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    Your Elvenar Team

Map Related Issues

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper, Keys to the Gems
Would you rather have 24 trading partners, or 324?
I would like a mix of both, I don't think there is an either / or situation in Elvenar. I, check resources, see what my fellows need, see if anyone is asking for my boosted, check on small cities, and then post my own.

After seeing the sentient trading market, I should point out, that there are players that I avoid helping when they want my boosted, even if they have posted 3 star trades (this time around). In that case, I post my own and advise my fellows that I have trades up that I would rather they got, than ... the sharks in our realm.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Would you rather have 24 trading partners, or 324?
If all of your trades are taken before logging back on does it matter if it is 24, 324 or 1? Granted 1 is an extreme example and higher risk. A higher number really only means less risk from people quitting.

Where the trading partners is probably most advantageous is not basic goods but ascended goods. Despite a global market the trading is glacial and restricted (amounts and number of trades), unless you have online trading partners. Again a FS is easier simply due to communication but more active trading partners can make a huge difference here as not everyone in a fs will have ascended goods.
 

muffy.

Chef - Scroll-Keeper - Chandelier Swinger - EAA
Would you rather have 24 trading partners, or 324?
I’d rather do just what I’m doing and play the game how it’s given to me . To me , Scrolls of Knowledge is just that …scrolls of info on how to play the game . It’s not scrolls of how to manipulate things to suit your needs. It’s a group effort game. So no … im not a fan of this…sorry nothing personal . If it was voted on at least you know where my vote would be.
 

Katwick

Cartographer
It’s not scrolls of how to manipulate things to suit your needs. It’s a group effort game.
And now that the neighborhoods function well, we have viable World Map Groups, and especially so for balanced trading.

I'm trying to show that there's now more to the game than just a thousand isolated Fellowships.
 

Katwick

Cartographer
So we are now not talking about Maps and placements, nor Trades and Whloesalers, nor Trading Partners, so now we are into isolated fellowships?
Up until about six months ago, your city was stuck wherever it initially landed, and a lot of neighborhoods were slums with a lot of Goldmines. Paying attention to trading with the other cities in your local neighborhood was pretty much pointless, so folks turned to their Fellowships for most of their trading, in large part because most Fellowships kick out inactive players.

But now, finally, InnoGames is ALSO kicking out inactive player (from active neighborhoods) and moving isolated players into active neighborhoods.

There are 9 unique triples (boost combinations), due to the way the map is structured. Boosts tessellate using a 9 city pattern with 18 Relic tiles.

Isolated Fellowships were the direct consequence of a very spotty trading environment. Now that trading is healthy, neighborhoods are FAR more balanced than the typical Fellowship.

It's now very much worth your effort to understand how the world map is structured, so that you can Find and Develop your Ideal Trading Partners.
 
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DeletedUser22644

Guest
So now you are saying, if I understand your "logic" the only/main reason for joining an FS was to secure a balanced trading environment, and that now since the "move changes" that is not needed and you can do better, trading wise, outside your FS? Is that correct?

Why do you assume that
... It's now very much worth your effort to understand how the world map is structured, ...
is not known by players, and yes I am sure many dont "see" that unique structure the way you do, but to the casual player it does not matter nor does it prevent them from playing and enjoying the game.
...Ideal Trading Partners.
I find them in my Fellowship no need to look for more, and if my fellowship no longer can provide or satisfy my needs I will find a new one.
Isolated Fellowships were the direct consequence of a very spotty trading environment.
I guess I am still trying to understand your Idea of "Isolated Fellowship" ... If your Fellowship is providing what you need/want in game what does it matter "where" it is located on the "map" By virtue of being in a Fellowship you are by nature NOT isolated as you have up to 24 Virtual neighbors that, if an active and vibrant FS, are always home.
 

