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    Your Elvenar Team

Armories: How Many is Too Many?

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Your AW tile footprint is the same as mine (8%) but your city has 30% more expansions than mine. Please realize that, as you add battle AWs to your city you are increasing your battle costs while increasing your battle strength - probably a neutral strategy; one keeps pace with the other. But you are adding AW levels that will further increase your catering costs without amplifying your resources. It is quite possible that the course upon which you are now embarking will require you to move from 50-50 to 40-60 or more. You might be pushing yourself to be more battle intensive by making catering still more expensive. So why not sell most of your nonmilitary AW and move to battle without the added costs?

Alternatively...

I have never experienced the style of resource management that you have pursued, so my understanding is limited. But, as an alternative to developing battle strength, tune up the resource AWs. If I were to try it for myself I might sell the PoP and acquire ETC, BTG, possibly CL(GBS).
There is a strategy that makes harvesting resources from the wholesaler really cheap and cost effective but it requires keeping a 700% culture bonus which requires an LGN and 200-300 neighborly visits per day.

If you are able to maintain a 50-50 strategy that works for you, please let us know.

As mentioned in the OP, I have been a half/half kind of player but now I am leaning towards fighting. The half/half approach is not really sustainable in Chapter 17, given the costs ... I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear in the opening post. But yes, it's a given that I can no longer sustain half/half. That's why I need the advice on building the military side.

Thanks for the thoughts on the AW wonders and their effects. That is something very much to consider and you offer a great deal of food for thought.

Yes, we are very different. As far as I'm concerned, the PoP is one of the most valuable wonders I have. With it, I can do with four workshops what others might need a dozen to accomplish. There's never a day when I don't get tons of goods from the wholesaler just with the excess supplies I acquire thanks to the PoP. The PoP is probably the reason I was able to cater for as long as I have. It works well with my higher level BTG to make the wholesaler affordable.

EDIT: Ooops ... didn't realize you meant Pyramid of Purification. I thought you were talking about Prosperity Towers. My bad! But I would never get rid of the PoP ... love love love getting sentient goods with my tons of orc nests. Yes, it really does depend on how people play ... without a ton of orc nests, the PoP is less important. And if you're not into sentients yet, that makes a difference too. Believe me, in Chapter 16 that was a lifesaver. That chapter requires more orcs than any other, I believe, so why not get sentients while building a ton of orc nests. :)

As far as Crystal Lighthouse goes, I had it once. It was my least favorite wonder and I sold it as not being worth the footprint. So yes, different strokes for different folks! :) But I will consider the addition of the ETC you mention. Thanks.
 

Yavimaya

Scroll-Keeper
I personally tore down all non military aws except for the golden abyss (obviously, small and lots of added pop) and my prosperity towers as those extra supplies really add up and are much needed to keep producing all those troops/ increased training sizes. I night have one other non military but forget which one but can check later.
 

Gkyr

Chef
I personally tore down all non military aws except for the golden abyss (obviously, small and lots of added pop) and my prosperity towers as those extra supplies really add up and are much needed to keep producing all those troops/ increased training sizes. I night have one other non military but forget which one but can check later.
Agreed. I have those two as well and no other non military.

But squads are supplies; supplies are untrained squads. Battle losses cost supplies and nothing else except perhaps time boosts.
Therefore, one might consider the prosperity tower as an honorary military AW.
 
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Gkyr

Chef
As far as Crystal Lighthouse goes, I had it once. It was my least favorite wonder and I sold it as not being worth the footprint. So yes, different strokes for different folks! :) But I will consider the addition of the ETC you mention. Thanks.
To be clear, the nonmilitary AWs that were mentioned were just musings on my part on how one might wage a 50-50 campaign. I think I was clear about my opinion of the 50-50 strategy and I was not advising you on any particular build because I haven't been there and done that.

