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    Your Elvenar Team

A (different) 5-day building for LM&HM

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Summary: New expiring 2x2 buildings that grant an initiative buff to Light melee or Heavy melee units (2 buildings)

Motive: Right now, ranged units have a huge advantage over melee due to almost always getting in 1 or 2 hits before contact. This is further exacerbated due to the lack of anything equivalent to the MMM and ELR buildings. Naturally, this leads to fewer strategic options and also devalues the Heroes Forge and Victory Springs as wonders. A secondary consideration is that several advanced players seem to have little to no interest in the daily offerings of events and this would provide an interesting alternative to the default of troop instants.

Details: Rather than a simple +50% damage like the Mages and Archers get, this building would provide an initiative buff to the units. At +5 for light melee and +10 for Heavy Melee, this would greatly reduce how often they get hit twice before making contact. Stacking 2 of these buildings could even allow dogs to hit first for a change before they themselves get hit.
Also, this should not be added to crafting but rather to events as a daily prize so as not to dilute the crafting pool, and to also give advanced players a desirable option in events that isn't permanent.

Balance:
With events giving ~16 daily prizes every ~2 months a player could sustainably use one of each building (or stack 2 of one type) each tournament if they forgo ALL other daily offerings from events. This seems like a reasonable sacrifice to me, but I'd like more feedback.
The +5 for LM could need a tweak but I think 5 works as it makes most LM units go before mages but after archers.
The +10 for HM is also open but it does hit a sweet spot where it makes HM faster than LM+HR but keeps them slower than Mages and LR.

Downsides: there is the odd encounter where even with melee you don't actually want to go first so some auto fights will actually have worse results with this buff, but the (vast?) majority of the time that won't be the case. And of course, there's the ever-present developer time involved. I'll also update the downsides based on
feedback.

Bonus: What could we name these two buildings?
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
While I like the idea of an initiative boost. I've noticed quite a few people don't even know there is an initiative attribute to the troops, so won't understand how this can help.

However, with the LM and HM I don't think it will make much difference. Except for the dog, moving 1st isn't going to allow your LM or HM attack the enemy on its 1st move. What it will do is move them off the arena wall putting them closer to the enemy. This would allow their dogs to get both behind and in front of your troops. Also, they might not have to even move their LR, or mages to attack 1st. Also their Ancient Orc, Steinling, and Orc Deserter could now attack you on their 1st move. It would also increase the chances of their Enchantress being able to attack on its 1st move. About all I see is you can close on their cannoneers a turn quicker and they have one fewer retreat and attack moves.

I like the idea of them being event daily prizes, like the 5-day buildings were when introduced, but I doubt they would be left as event prizes for long. Sadly, temporary buildings seem to have pretty much left the events.

It may turn out I'm wrong with these 1st thoughts and hearing from others or thinking a bit more may change my mind. It's still open about this.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
a building that increased movement speed for certain troops would be a cool alternitive to this.
Do you mean movement range? Like the HM would move 4 instead of 2 per turn? That may be harder to implement. Changing the initiative doesn't have to require a code change. Just have them move earlier. If they move farther on a turn, the tactics would have to change somewhat. Hopefully they would make our troops smarter and not make any changes to theirs.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Also their Ancient Orc, Steinling, and Orc Deserter could now attack you on their 1st move.
I may have underestimated how often it's actually bad to move first.
I was focused on LR, mages, frogs, and mortars being able to hit you no matter what so moving first would reduce getting hit 2x to just once.

Edit:
Thinking about this again, If it's your LM against a Steinling, either
He moves first, can't reach, then you move, can't reach, then he hits you​
vs​
You move, can't reach, then he moves and hits you.​
Either way, you're getting hit first

I autofight everything so I definitely need more people to chime in with details on what actually happened when I click "fight"
 
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ElfGunn

Well-Known Member
I may have underestimated how often it's actually bad to move first.
I was focused on LR, mages, frogs, and mortars being able to hit you no matter what so moving first would reduce getting hit 2x to just once.

