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    Your Elvenar Team

News from Beta - May Contain Spoilers!

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Jackluyt

Platinum Leaf -FB
News from the Beta Server:
People have skipped the optional squad size researches and would like to go back and do these now that the tournament set-up is changing - these researches no longer need Settlement Goods from that chapter - so you do not have to rebuild the Settlement to make these!
:)

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DeletedUser13313

Guest
I’m definitely hardcore.. 17k away from 1 million points and I pretty much reset everything every 3 hours. I’ve taken 1st in the tournament twice. About 12k and 14k, burning a bunch of troop boosters. I’m constantly pushing my Aw’s up and I look at the top players with all of them at level 35 and I’m in awe. Doing 10 chest every week and 5k+ in the tournaments and my highest wonder is only at level 21. With 248 ancient wonder levels and 16 premium expansions, I’m worried about the tournament changes. I will concede that the tournament difficulty needs a tweak or two but using the Aw levels doesn’t seem right. I’m cool with the one fight per province. Don’t like the 5 squads all the time and the random troop selection. 9 extra chest sounds good but if the difficulty reduces my effectiveness then just hitting 10 will be tough enough.
 

DeletedUser21570

Guest
Does anyone see the irony in talking about leveling the playing field for "casual" vs "hardcore" players? Just by virtue of the two types of groups, you will never make the game experience the same for them.

Trying to make the tourney, or any other aspect of this game (or anything really), the same for those who log in often, spend money, hunt ranking versus those who log in occasionally, spend a little money maybe and don't care about ranking seems almost impossible.

Again, I'm not against the changes but it seems the aim shouldn't be to level the playing field for all. That will never happen no matter what they do - because the two types of players will always have diverging motivations and interests for playing the game.

The hardcore player will figure out how to adapt to the new system and "exploit" any unintended loopholes left by the developers as INNO apparently feels they have already done - which necessitated these changes. That will only lead to more changes in the future, more adaptation etc. It will be a never ending cycle.
 

Alpha Lyrae

Well-Known Member
Perhaps they're trying to encourage casual players to engage more > spend more.

Edit: So, not so much about leveling, but retaining. Like you said, hardcore players will adapt. Casual players are likely to quit
 
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SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
So make it so easy for the casual player... and that will translate to retention? To me, that leads to boredom and game hopping. If there is no difficulty level... then there is no challenge.

For Inno to even imply that there is exploitation of their system is appalling since their solution always seems to be a nerf. There shouldn't be any 'loopholes' for anyone to exploit. This isn't taxes and corrupt government agency letting evaders slip through the loops because of payoffs ...

If they create a way for a player to adapt and use the system to their advantage... isn't that what strategy IS?
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
I wouldn't mind it so much if the equation for squad size did a better job at scaling for the end game.

Currently we have: Exponential function(research) * Linear function(city size) * Linear function(wonder levels)

If we changed that to: Quadratic function(research) + Linear function(city size) * Linear function(wonder levels)

we can avoid the ever increasing problems of the latter chapters' tournament SS increasing beyond the training speed and goods production.
 
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DeletedUser7791

Guest
The game is better now than it was before. The spire adds a new level of complexity, and you can see the massive growth of the folks who do the spire each week versus those who don't. The spire rewards make the crafting a powerful advantage.
The tourney will still be hard for some and easier for others. It looks like the difficulty is designed to be about the same if you do 6X6 and get 1620 points. It will be significantly harder to get massive scores though. We shall find out if the difficulty really is punishing or not. I will exploit any loopholes I can find :)
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
we can avoid the ever increasing problems of the latter chapters' tournament SS increasing beyond the training speed and goods production.
Why do you think this is necessarily a problem? It really depends on how they'll scale troops/goods production in the future chapters. And with introduction of such formula for complexity/difficulty all they need to do is to scale things accordingly later on. This is quite common approach. This is usually done to make sure that lower levels are not attractive to higher level players. E.g. today there are many cases where you're better off keeping your manufactories at lower level than the max. That won't be the case if ramp up there would be meaningfully exponential, just like in chapter 16 you're not tempted to build L1 manufactories for actual production. The amounts produced there are utterly inconsequential.