For all of us, cities give us a chance for experimentation. With regard to S/T costs, AW upgrades are reversible; expansions are not. If you can experiment in the space you have then very likely you will find how to cope with or decrease the present costs without incurring increased ones.
Again, we will wait to hear what works for you.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
So many variables and factors more information could tailor a better response. People talk about cater verse military like its one or the other, my experience is most towns are balanced, they do both and adjust to the situation with the best strategy they have at the time. Cater only towns are fairly common but combat only are much rarer in my experience.

With armories and combat a big part of it is production. The more troops you produce the more combat you can do as the more losses you can sustain and just replace in the next week. If one is not doing a minimalist wonder build then having the wonders that speed production becomes important and the level of those directly impacts armory numbers. Ideally you want your armories producing 24/7 and the queue time required for that varies for each person, it might be 6hrs, 12 hrs or 24hrs. Personally I found 15-20hrs was good for me has it gave me flexibility to not feel pressured to constantly log in. Your brown bear and its useage is the other consideration. A longer queue means either less feedings or just more efficient ones. Lets say you only feed bear once a week there is a difference in waiting for the 3 buildings for 6 hrs verse say 48hrs and then feeding.

Something else for you to consider with your town that no one has mentioned is your sentient factories, you mentioned 2-3 of these. That has to be brutal on the seeds production and with alternating between seeds and unurium could be a big drain on your towns space and economy. I know a few towns who use their pyramid of purification and armories to produce sentient goods instead of sentient factories. My town could do this but I keep balking at the final step of removing all the sentient factories. However just dropping to 1 sentient factory and backfill that space with armories could save you in a lot of ways. For my town it completely removed any pressure between seeds and unurium which helped a lot and saved a lot fo time waiting for those things. Again lots of variable to monitor and teleport spells are your friend so you can experiement with putting things in and out of the town.

I would also suggest especially between chapters making sure those builders are building something. I find people often have spare factories in the inventory but not armouries. Build up a few spares and keep a variety of factories and armouries sitting in your inventory. It is much easier to work out some ideas when you can simply teleport a few buildings about and try an idea for a week or two.

Of course supplies to support your amrories is important but a couple magic WS will take care of that too, looking at your town that should not be an issue.

Personally when it comes to armouries the question is not how many but how few, whats the minimum you want/need.


Should I do flying academy or heroes forge, in addition to shrewdy?
It doesn't need to be either or, most wonders shouldnt be compared to each other unless they offer the same thing. Fair enough to compare GA to MH to Thermal springs when looking at people but comparing different rewards isn't always beneficial. The point of the shrooms in the recommendations above is to increase armory size, that is instead of another armory in relation to your inital inquiry. Some simple calcuations can quickly tell if a shrooms and what level is better than another armory in terms of training size.

Heroes forge will be around orc production, HM troops and sentient production (synergy with Pyramid of purification). Depending on armouries you might not need more orcs and if you don't use HM troops much then no point building this. If you use HM troops a lot then the exra damage can be worth it.

I am in Ch. 15 with only 100 expansions and only 10 carefully selected AWs. I can find no other city with this slim profile. Not saying this is the only way to go, of course.
Definately not alone, I see plenty of low wonder towns, I know of one with normally 3 wonders and they are able to dominate tournaments. They have recently played/experimenting with a 4th wonder and have a temporary lvl 6 (5th) wonder, up to 5 wonders now (it changes every now and then). They monitor their town and wonders go up and down as needed.

Please realize that, as you add battle AWs to your city you are increasing your battle costs while increasing your battle strength - probably a neutral strategy; one keeps pace with the other.
There are probably 50 pages if not 100 pages of complaints when the tournament system changed that would disagree based on experience that they keep pace. There is a point at which they will but at some stage they don't, its not a linear increase. A lot of older players just hate the idea of deleteing high level wonders. It is also the reason a lot of people have and do delete wonders now or limit wonders in their town, its also why some wonders are rarely built as the costs often if not easily outwight the benefits.
 
