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    Your Elvenar Team

Accept a member who posts Zero-star trade offers

Pookatan

New Member
I don't understand what's wrong with zero-star trades.
I use them to place goods in 'savings' so they are available when required.
 

Pookatan

New Member
Because I use up the goods in encounters and upgrades. It's too hard to do the math in my head to know how much I have to not-spend in order to have enough for the Tech.
 

Laochra

Well-Known Member
Zero-star trades are unfair (selfish) trades because they only benefit you & hurt the other person. Anyone who would take the trades loses on the deal & you get an unfair advantage because you're getting more than what the deal is actually worth. In RL, if you did a job for someone, would you expect them to pay what the job was worth, or would you accept a smaller payment because they wanted to save money on the job? Same concept here in the game. No one will take zero star trades because they lose more in the deal. The trader makes it easy for you to see if you are posting a fair trade or not. That is why the game rules require fair trades. If someone is in dire straits, sometimes their FS will help them out with one-time zero trades-but that is by their offer only. No FS will permit a member to take advantage of their mates like that.
Example: Would you take my trade if I was asking for 5K Steel & only offering 500 Marble? No, because that would significantly affect your steel inventory & you would not be getting an equal quantity of marble in the exchange (5K Steel = 5K Marble). I would never dream of posting this trade because it would just be wrong to do. Unfair trades are a hallmark rule for fellowships & a trade like this could cost a player their spot in a FS.
You could attain more if you placed fair trades because they have a much higher chance of being accepted, especially if you are new & your trades are small. In my Trader, if I see small, fair trades, I usually take them all, because I realize that it may be a new player who is just starting out & trying to build up their inventory. When you become more advanced, you will start to understand the attraction for 3-star trades.
Q: What would benefit your city the most: Having 10 zero-star trades sitting in the trader for a week or posting 10 (2 star) trades & having them accepted the same day? The Trader permits you to have up to 7 pages of trades posted. You could fill it full of 2 star trades today, your city would see more benefit from them because they would be taken fast enough that you could repost those same trades tomorrow. Whereas your zero-star trades may sit forever & do your city no good.
 

BQwer

Active Member
@Laochra the OP clearly says that they uses them as a type of storage NOT for actual trades, did you even read the 2 short sentences? This person has found away to store goods and isn't exploiting anyone.
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
Just a couple of points here, 1 the OP did ask what is wrong with 0* trades, so Laochra did address that question, and 2 when I see parasitic trades, as all have noted for sentient goods I mentally note the trader and will never take trades from them no matter what. This action would also lead me to avoid a player from an FS.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Most zero star traders, in my humble opinion, hope for misclicks. In other words, they hope to cheat others who are distracted, whose game screen bumps, who is clicking on another trade and double clicks by accident, etc. We've all had misclicks at one time or another, and we all get angry about it, at least momentarily. Frankly, I would not want to gain a reputation as someone people detest. There are several people in my fellowship who will not trade with those players EVEN when they post fair trades. They don't want to have anything to do with them. So this will come back to bite you in the long run, if you find later that you can't get the things you desperately need, even if you post fair trades.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Zero-star trades are unfair (selfish) trades because they only benefit you & hurt the other person.

Same concept here in the game. No one will take zero star trades because they lose more in the deal. The trader makes it easy for you to see if you are posting a fair trade or not. That is why the game rules require fair trades. If someone is in dire straits, sometimes their FS will help them out with one-time zero trades-but that is by their offer only. No FS will permit a member to take advantage of their mates like that.

1) Upon what moral principle taking an "unfair" trade make it "unfair" if the one taking the trade is of the opinion that it meets their needs? Kantian moral imperative notes that if both sides of a trade are in agreement about it's fairness and are freely trading, the trade is moral. Upon what moral grounds can you can step in and declare it to be otherwise?

2) The value of the thing is in the one valuing. Any statements of value by "authorities" use limited measures and do not account for all the inputs to value. For instance, I value a trade at X today, but tomorrow I may need the goods more and thus might value it at X+1. My evaluation of my needs cannot possibly be accounted for by any external measure of relative value, and thus, to insist I follow an imprecise and incomplete measure of the value of a thing, is damaging to my ability to value the trade for myself. Ultimately the traders will value the trade as they see fit, and generally will do so in spite of anyone's objections.

3) The game does not require "fair" trades, though the players sometimes do. There is a range of trades allowed, including the "unfair" one and no star ones. It does limit the range of values by first putting a maximum in the relationship between the goods (you can't go over the maximum), and second, by putting a practical floor on the value of goods in the wholesaler. But these have the effect of keeping the markets from wide swings rather than anything else. To some degree this regulation is needed to protect small players from being unable to get goods needed as the price fluctuations may take them out of the range those players can achieve. This is a macroeconimic decision by the developers, in essence. It should not be used to govern the specific transactions, even if the devs have attempted to do so.