Katwick

Cartographer
So now you are saying, if I understand your "logic" the only/main reason for joining an FS was to secure a balanced trading environment, and that now since the "move changes" that is not needed and you can do better, trading wise, outside your FS? Is that correct?
Fellowships are superb for Tournements, Spire, and Special Events, and InnoGames richly rewards such group efforts. But there are no such incentives favoring Fellowship trades. To the contrary, the elimination of the 50% tax for accepting trades from an undiscovered city (they can see you but you can't see them) is a common incentive for clearing a few extra encounters.
I am sure many dont "see" that unique structure the way you do, but to the casual player it does not matter nor does it prevent them from playing and enjoying the game.
If a system is well designed then it shouldn't be fussy for the great majority of users, who aren't particularly interested. But now that active cities are being clustered together, I'm pretty happy with the technical aspects of our trading environment, and it's a wonderful playground for those of us who enjoy optimization.
I find them in my Fellowship no need to look for more, and if my fellowship no longer can provide or satisfy my needs I will find a new one.
A great many experienced players have developed some pretty bad (Fellowship-Centric) trading habits, that were necessary and appropriate for cities that were surrounded by Goldmines and inactive players.

But here are a LOT MORE Neighborhood than Fellowship traders, and their Boosts are predictable and evenly distributed.

But you can actually have your cake and eat it too. If you happen to like trading, then just buy more than you need for yourself, and pass the fruits of your labors on to the less interested members of your Fellowship.
 
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DeletedUser22644

Guest
I think I preferred your first responses at least then I could pretend on your 4 letter answer
So now you are saying, if I understand your "logic" the only/main reason for joining an FS was to secure a balanced trading environment, and that now since the "move changes" that is not needed and you can do better, trading wise, outside your FS? Is that correct?
....
So since you are not going to answer I will just let this go and write-off the time spent.
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
Fellowships are superb for Tournements, Spire, and Special Events, and InnoGames richly rewards such group efforts. But there are no such incentives favoring Fellowship trades.

A great many experienced players have developed some pretty bad (Fellowship-Centric) trading habits, that were necessary and appropriate for cities that were surrounded by Goldmines and inactive players.

But here are a LOT MORE Neighborhood than Fellowship traders, and their Boosts are predictable and evenly distributed.
.
We don't need a scrollkeeper post for this info. We have this conversation every couple of months at least. Players should join together in FS with like minded players. Players who don't like the FS rules should definitely go forth and find their happy place. There are lots of free trade fellowships.
 

Katwick

Cartographer
A CITY MOVE ALGORITHM REVIEW

This post is a thought exercise that's based on casual observation, hunches, and good programming techniques. This thread is NOT any sort of complaint thread, as the city moves are working delightfully well; rather it proposes a possible scenario that's consistent with recent observations.

You are very much invited to offer observations that will allow us to refine and/or validate our understanding of the City Move Algorithm.

 GOLDMINES
A Goldmine indicates that a city sector on your local World Map:
  • Has never been occupied
  • Had a deleted city
  • Had an archived city
AUTODELETE CITIES
I've never seen a Goldmine that only lasted a few hours, so I'm assuming that InnoGames maintains a list of Autodelete Cities, sorted by distance from the world map center. Eligibility for the autodelete list MIGHT be:
  • Diamonds have never been purchased nor earned
  • The city is still in chapter 1
  • The owner has not logged in for at least a month week
SWAPPABLE CITIES
Perhaps the same list includes ALL Inactive Cities, but the larger cities will be swapped with an Isolated City (more below) rather than Autodeleted, or else archived, and eventually deleted.

(Edit) Note that an Isolation Metric needs to be calculated for a Swappable City as well, to avoid swapping an Isolated City to an even worse location.

If the owner of a Swapped City starts playing again, they won't know most of their neighbors, and they'll probably see a few Goldmines, but they'll soon be recognized as an Isolated City that's eligible for relocation.

ARCHIVED CITIES
When you search for a player by name, you'll occasionally get a city that returns you to your OWN map when you click on the World Map icon in their city, so there are apparently archived cities that no longer have a World Map location, perhaps for several months.

NEW USERS
Throughout the week, New Users seem to replace the Autodelete Cities and Goldmines that are the nearest to the center of the World Map.

RECENT LOGONS
https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/city-movement.28895/post-252898
indicates that:
  • Position on the map
  • Matching Boosts
  • Recent logons
Are the only criteria for "active", which is a weak metric for Trading Activity.

ISOLATED ACTIVE CITIES
An "Isolated" criteria could be very simple. Innogames likely prunes the Notification Logs every week, by date, and if they then count the remaining (recent) Notifications (Visits + Trades) that are NOT from the player's own Fellowship, they'll have a pretty solid Isolation Metric.