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Henroo

Oh Wise One
I personally tore down all non military aws except for the golden abyss (obviously, small and lots of added pop) and my prosperity towers as those extra supplies really add up and are much needed to keep producing all those troops/ increased training sizes. I night have one other non military but forget which one but can check later.
I am a heavily combat focused player and I also have GA and PT in all of my cities. I would add Blooming Trader Guild to the list of non-military AWs which are essential, assuming you want to play the end game chapters. I did not think BTG was that important as long as I could use portal profit spells to keep moving at a good pace. But then I hit ch 17. PPs are totally nerfed in that chapter and you are forced to make the guest race goods. I built and leveled BTG in that chapter for the bonus to guest race production. It was fairly easy to level quickly since I spent so much time tech locked and was able to dump so much KP in it.

However around the time I hit level 21 with BTG I realized that a single wholesaler purchase was now equal to nearly the daily output of a max level boosted manufactory. At that point I went all in on buying from the wholesaler. I've got 4 workshops per city. In Khel and Arrendyll they are all magic. In Winy 2 are magic and 2 are normal (have had bad luck winning magic WS from the spire in that city). I started dropping a Power of Provision spell on each workshop daily. Since I have Prosperity Towers that makes so many supplies I can buy each type of good at least twice daily. With that many goods coming from the wholesaler, I was able to teleport all my manufactories out of my city except the ones making sentient goods. The savings on space and population has been TREMENDOUS. Had I realized this kind of strategy was possible, I would have built Blooming Trader much sooner.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Something else for you to consider with your town that no one has mentioned is your sentient factories, you mentioned 2-3 of these. That has to be brutal on the seeds production and with alternating between seeds and unurium could be a big drain on your towns space and economy. I know a few towns who use their pyramid of purification and armories to produce sentient goods instead of sentient factories. My town could do this but I keep balking at the final step of removing all the sentient factories. However just dropping to 1 sentient factory and backfill that space with armories could save you in a lot of ways. For my town it completely removed any pressure between seeds and unurium which helped a lot and saved a lot fo time waiting for those things. Again lots of variable to monitor and teleport spells are your friend so you can experiement with putting things in and out of the town.
Yeah, I had three of each sentient factory (bismuth, moonstone and obsidian) and the only way I could manage seeds was by having 15 leveled Festival Merchants, which of course took tons of space. By paring down to two sentient factories each, I was able to do without a couple FMs, too, so that space was enough for a shrooms and more. The Pyramid of Purification also helps with sentient goods, so I don't need 3 each, especially now that I'm in the latter half of 17. I'm in no hurry to get to 18.

The brown bear and fire really are game changers. I don't think it's fair to new players who don't have them and who have such a hard time getting the artifacts. In my little Arendyl city, I have no brown bear. Makes a big difference.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I am a heavily combat focused player and I also have GA and PT in all of my cities. I would add Blooming Trader Guild to the list of non-military AWs which are essential, assuming you want to play the end game chapters. I did not think BTG was that important as long as I could use portal profit spells to keep moving at a good pace. But then I hit ch 17. PPs are totally nerfed in that chapter and you are forced to make the guest race goods. I built and leveled BTG in that chapter for the bonus to guest race production. It was fairly easy to level quickly since I spent so much time tech locked and was able to dump so much KP in it.