4) The developers do declare things to be "fair" and not. This is unfortunate as it makes a market driven measure into a moral one. If I put up a 2 star trade the game tells you I am a fair trader. If I put up a one star or no star one, the games implies I am morally suspect. But it still allows it. The purpose of the star system is, I believe, to help players evaluate the trade in terms of the range of valuations allowed. It reduces the need to really contemplate what things are worth, and therefore makes the game easier, especially on new players. That is probably a good thing. But to imply trades of 2 star are fair, and thus to imply the trader is a "fair" trader (with the moral implications) is faulty at best and harmful in other ways.

Everything you say is based upon a measure of "fairness" imposed on the game by describing trades as such if they are at a ratio of exchange the developers envisioned as "fair." Sadly, those standards do not account for the wide variance in how the traders view the trade. The purposes of postings -- the reasons the person puts their trade up the way they do -- account for the value of the trade and unfortunately the devs measures do not include much of what makes a trade valuable or not to the traders. Timing, production levels, spending needs, and a whole long list of other things, influence the measure of value, and the game does not have the ability to measure those things. The market in this game, because it is humans who are engaged in it, dynamically responds to the wide range of reasons to post or accept a posted trade. And that means some posted trades will look "unfair" to you that look perfectly fair to me.

Finally, I once read and understood Soggyshorts to have noted that if everybody were to stick to the way the the devs structured the market things would work themselves out. I'm not sure of his conclusion, but he's probably right in one way. If everyone were to value each tier as 1:1 within that tier and there were no "cross-tier" trades, it would probably be fine that we have a "trillion" more scrolls sitting around than we need. People with scrolls would just slow down in their production and the imbalance would eventually work itself out. But people don't play that way. They often ignore the "rules" and post trades others feel are "unfair." And, since, such "rules" lack a method of enforcement outside of sending your member packing, they aren't going to be obeyed by everyone any time soon. As they say in legal circles, a law without teeth might as well not be on the books.

AJ
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
@Laochra the OP clearly says that they uses them as a type of storage NOT for actual trades, did you even read the 2 short sentences? This person has found away to store goods and isn't exploiting anyone.
We all read that, but a few of us, or maybe just one of us, don't believe that there has never been a single time when she saw the trade taken (probably by mistake) and didn't jump for joy. We don't believe that she has absolutely no intention of anyone accidentally clicking her trade. We believe that the storage excuse is flimsy, because there is unlimited storage and yes, we also read the excuse about not being able to do the math. I think her math skills are not lacking one tiny bit. It's something else that's lacking ... a sense of fairness to other players. But her "reasons" at least put a good face on it, which is what she's trying to do and hoping others will justify her stance. Frankly, I don't think too highly of that attitude. But even so, if she's new, she can learn and grow and put this behind her, if she's willing to do that. I avoid one star players for a long time ... but if they become 2 star players and do that consistently for months, I forgive and forget, and will always help them out in the future. Pookatan may become an asset to the game yet, if those in this forum can steer her right instead of reinforcing bad behavior. Just my humble opinion.
 

StrongJean

Active Member
Ok, I am all for fair trades however, a lot of player put up trades that are so high such as 25000 or more and players with lower inventories cannot keep up with these high trades, I do not believe that this is fair either. My boosted goods I trade 2000 or 3000 at a time and quite a bit of them so that whoever needs certain goods that I offer has a chance to take whatever they need. Just my two cents :)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Ok, I am all for fair trades however, a lot of player put up trades that are so high such as 25000 or more and players with lower inventories cannot keep up with these high trades, I do not believe that this is fair either. My boosted goods I trade 2000 or 3000 at a time and quite a bit of them so that whoever needs certain goods that I offer has a chance to take whatever they need. Just my two cents :)
The key to successful trading for small players is to post trades, not look for trades they can take.
Just this morning I gobbled up every trade in my ~200 player area around me that was under 50K and posted 4 trades each asking for 500,000 planks in change for my 500,000 steel.
If you are in my area you won't be able to take my trades for probably at least a year, but if you post trades I'll take them every day.

I would post little 2K trades for you but
1. I can't possibly know what you need
2. I can't stop anyone from taking trades meant for you
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
We all read that, but a few of us, or maybe just one of us, don't believe that there has never been a single time when she saw the trade taken (probably by mistake) and didn't jump for joy. We don't believe that she has absolutely no intention of anyone accidentally clicking her trade. We believe that the storage excuse is flimsy, because there is unlimited storage and yes, we also read the excuse about not being able to do the math. I think her math skills are not lacking one tiny bit. It's something else that's lacking ... a sense of fairness to other players. But her "reasons" at least put a good face on it, which is what she's trying to do and hoping others will justify her stance. Frankly, I don't think too highly of that attitude. But even so, if she's new, she can learn and grow and put this behind her, if she's willing to do that. I avoid one star players for a long time ... but if they become 2 star players and do that consistently for months, I forgive and forget, and will always help them out in the future. Pookatan may become an asset to the game yet, if those in this forum can steer her right instead of reinforcing bad behavior. Just my humble opinion.

@Soggyshort Maybe the reason the topic keeps coming up is because it is a fundamental problem with how people are playing the game -- meaning there is a tension between what one side is saying is "fair" and what is actually perceived as 'fair.'

