 - all encounters beginning at 26 were catered.

My city's tournament catering costs

I love the Tournaments and always have and since I built the Time Warp, I am able to complete more than previously, but I have earned 13,068 tournament Ranking Points, which I acquired by ranking in the top 100 weekly tournament Scores.


I use diplomacy in the Spire exclusively and have since Chapter 7 and topped it every week until the last 12 weeks of play when the Laboratory rewards became too disappointing for the cost of effort.

The ratio of cater/fighting in the Tournament varies weekly depending on troop availability and how many provinces I open and rounds I complete.

I feel I have enough experience with the catering aspect of the game to justify advising - with examples and explanation - of the value of the Sanctuary to developing a city to use catering successfully.


I admit I am not an expert, but .......

 

[Pheryll]

This week's tournament encounters - I catered all 5 rounds of the first 9 rounds - fought 5 rounds of provinces 10 to 25 - all encounters beginning at 26 were catered.

That image seems odd with seven potential stars. Is it a game glitch or your own creation?

 

[Alram]

I think that hybrid cities evaluate wonders differently than catering cities do. For example, the Sanctuary is a must have wonder for fighting because of the troop health boost.

In my ch8 catering city, a L30 Sanctuary would give 12.3k culture. A L30 Thrones of the High Men would give 19.8k culture.

 

[Sprite1313]

That image seems odd with seven potential stars. Is it a game glitch or your own creation?

Nope; that's the image of the tournament calculator from the Gems website. It's just the mechanics of how it is set up.

 

[Pheryll]

Nope; that's the image of the tournament calculator from the Gems website. It's just the mechanics of how it is set up.

Then it is not a game glitch but Gem's creation. No need to report that to Elvenar.

 

[Genefer]

In my ch8 catering city, a L30 Sanctuary would give 12.3k culture. A L30 Thrones of the High Men would give 19.8k culture.

First, because it is clear I did not communicate clearly, I want to clarify my point of the Sanctuary was not to say everyone should build it. My intent was to demonstrate the Sanctuary is not a Military Wonder exclusively and should not be disregarded, because a player does not use troops.



There are 8 hybrid Ancient Wonders - meaning they have both a resource & military benefit.


1 - The Sanctuary: Available Culture & Troop Health

2 - The Heroes' Forge: Orc Currency & Heavy Melee Damage (Sentient Goods with the Pyramid)

3 - The Dragon Abbey: Mana & Mage Damage

4 - The Pyramid of Purification: Sentient Goods & Heavy Melee Troops

5 - The Simia Sapien: Sentient Goods Decay & Troop Production Bonus

6 - The Shrine of Champion: Orc Currency & Orc Troop Production

7 - The Tree of Enlightenment: Ascended Goods Production Boost & Ranger Troop Production

8 - The Ancestral Resting Place: Ascended Goods Decay & Banshee Production


Does it make sense to disregard the Dragon Abbey's Mana Benefit, the Simia's Sentient Decay, the Pyramid's Sentient ..... because you do not use troops? All of these Ancient Wonders have a vital role to play for a city that uses diplomacy exclusively, a city that uses troops exclusively, and the hybrid city.


So, no you do not have to build the Sanctuary, but it should not be disregarded by players that cater simply because of its troop benefit.



Your comparison of the Sanctuary & the Thrones of High Men necessitates the consideration of what variable/s determine the benefit of Ancient Wonders.

Ancient Wonder Variables:

Coin Cap
Supply Cap
Working Population
Required Culture
Number of Ancient Wonder Levels
Number of Completed Provinces
Squad Size
Armory Levels



The variable for both The Thrones of High Men & Thermal Spring of Youth is the number of Ancient Wonder levels in the city.

The variable for both the Sanctuary & The Watchtower Ruins is the city's required Culture.


The composition of a city that caters exclusively will require more Factories, Residences, & Workshops than a city that fights exclusively.

The catering city will have no need to build the Needles of Tempest, Dwarven Bulwark, Shrine of Shrewdy, Flying Academy, Temple of Toads, or Victory Springs - fully leveled 180 Ancient Wonder levels.

Given the variables, which Ancient Wonder has more value for a catering city - the Thrones of High Men or the Sanctuary?


Using my Sinya City - my only active city at this time

Required Culture - 380,134
Ancient Wonder Levels - 435


Converted to cater exclusively:

Remove my military buildings from the required Culture.

3 Level 35 Armories - 36,651 Culture
Level 37 Barracks - 24,770 Culture
Level 20 Mercenary Camp - 24,770 Culture
Level 24 Training Grounds - 14,352 Culture

Total Culture for Military Buildings - 100,534

Removing these buildings my city's required Culture becomes - 279,600.

A level 30 Sanctuary provides - 111,840 culture for a city with a required culture value of 279,600.


Remove the Ancient Wonders that benefit troops exclusively:

My Military Ancient Wonder Levels -
Needles of Tempest - 21
Dwarven Bulwark - 14
Shrine of Shrewdy - 16
Flying Academy - 21
Temple of Toads - 17
Victory Springs - 16

Total - 105

Removing these Ancient Wonders leaves me with 330 wonder levels.

A level 35 Thrones of High Men provides - 54,450 culture for a city with 330 Ancient Wonder levels.


Your issue is the cost of space for the Culture benefit -

The Sanctuary is a 5 x 5 building - for my converted city the per tile culture value is 4,473 culture points.

The Thrones of High Men is a 4 x 6 building - for my converted city the per tile culture value is 2,268 culture points.


Seems to me the Sanctuary provides enough Culture in comparison to the Thrones of High Men to justify the additional space cost of 1 tile.