However around the time I hit level 21 with BTG I realized that a single wholesaler purchase was now equal to nearly the daily output of a max level boosted manufactory. At that point I went all in on buying from the wholesaler. I've got 4 workshops per city. In Khel and Arrendyll they are all magic. In Winy 2 are magic and 2 are normal (have had bad luck winning magic WS from the spire in that city). I started dropping a Power of Provision spell on each workshop daily. Since I have Prosperity Towers that makes so many supplies I can buy each type of good at least twice daily. With that many goods coming from the wholesaler, I was able to teleport all my manufactories out of my city except the ones making sentient goods. The savings on space and population has been TREMENDOUS. Had I realized this kind of strategy was possible, I would have built Blooming Trader much sooner.
Yep ... I had BTG and then sold it early in game. Around Chapter 13 I built it again and oh, mama, what a big difference. Really necessary to boost those s-l-o-w-l-y acquired shrimp, pearls and keys.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
Yep ... I had BTG and then sold it early in game. Around Chapter 13 I built it again and oh, mama, what a big difference. Really necessary to boost those s-l-o-w-l-y acquired shrimp, pearls and keys.
Yes, that is the reason I built it. But I think the impact it has on the wholesaler is just as important. And I did not expect this when I started it. It was a VERY pleasant surprise. In my Khel city, my main hall is level 39. My Blooming Trader is L26. With this a single tier 1 wholesaler purchase gives 73,600 goods. A T2 purchase gives 49,220. And a T3 purchase gives 32,660. Once I started relying on the wholesaler and I teleported all my standard good manufactories out of the game, I was able to greatly expand my guest race settlement and really start making good progress. Even though I've now finished ch 17, I have no plans to bring my manufactories back. No need. Goods continue to pour in from the wholesaler.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
Yeah, I had three of each sentient factory (bismuth, moonstone and obsidian) and the only way I could manage seeds was by having 15 leveled Festival Merchants, which of course took tons of space. By paring down to two sentient factories each, I was able to do without a couple FMs, too, so that space was enough for a shrooms and more. The Pyramid of Purification also helps with sentient goods, so I don't need 3 each, especially now that I'm in the latter half of 17. I'm in no hurry to get to 18.
If you cut back on the catering, you might be able to further reduce your sentient good manufactories. I am pure combat and I only have 1 of each sentient manufactory. Sentient goods are never an issue. Mind you, I have leveled Simia Sapiens in all my cities so decay is cut back and I have Time Warp so there is a production bonus. I have Elvenar Trade Center, so when I drop a Magical Manufacturing on my sentient factories, the effect is enhanced. Also, I do have nearly the full collection of evolving buildings, many of which give sentient goods. And I have fairly large Moonstone sets, so extra Gum Trees and Moonstone Gates giving sentient goods.
 

Gkyr

Chef
Definately not alone, I see plenty of low wonder towns, I know of one with normally 3 wonders and they are able to dominate tournaments. They have recently played/experimenting with a 4th wonder and have a temporary lvl 6 (5th) wonder, up to 5 wonders now (it changes every now and then). They monitor their town and wonders go up and down as needed.

yes, but how many limit themselves to 100 expansions? That seems to be the major key to lower cost encounters. Admittedly not the only key.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Yes, that is the reason I built it. But I think the impact it has on the wholesaler is just as important. And I did not expect this when I started it. It was a VERY pleasant surprise. In my Khel city, my main hall is level 39. My Blooming Trader is L26. With this a single tier 1 wholesaler purchase gives 73,600 goods. A T2 purchase gives 49,220. And a T3 purchase gives 32,660. Once I started relying on the wholesaler and I teleported all my standard good manufactories out of the game, I was able to greatly expand my guest race settlement and really start making good progress. Even though I've now finished ch 17, I have no plans to bring my manufactories back. No need. Goods continue to pour in from the wholesaler.
Oh for sure ... as I said, I couldn't have catered for as long as I did without the ton of stuff I got from the wholesaler. So true, that! My blooming trader is only at 22, I believe, so I need to enhance it further.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
Wow... what a load of info here... I think I should reassess my Khel city. I have five armories because I need the orcs for the mercenary camp and for negotiating. I have all the military AW's, although at the moment I am concentrating on maxing out my GA because that is the most efficient AW. I lose loads of fights even when placing multiple boost builds and feeding my fire chicken. I have a lot of things that people say are unnecessary but I dunno. If I like the way they look, I keep them. An Urban designer I am not. I will never be a top tier anything in this game, lol I am not the sort to cut a building just because the newest thing is shinier and brighter, especially when they come out with the ugliness that was the orcs and I wasn't too fond of the dwarves stuff either.. I wish we could level things up without changing the look... I'd have a city of fairies and woodelves.
 

MichaelMichael

Day and Night Trader
Any advice you can give to this "experienced newbie" if that makes any sense, I'd appreciate. I'll be back soon, and thanks!