They could then sort the consequent list by the Isolation Metric (few to many Neighborhood Notifications). They'd also need to ensure that the City Type (which is determined by the Relic Tile that's immediately above the city) would be easy to identify.
  • When there is no active Tournament (around Sunday midnight in Germany), start down the Isolated City list.
  • Find the Inactive City nearest the center of the World Map, that's of the same type.
    • If it's an Autodelete City, replace it and leave a Goldmine
    • If it's a Swappable City, do so.
Does this model match what you're seeing?
 
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StarLoad

Well-Known Member
A CITY MOVE ALGORITHM REVIEW

...

They could then sort the consequent list by the Isolation Metric (few to many Neighborhood Notifications). They'd also need to ensure that the City Type (which is determined by the Relic Tile that's immediately above the city) would be easy to identify.
  • When there is no active Tournament (around Sunday midnight in Germany), start down the Isolated City list.
  • Find the Inactive City nearest the center of the World Map, that's of the same type.
    • If it's an Autodelete City, replace it and leave a Goldmine
    • If it's a Swappable City, do so.
Does this model match what you're seeing?
So now you have moved on to telling INNO how to do city moves or guessing how they do it? SMH

Ed
 

Katwick

Cartographer
So now you have moved on .....
Nope, I've been right here for seven plus years. Haven't you figured out that it all hangs together?

If you don't enjoy sorting out the underpinnings of the game, then focus on what you do enjoy.
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
I still have folks in my FS who are either on edge with one side all coins or surrounded by ridiculous number of coins. These are cities who play almost daily, participate in the spire & tournament every week, are moving forward in chapters and buy diamonds from time to time. Of course I prop up their trades but it still seems a bit unfair that they almost always have no available trades except for some uneven trades. I get that in their neighborhood trades posted are probably going fast due to the drought if it is something others may also need. It is still very disheartening for them.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Okay, I'll bite. I'd rather have any 24 active trading partners from any source of 24 or more. It's not the partners you have but the level of activity they have. If your fs is names "onceaday" you get, at max, 24 possible trades from them each day. On the other hand, if you you have 12 "twice or more a day" neighborhood players you ge the same effect...providing they are actively trading whenever they come on line (true for both sets of players). So it's really dependent on a lot more variables than how many partners you have or from which source.

Now I use pop spells regularly. I have 2 Magic Workshops and with those and the cultural boosts (250 to 300% usually), I have plenty of supplies for my Chapter 18 city. I also have 8 Magic Residences and an over-supply of coins (and have to go to the wholesaler all the time). To get to that cultural boost percentage I have to use about 15 EE spells a day, a difficult thing to maintain (and I sometimes don't and have to take a couple weeks to rebuild my EE supply). In any case, if I could produce a few more EE spells I could see how you could run your city on a lot fewer workshops and residences (magic or otherwise) than the average player seems to have at the higher chapters. All it takes is the development of consistent visitation and a source of the spells...which generally means more than once a day level of play.

So, the OP was about using an understanding of the map to find the active and usable players in your discovered area (and, if necessary to grow that area to include those players who can be useful to you). It's not a bad idea but seems like a lot more work than necessary. On the other hand, I do like the idea of contacting those players in your neighborhood who have what you need (and you have what they need) and making arrangements for regular trades. I've done this before to get goods our fellowship was low in, and it works until you no longer need those goods due to fs membership changes or adjustments.

AJ
 

Katwick

Cartographer
I still have folks in my FS who are either on edge with one side all coins or surrounded by ridiculous number of coins. ..... still very disheartening for them.
You should whisper in Helya's ear. The devs can work some manual magic when the move algorithm isn't getting the job done, and it's exactly these kinds of examples that they need to tune their parameters.
 

Katwick

Cartographer
Hopefully we'll be able to work both ends against the middle:
  • Bias our activities a bit to find the move side of the algotithm
  • Get a few hints from the Devs so that we can adjust our activities accordingly
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
We do not have a manual movement option enabled at this time. Players on the edge are currently stuck. Most have already submitted a ticket.

I already told them that I thought that ship had already sailed. It isn’t a big problem as long as I can help make up for the trade problem. Just hoping they get moved soon with automatic moves since I’m hearing we are getting closer to new chapter. Then I will need to put away some of my over producing factories.
 
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