Edit:
Thinking about this again, If it's your LM against a Steinling, either
He moves first, can't reach, then you move, can't reach, then he hits you​
vs​
You move, can't reach, then he moves and hits you.​
Either way, you're getting hit first

I autofight everything so I definitely need more people to chime in with details on what actually happened when I click "fight"
Heh. I autofight everything too, cuz it's the only option on the mobile app, which is what I use. I had no idea there was an initiative quality for the troops.
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
I manually fight a bunch and I'm going to have to think about this.
I rarely use LM or HM troops at all anymore. That's due to initiative + range being king as far as I'm concerned when I can control which units my troops strike. The AI is going to strike units in range with the highest initiative with some consideration for range (so my blossom might get targeted before my archer in some cases), but I haven't figured out the detailed combos for this. While not as big a consideration for LM (they'd go after LR before mages usually), the HM will go after LR, then Mages, then either LM or HR depending on their specific initiative/range. I *think* they'd deliberately move into range of those counter units before they'd target the units you want them to. With the new makeup of enemies I don't know that them having a higher initiative would make them any more useful in autofight; seems to me they'd just step up to get killed sooner.
Again, I'm going to have to think about this more... Not opposed, just unsure.
 

Gath Of Baal

Well-Known Member
Terrain is a big factor when it comes to hitting first or getting hit first, there are a lot of times when your troops are trapped and having a higher initiative would help out to be able to move your slower troops first up down or even diagonally back left or back right to get out of the way of mage type units hitting you first.

The only time I even take Heavy Melee anymore is if the terrain is right to use as a blocker. Even if they went first they would still get pounded as they lumber across the screen to get into range. I also use them when I am in a hurry and auto fight a few encounters, that way I can save my good units. The only Light Melee I ever use are dogs but very rarely because they always seem to go last, If I could go first with them I would probably use them a hella lot more then i do now

I mainly use frogs, archers and mages on every fight when I manual fight. Would be nice if my frogs were first shot units :D that would be crazy scary.

So yeah I like the idea if only to have crazy scary frogs and dogs. Heavy Melee can just stay home

Edit: oh wait you didn't mention Heavy Ranged.. LMAO I got caught up and all I could see was my frogs going first haha and I was too busy doing the ferret war dance of joy to realize you didn't mention them :(

Ferris the Ferret does a Weasel War Dance - YouTube
 
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Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
The AI is going to strike units in range with the highest initiative with some consideration for range
So, would the computer (I can't call it AI), take the boosted initiative into consideration? That might actually be a good thing. If they attacked my HM who can take more hits instead of another troop, it would help them.
Terrain is a big factor when it comes to hitting first or getting hit first, there are a lot of times when your troops are trapped and having a higher initiative would help out to be able to move your slower troops first up down or even diagonally back left or back right to get out of the way of mage type units hitting you first.
The problem with getting out from behind a wall is they trip over each other. Maybe that would help, but maybe they would just trip sooner.
The only time I even take Heavy Melee anymore is if the terrain is right to use as a blocker. Even if they went first they would still get pounded as they lumber across the screen to get into range.
This has been a perfect use for them … and lumber is indeed the right word.
I was too busy doing the ferret war dance of joy to realize you didn't mention them :(
OMG! That is a great vid! But yeah, Frogs shooting 1st. Such power. Frog eats dog is already true. I'd like something for the HR too, but that's a tough one to actually end up with balance. They nerfed the acid spitting frog as soon as it came out due to its power.
 

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
I've long been wanting a building to boost Light Melee because they are so bad. I considered what bonuses the building could give; the problem with Initiative is how would it stack? After you stack two or three such buildings, the affected units' Initiative is now higher than any other unit in the game and any further buildings are a waste.

Movement range might help (as this is the primary thing that makes Cerberuses remotely viable), or maybe even just additional HP to allow them to soak up the damage before they reach their targets.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
the problem with Initiative is how would it stack? After you stack two or three such buildings, the affected units' Initiative is now higher than any other unit in the game and any further buildings are a waste.
This is intentional, as is the limited availability from events. The last thing we want to do is add another "must have" fire chicken or worse a game-breaking multiple firechicken scenario.

Depending on how this suggestion goes over with players I plan to dovetail it into a 5-day wonders suggestion where more expiring buildings are added to increase strategic options, moving away from "place the best building and use RR spells on it forever"
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Depending on how this suggestion goes over with players I plan to dovetail it into a 5-day wonders suggestion where more expiring buildings are added to increase strategic options, moving away from "place the best building and use RR spells on it forever"
I'm not at all opposed to this idea. It just doesn't seem like it will do much. So, even if it doesn't fly, go forward with other 5d expiring buildings. So many of the buildings brought out starting with the set buildings have been super powerful and having the powerful ones expire would have been a good thing. It would have not let things get so out of balance (whatever that means). @Ashrem started a thread about having some expire, which changed my thoughts on the concept, but not many people commented and it died. His was about some other buildings, but imagine the uproar if Inno changed the fire chicken to only last a year. They have gone another way which lets more people get it and now upgrade it, so pretty good. I still have the Winter Set with 4 frost trees. They are upgraded to the level when upgrades don't increase mana (92k mana each a day) which is another solution to the upgrade forever concept. @CrazyWizard has mentioned many times set buildings he has and rightly calls supersets that save a lot of space. If they became expiring, I think it would be good for the game. But again, major controversial. I know you are not talking about nerfing the existing ones, but I'm certainly curious about your ideas.
 