Forcing players through research tree was one of the goals for the changes.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
The game is better now than it was before. The spire adds a new level of complexity, and you can see the massive growth of the folks who do the spire each week versus those who don't. The spire rewards make the crafting a powerful advantage.
The tourney will still be hard for some and easier for others. It looks like the difficulty is designed to be about the same if you do 6X6 and get 1620 points. It will be significantly harder to get massive scores though. We shall find out if the difficulty really is punishing or not. I will exploit any loopholes I can find :)

Good luck starting all over again, I hope you remember how the first chapters work ;)
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
Why do you think this is necessarily a problem? It really depends on how they'll scale troops/goods production in the future chapters. And with introduction of such formula for complexity/difficulty all they need to do is to scale things accordingly later on. This is quite common approach. This is usually done to make sure that lower levels are not attractive to higher level players. E.g. today there are many cases where you're better off keeping your manufactories at lower level than the max. That won't be the case if ramp up there would be meaningfully exponential, just like in chapter 16 you're not tempted to build L1 manufactories for actual production. The amounts produced there are utterly inconsequential.

Forcing players through research tree was one of the goals for the changes.

So after 16 chapters you want to rebuild a game to fit a formula instead of making a formula that fits the game?
Which of these 2 makes more sense?
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
Why do you think this is necessarily a problem? It really depends on how they'll scale troops/goods production in the future chapters.
If training speed is allowed to exceed beyond the rate of increase for training size, then we would have problems of too many armories needed, or devaluing the shrine of the shrewdy shrooms and the dwarven bulwark. We would end up needing to fix several equations to balance things for this one equation.
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
So after 16 chapters you want to rebuild a game to fit a formula instead of making a formula that fits the game?
Unfortunately, there is no such thing as formula that "fits the game". It can fit a particular playstyle, so it will work for you. Or for me. Or for someone else with entirely different playstyle from both of us. But not for all of us at the same time. So making a formula that fits all the playstyles out there is not going to happen. Rebuilding a game with a new formula? Happens all the time, that's rebalancing, and yes, a game changes around a single formula. This gives rise to new strategies and potentially different playstyles again.
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
An exponential function based on research does not force players through the chapters.
This depends on how everything else is balanced. Exponential growth can help with obsolescence of production in the previous chapters.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
If the Goal is player retention, there are many other tweaks that are easier to code and make enjoyment far better... I agree that unlim troop buildup is a bad thing so it needs to be balanced there, but all online games suffer the same fate ..... the Ultra-maniac player will always mess up the the curve so to speak, when trying to keep casual players here and interested.

Since most ppl are far beyond me, in the middle of CH3, let me say.... I avoided a SS increase for 2 weeks, and when I took it... I lost effectively 6 racks of all troops, and my capacity to train was cut by 20%... I'm on way too much, so training 14-16+ hrs a day, and still ... before this increase I trained 1 rack more than I lost last week in Tournament ... and I did 6x6 for 1620 pts..... now I'm training slightly less 1 rack of each if I lose the same amount this week....

Training speed will never keep up with SS increases, so without troop instants, AWs, or Troop bldgs ( which become inneffective it seems after 2 SS increases in a CH, that the Bldg is frozen to ) if a player is chuggn along, and all of a sudden 2-3 SS increases hit them, they really don't wanna wait 1-2 weeks to try and catch up with research for training speed increases.....
IF level'd AWs or AWs themselves also increase the problem, then why have any @ all. You effectively nerf 1 whole aspect of Elvenar.

As far as "exploiting" the rules .... thats just smart gameplay, the problem becomes 1 person figures it out..... then it spreads to 1 FS.... then just like Covid-19, members come/go and soon enuff its server wide.... thus then and only then causing the developers to do something....

Unfortunately, the best source of new revenue to the game is new players, like it or not....because diamonds are NOT a tradeable resource, Elvenar will never benefit from Pay2play players who pay others to do menial tasks and let them concentrate on bigger stuff.... the trade system itself is slanted to older players and really should be revamped....

You don't have to change difficulty to accomidate casual players either..... if a player could spend 4 hrs, 5 days a week and play both Spire and Tournaments.... so for me that equates to 8 hrs to do spire over 2 days 4 hrs each, and 3 days, 4 hrs each to do 2 rounds in tourn .... for my 6 rounds of 6 ...... the casual player that cannot log every 14 hrs for tourn, or 6-8 hr breaks so often in spire so basically just as they get started having fun, it says wait 6-8 hrs....... I guess thats why they give away so many 5 hr time boosters ( thats what I do ).....

