Mountain halls ripoff

[nightrider1]

when you click on the benefit for mountain hall it tells you that you will receive a 24% production boost. what they don't tell you is this is 24%of the base line production so instead of getting an expected boost of 500 on a 2000 unit production you end up getting 65 units. For a 4x8 AW this is a royal rip

 

[DeletedUser12423]

So are 19 attempts of 140 keys at 25%, and not getting one set building ^ ^ I hear you. All we can do is hope they make positive changes to things that need them.

 

[Ashrem]

when you click on the benefit for mountain hall it tells you that you will receive a 24% production boost. what they don't tell you is this is 24%of the base line production so instead of getting an expected boost of 500 on a 2000 unit production you end up getting 65 units. For a 4x8 AW this is a royal rip

It's the standard for effects in the game. The same is true for Culture bonuses and Supply bonuses in Workshops. It would be handy to get more, but realistically it would be pretty unbalancing, considering it applies to all manufactories. By the time you get to higher levels it is a significant bump that can easily save a couple of dozen squares of city space by letting you reduce the total number of factories.

On the plus side, it doesn't get any bigger, so at higher levels, when it is even more valuable, it doesn't take up any more space.

 

[nightrider1]

my main point is it should state "base" production not hide it but then again after other things this shouldn't be a surprize

 

[SoggyShorts]

I haven't checked for other chapters, but with at least 3 of each tier level 23 factories the Mountain halls increases production by 24 squares at level 1, making it a pretty fantastic wonder, at least for the late game. Feel free to adapt the calculator for your level of buildings to see if it's worth the space:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hAmCNSeYgz-XI6KgnsmjdlyrXbLamKSr864hvpcbOdw/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Pheryll]

And now for the big question... will mountain halls affect sentient goods?

 

[DeletedUser5800]

After doing way to much math into the Mountain Halls I could never come up with a reason not to have it, but I do agree that they could define the parameters better. When they changed the Blooming trader from saying +6% to +106% I got excited enough to build it, collect the 6% on the first production, notice the release notes said, 'Text change only' and sell again. It is annoying to build something that seems phrased to mean something else.

 

[SoggyShorts]

When they changed the Blooming trader from saying +6% to +106% I got excited

LoL I bet. Double guest race goods? Yes please.

 

[DeletedUser1390]

I haven't checked for other chapters, but with at least 3 of each tier level 23 factories the Mountain halls increases production by 24 squares at level 1, making it a pretty fantastic wonder, at least for the late game.

Am trying to figure out what this means exactly. Firstly, the Mountain Halls takes up 24 squares, so if it increased production by 24 squares that sounds like it would simply be break-even relative to using the space for more factories, which is fine but hardly fantastic (though the pop does add significantly to its value).

But secondly, are you factoring in the boost relic bonus? If you have the max bonus, which most do by the time they have level 23 factories, your factories produce 800% of the base value, to which level 1 MH adds 24%, which is ~1/33. Doesn't that mean you'd have to have 33 factories before the MH produces as much as simply building another factory would? My MH at level 8 gives +56%, which puts the break-even point more around 15 factories, which does make it worth while, though still not overwhelmingly. Taking into account the pop increase I do think it's a good wonder (as well as being graphically and thematically very cool). I am just having trouble understanding what your math means.

 

[DeletedUser12423]

my main point is it should state "base" production not hide it but then again after other things this shouldn't be a surprize

You're right on that. It is somewhat misleading worded the way it is. That should be a simple fix ^ ^

 

[SoggyShorts]

Firstly, the Mountain Halls takes up 24 squares, so if it increased production by 24 squares that sounds like it would simply be break-even relative to using the space for more factories, which is fine but hardly fantastic (though the pop does add significantly to its value).

Right, at level 1 it takes up 24 squares, and saves 24 squares.
If you have 4 of each factory it saves you 32, if you have 5 of each, it saves 40. All at level 1 mountain halls.

But secondly, are you factoring in the boost relic bonus?

Yes, since the only scenario I tested was with my level 23 factories, I assumed max boost.

your factories produce 800% of the base value, to which level 1 MH adds 24%, which is ~1/33. Doesn't that mean you'd have to have 33 factories before the MH produces as much as simply building another factory would?

This doesn't factor in support buildings. For example, a level 23 gem factory needs roughly
24 squares
2 road tiles
45 squares of workshops (assuming 150% culture)
53 squares of residences for the gem factory
35 squares of residences for the workshops
41 squares of culture for res/ws/gem (assuming 340 culture per square from pole of donations) to get 150% culture

Once you start to factor everything into what you need to run a Gem factory, it's closer to 200 squares than the 24 that the building itself takes up.
That is what I tried to do for each tier, and then see how the Mountain halls compares to the GA.