Gath Of Baal

Well-Known Member
I had thought of this before but never followed through with it but I think a better way of getting results out of certain troops instead of adding more buildings (which would be easier then) adding an experience system were you could add points to troop stats and tailor them to your liking. say you use Barbarians and they kill a unit you get X amount of XP for Barbarians and can use it to increase whichever Barbarian stat you wanted after X amount of XP was earned, The XP levels to increase a stat would also increase significantly after each increase in a stat. But this would be a major overhaul and most likely never implemented. I can just imagine my Trees going first and having the same move rate as dogs because I put all my XP into those 2 stats :p .. Yeah we need more variety in military buildings so I can make it happen. Would also be nice for the enemy units to have varied stats so each fight against X unit is not the same every time, this would make for some nice "Oh Crap!!" moments when you go up against something like the super trees I just mentioned. At the least it would sure make combat more unpredictable

Anyways at this point I'm just rambling and my rambles have little to do with the OP anymore
 

Gath Of Baal

Well-Known Member
After you stack two or three such buildings, the affected units' Initiative is now higher than any other unit in the game and any further buildings are a waste.

If you rolled it over and continue to stack initiative to were you are 2x faster then any other unit it would be nice if your unit got to go 2x before the enemy could move, that could make it worth stacking several of them, that would also make those heavy melees much better after stacking 5 or 6 of them

Edit: you would probably have to save up for awhile to get it to that point though if its only available from events
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
If you rolled it over and continue to stack initiative to were you are 2x faster then any other unit it would be nice if your unit got to go 2x before the enemy could move, that could make it worth stacking several of them, that would also make those heavy melees much better after stacking 5 or 6 of them

Edit: you would probably have to save up for awhile to get it to that point though if its only available from events
I thought for a moment that might be the case, but Treants have an initiative of 1 and mistwalkers don't get to shoot them 21x in a row, so it (sadly?) can't work like that. Would be fun, but anything that gives a path to invincibility is probably bad LoL
 

Henroo

Well-Known Member
Honestly I would rather have a 5 day building similar to MMM and ELR, but for heavy ranged. +50% attack bonus to all heavy ranged? Yes please!

As far as the concept of a initiative advantage for your troops, I think that might be better for a future ancient wonder, not for a 5 day limited building. Frankly, from what I have seen there has not been an ancient wonder for a few chapters in the end game phase that gives a military advantage. This would be a way to fix this.
 
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SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I think that might be better for a future ancient wonder, not for a 5 day limited building. It would be a permanent shift for you late game players instead of a temporary 5 day thing.
That's exactly what I want to avoid.
The problem late game is that you have everything and nothing new is interesting in events. When something IS interesting like an over powered evolution building or a wonder, then you add it and that's it- it stays in your city forever and you just upgrade it with RR spells, and the next event is worthless again.
The only exception is something like Goblin Gift shops where the developers offer literally the best population building ever, but they can't do that every event without constantly rebalancing the difficulty to match. (Power-creep)

Also, adding such a wonder to chapter 21 (the next unplanned chapter) is WAY too late.
Honestly I would rather have a 5 day building similar to MMM and ELR, but for heavy ranged. +50% attack bonus to all heavy ranged? Yes please!
1. Heavy ranged doesn't need such a boost, ranged is already much better than melee.
2. +50% damage doesn't help if you're dead before you get to hit the enemy.
 

Henroo

Well-Known Member
The problem late game is that you have everything and nothing new is interesting in events. When something IS interesting like an over powered evolution building or a wonder, then you add it and that's it- it stays in your city forever and you just upgrade it with RR spells, and the next event is worthless again.
But this is a city building game. Aren't we *SUPPOSED* to build the best, most powerful, most interesting buildings? And then spend effort to keep them up to date? But also, I think we are talking about apples and oranges in this case. My original suggestion was for a new type of ancient wonder. Your response is talking about event buildings. They are not the same.
 
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