The minimum is enough to use an 8 hr time instant. The maximum, well, there is no maximum. I have looked at high level players with 20 or more. I personally have 8 (at max level, having completed all chapters) and I am building more. Orc always seem in short supply. I also have 7 Orc ships (chapter 19). I am likely to put out 10 Orc Nest as well. I open 50 provinces. Goods I have, but Orcs always seem to be in short supply. I recommend MORE when it comes to Armories. I have several level 30 AWs waiting for Orcs. If you cater, you need more orcs. This is just the way it is.
 
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Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
The minimum is enough to use an 8 time instant. The maximum, well, there is no maximum. I have looked at high level players with 20 or more. I personally have 8 (at max level, having completed all chapters) and I am building more. Orc always seem in short supply. I also have 7 Orc ships (chapter 19). I am likely to put out 10 Orc Nest as well. I open 50 provinces. Goods I have, but Orcs always seem to be in short supply. I recommend MORE when it comes to Armories. I have several level 30 AWs waiting for Orcs. If you cater, you need more orcs. This is just the way it is.
I ran out of orcs during chapter 16, at one point going down to only a few hundred. I thought (hoped) that maybe orcs were finally over and that they'd concentrate on other things in Chapters 18-19, but I guess that's not true. I've only got about 800K; I'm going to need to build up. I had a dozen orc nests out during chapter 16 but now I only have 4 out (those ships and portal have a ridiculous footprint). Yeah, I think I will add that extra armory. I'm about 2/3 of the way through 17 but the way this chapter is crawling at a snail's pace, I'll probably be here till Christmas, lol.
 

MichaelMichael

Day and Night Trader
I ran out of orcs during chapter 16, at one point going down to only a few hundred. I thought (hoped) that maybe orcs were finally over and that they'd concentrate on other things in Chapters 18-19, but I guess that's not true. I've only got about 800K; I'm going to need to build up. I had a dozen orc nests out during chapter 16 but now I only have 4 out (those ships and portal have a ridiculous footprint). Yeah, I think I will add that extra armory. I'm about 2/3 of the way through 17 but the way this chapter is crawling at a snail's pace, I'll probably be here till Christmas, lol.
The killers needs for Orcs me are both Catering which needs several hundred every week and all the AWs I cannot upgrade. Level 30 for MANY AWs needs 265k in Orcs. That one is stopping a lot of upgrades. Armories are the most space efficient source of Orcs. my 8 produce 2,700 every 12 hrs each or about 300k per week. The 7 Orc ships produce another 130k. The tourney has not started. I have just 175k. If you are goods oriented, you need a whole lot of Orcs. Many encounters past level 40 want 50k orcs for just one cater.

My rule of thumb is to save my troops so I can fight those encounters that need Orcs. ... and I still run out of Orcs every week.
 
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SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
I wish they had used butterflies instead of the ugly orcs. If I didn't need them for neg and upgrades, I wouldn't have them at all. Buttlerflies would be better.... Or even a carnivorous venus fly trap or something. The orcs are ugly. Did I mention that?
 

Flashfyre

Well-Known Member
I wish they had used butterflies instead of the ugly orcs. If I didn't need them for neg and upgrades, I wouldn't have them at all. Buttlerflies would be better.... Or even a carnivorous venus fly trap or something. The orcs are ugly. Did I mention that?
Personally, I like the Orcs. They're cute, in a "Gonna-kill-U-wit-yur-own-arm" kinda way. And they have such adorable little pets called Goblins.
OTOH, I really don't get the whole flowers-and-fairies thing; in my few encounters with the Fae, they're usually a bit more...aggressive about dealing with strangers.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
There is danger in beauty though. The buildings for the Orcs are not pretty. When I had to upgrade from the faeries... my cities became rather dark. I just wanted my cities to look pretty although if you visit any one of them I am NOT a master of urban planning by any stretch of the imagination, but with the flowers and stuff, it didn't look near as bad...lol
 
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