 

[DeletedUser13016]

when you click on the benefit for mountain hall it tells you that you will receive a 24% production boost. what they don't tell you is this is 24%of the base line production so instead of getting an expected boost of 500 on a 2000 unit production you end up getting 65 units. For a 4x8 AW this is a royal rip

But you can upgrade it to higher levels. Also it gives population and rank points. It's not a rip off. Look at it from a dif point of view. Do you really think 24% on the 2000 would be a fair advantage? Don't get me wrong, I would love that kind of boost. It all adds up.

 

[DeletedUser13016]

Right, at level 1 it takes up 24 squares, and saves 24 squares.
If you have 4 of each factory it saves you 32, if you have 5 of each, it saves 40. All at level 1 mountain halls.

Yes, since the only scenario I tested was with my level 23 factories, I assumed max boost.

This doesn't factor in support buildings. For example, a level 23 gem factory needs roughly
24 squares
2 road tiles
45 squares of workshops (assuming 150% culture)
53 squares of residences for the gem factory
35 squares of residences for the workshops
41 squares of culture for res/ws/gem (assuming 340 culture per square from pole of donations) to get 150% culture

Once you start to factor everything into what you need to run a Gem factory, it's closer to 200 squares than the 24 that the building itself takes up.
That is what I tried to do for each tier, and then see how the Mountain halls compares to the GA.

Wow. Great analysis!!

 

[Ashrem]

This doesn't factor in support buildings.

Thanks for that. Your detailed analytics always put things in perspective.

 

[nightrider1]

I haven't checked for other chapters, but with at least 3 of each tier level 23 factories the Mountain halls increases production by 24 squares at level 1, making it a pretty fantastic wonder, at least for the late game. Feel free to adapt the calculator for your level of buildings to see if it's worth the space:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hAmCNSeYgz-XI6KgnsmjdlyrXbLamKSr864hvpcbOdw/edit?usp=sharing

lvl 21 crystal with max relic boost gives 2300/3hr mountain hall with 32 sq adds 66units not much insentive

 

[SoggyShorts]

lvl 21 crystal with max relic boost gives 2300/3hr mountain hall with 32 sq adds 66units not much insentive

Have you compared how much space your level 21 crystal really takes? It needs pop, and culture. It also needs supplies, and those workshops also need pop and culture. and all of those need some roads too.

 

[DeletedUser8187]

Thanks for that. Your detailed analytics always put things in perspective.

Jeepers, Soggy. You really think about all the angles. I'm coming to you each time I'm contemplating between 2 buildings and you can do all the mathy stuff and tell me which is the better deal-le-o. Very impressed. (Those are books of knowledge)

 

[DeletedUser5521]

I think that one of the things most often overlooked when evaluating the benefits of any AW, is that it's usually evaluated at it's freshly built level. And I read people complaining that "it's not worth the space it takes up!" To me, that is one of the beauties of the AW. This, right now, is as LOW as the benefit is going to get (unless the devs decide to "tweak" things again, taking away some of that benefit...as has been known to happen...a-hem...but THAT is a discussion for another thread. Or many other threads..but I digress..) As the AW upgrades, the space it takes up stays the same unlike the manufactories, or barracks, or residences, etc, that they are supporting. And the more of these structures you have, the more benefit the particular AW grants you, and with each AW level upgrade the benefits get better and better, for just the price of KP. For those who want everything now, I can see why this concept does nothing to appease that NOW!! aspect of your personality. But for those who can see the bigger picture...AW's rock! Just my humble opinion

 

[Ashrem]

Have you compared how much space your level 21 crystal really takes? It needs pop, and culture. It also needs supplies, and those workshops also need pop and culture. and all of those need some roads too.

That's also one factory. The mountain halls apply to every factory, which probably around 9 or more times the effect.

Every wonder shouldn't make sense to every person. If it's cut-and-dry that having a particular AW is the only successful strategy, then there's no point in it being there. They might as well remove it and make it part of the base if everyone would automatically want it.

 

[Mykan]

I think that one of the things most often overlooked when evaluating the benefits of any AW, is that it's usually evaluated at it's freshly built level.

Completely agree. It is also why the analysis of its effect is often done based on level 1 as that is the lowest its effectiveness will be. It is pretty rare for a wonder not to be efficient right from level 1 if your city is at the right level too (GA for example).

That's also one factory. The mountain halls apply to every factory, which probably around 9 or more times the effect.

Every wonder shouldn't make sense to every person. If it's cut-and-dry that having a particular AW is the only successful strategy, then there's no point in it being there. They might as well remove it and make it part of the base if everyone would automatically want it.

Some wonders make so much sense to have its ridiculous, yet not everyone has them and some people even argue against them. Its the beauty of the game and its challenges. The same building with the same effects is interpreted and applied differently for different people. Then you have the fact that certain wonders like the MH have a varying benefit based on a persons strategy. A person with 9 factories gets more out of it than someone with 3 but less than someone with 20.