Last week with +50% health, I still had to cater the last 2-3 in Tournament, and after I took the SS increase, I don't have the + this week so we'll see how harder it got, but almost any harder and to your average Joe, it would be too hard..... as Im doing better understanding combat. So far that SS increase, did increase Spire cater costs, but not enuff to stop me from @least finishing lvl-2 easily. I did the calc, and I produce 8k/day in resources and the Spire to finish will take on average 30k to cater all the way thru ( if Im on for (6) 3hr productions/day )..... I'd say thats pretty expensive as is..... heh heh.... and I'm making pretty good choices.....

Yes the game needs to be.... non-stagnent to retain older players, not be too hard for new players, increase in difficulty as players get stronger, even adapt itself to player adaptations ...... but if the goal is to get pregressively harder for the sole reason to increase revenue thru troop purchases, then that to me seems counter-productive...
BrinD
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
This depends on how everything else is balanced. Exponential growth can help with obsolescence of production in the previous chapters.
Exponential growth leads to a much bigger balance issue,
  • Anything you saved becomes obsolete
  • with a fraction of you prodution you cannot only help beginner players but eventually everyone under you as well,
  • There is no way turning back once you go this route

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as formula that "fits the game". It can fit a particular playstyle, so it will work for you. Or for me. Or for someone else with entirely different playstyle from both of us. But not for all of us at the same time. So making a formula that fits all the playstyles out there is not going to happen. Rebuilding a game with a new formula? Happens all the time, that's rebalancing, and yes, a game changes around a single formula. This gives rise to new strategies and potentially different playstyles again.
There is a difference between making changes and adapt and starting a new game.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
I believe that there are ways to balance the game without making the sort of sweeping changes that completely change the game. They did that with the "Great Nerfing" a few years ago. They changed the entire economy. When they changed the Crystal Lighthouse/Bell Spire, it had a huge impact on visitation from neighbors because after three chests they weren't getting the additional goods, so why visit neighbors unless you need the coin? They didn't correspondingly change the notifications so that you could visit neighbors who visited you from the notifications because if you are an active trader, there are only a finite number of slots, so your visits disappear. There is no adaptation for that. I've tried the time thing, so that my trades didn't impact the visitation notices, but its not all that solid a strategy, so I miss reciprocal visits from newer people in my 'hood unless I have the time to do a full neighborhood sweep, which isn't something I can easily do when I'm working.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I believe that there are ways to balance the game without making the sort of sweeping changes that completely change the game. They did that with the "Great Nerfing" a few years ago. They changed the entire economy. When they changed the Crystal Lighthouse/Bell Spire, it had a huge impact on visitation from neighbors because after three chests they weren't getting the additional goods, so why visit neighbors unless you need the coin? They didn't correspondingly change the notifications so that you could visit neighbors who visited you from the notifications because if you are an active trader, there are only a finite number of slots, so your visits disappear. There is no adaptation for that. I've tried the time thing, so that my trades didn't impact the visitation notices, but its not all that solid a strategy, so I miss reciprocal visits from newer people in my 'hood unless I have the time to do a full neighborhood sweep, which isn't something I can easily do when I'm working.
1. Neighbor visits don't happen because the visiting system is a steaming pile of dog ****.
I have to manually move about the map, click on a city, then figure out what 'hoodie wants polivating, then try to scroll around and find it, and then finally click on it.
If they would just implement a similar system like the Fellowship visits, a helluva lot more players would visit neighbors, especially with the Spire (and soon the new tournaments), chewing up coins & supplies like mad now!
But no. We still have the same gakky system as we've had since day 1, that takes hours to fully visit even a moderate sized map of 'hoodies! >.<

2. If Inno don't want players earning 200-300+ kp/week from the tournaments, then just maybe, the easiest & cleanest solution would be to, oh I don't know... just change the damn rewards stupid!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :rolleyes:
I mean how hard is that to really figure out? No need to reinvent the entire car, just change the squeaky wheel and swap the bonus kp's for provinces 10+ to say, 4kp/province in R3 and nothing beyond that. (and instead replace the 2nd kp instance with say, MM/PoP spells, or even a new reward entirely, such as say a 'Troop Instant Selection Kit', etc...)
At least then their main pet peeve is nerfed, and then they can look at implementing additional incremental changes if they want to say, make the early rounds easier for newer/smaller players.

Instead, they've burned the entire thing to the ground & salted the earth just to effectively 'kill the spider'. Genius. o_O[/B]
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
If Inno don't want players earning 200-300+ kp/week from the tournaments,
We don't know what Inno wants. I consider it much more likely that what they don't want is people getting 10,000 points in the tournament so that other players think "What's the point even trying for the top when I don't have enough provinces to get that many points even if I was willing to spend $500.00 on diamonds this week."
 
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