Now for an answer to the post above. Who is the proverbial "we?" indicated. And how is that proverbial "we" able to climb into the players mind and determine his/her motives? I'm always suspicious of claims to have god-like abilities to read others motives when they have said just the opposite. I don't mean that you are wrong, but that, perhaps, to avoid such moral judgements one ought to avoid, well, judging without presenting the basis of that judgement. What is your evidence for saying the posters motives are not what they claim? You point to your opinion that people do post "bad" trades in hopes that the other person just makes a mistake, but what's your documentation for that? Isn't it also a guess as to their motives?

So let's just give the poster the benefit of the doubt, as I'm sure you'd like if you were to say something that could be interpreted in a bad light.

AJ
 

Gladiola

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz Your argument that this topic keeps coming up because it is a problem with a way many people play the game would hold more water if it were not the same person bringing it up all the time.

@Pookatan People have discussed at length previously why they don't view this method of "storage" as being a practice that is friendly to other players. Until you have something new to ask, others probably won't have any new answers.
 

StrongJean

Active Member
1) Upon what moral principle taking an "unfair" trade make it "unfair" if the one taking the trade is of the opinion that it meets their needs? Kantian moral imperative notes that if both sides of a trade are in agreement about it's fairness and are freely trading, the trade is moral. Upon what moral grounds can you can step in and declare it to be otherwise?

2) The value of the thing is in the one valuing. Any statements of value by "authorities" use limited measures and do not account for all the inputs to value. For instance, I value a trade at X today, but tomorrow I may need the goods more and thus might value it at X+1. My evaluation of my needs cannot possibly be accounted for by any external measure of relative value, and thus, to insist I follow an imprecise and incomplete measure of the value of a thing, is damaging to my ability to value the trade for myself. Ultimately the traders will value the trade as they see fit, and generally will do so in spite of anyone's objections.

3) The game does not require "fair" trades, though the players sometimes do. There is a range of trades allowed, including the "unfair" one and no star ones. It does limit the range of values by first putting a maximum in the relationship between the goods (you can't go over the maximum), and second, by putting a practical floor on the value of goods in the wholesaler. But these have the effect of keeping the markets from wide swings rather than anything else. To some degree this regulation is needed to protect small players from being unable to get goods needed as the price fluctuations may take them out of the range those players can achieve. This is a macroeconimic decision by the developers, in essence. It should not be used to govern the specific transactions, even if the devs have attempted to do so.

4) The developers do declare things to be "fair" and not. This is unfortunate as it makes a market driven measure into a moral one. If I put up a 2 star trade the game tells you I am a fair trader. If I put up a one star or no star one, the games implies I am morally suspect. But it still allows it. The purpose of the star system is, I believe, to help players evaluate the trade in terms of the range of valuations allowed. It reduces the need to really contemplate what things are worth, and therefore makes the game easier, especially on new players. That is probably a good thing. But to imply trades of 2 star are fair, and thus to imply the trader is a "fair" trader (with the moral implications) is faulty at best and harmful in other ways.

Everything you say is based upon a measure of "fairness" imposed on the game by describing trades as such if they are at a ratio of exchange the developers envisioned as "fair." Sadly, those standards do not account for the wide variance in how the traders view the trade. The purposes of postings -- the reasons the person puts their trade up the way they do -- account for the value of the trade and unfortunately the devs measures do not include much of what makes a trade valuable or not to the traders. Timing, production levels, spending needs, and a whole long list of other things, influence the measure of value, and the game does not have the ability to measure those things. The market in this game, because it is humans who are engaged in it, dynamically responds to the wide range of reasons to post or accept a posted trade. And that means some posted trades will look "unfair" to you that look perfectly fair to me.

Finally, I once read and understood Soggyshorts to have noted that if everybody were to stick to the way the the devs structured the market things would work themselves out. I'm not sure of his conclusion, but he's probably right in one way. If everyone were to value each tier as 1:1 within that tier and there were no "cross-tier" trades, it would probably be fine that we have a "trillion" more scrolls sitting around than we need. People with scrolls would just slow down in their production and the imbalance would eventually work itself out. But people don't play that way. They often ignore the "rules" and post trades others feel are "unfair." And, since, such "rules" lack a method of enforcement outside of sending your member packing, they aren't going to be obeyed by everyone any time soon. As they say in legal circles, a law without teeth might as well not be on the books.

AJ

You know, I must say you wrote quite a long explanation what you perceive as fair or not. Members who are just starting the game have to a lot to learn and also need help. It all depends how your FS treats you at that time when you need help with goods. I personally cannot complain about in all three of my cities everyone was helping me with zero, and uneven trades. Now, since I am moving forward, I am happy to help others that just starting to play. I am not super strong on goods but I do help whenever I can so, in my humble opinion, it depends on the members of your FS and on the perception that different people have. Everyone has an opinion and that is our right however, that is the reason I am normally do not participate in certain forum discussions, Happy Eastern :)
 

StrongJean

Active Member
The key to successful trading for small players is to post trades, not look for trades they can take.
Just this morning I gobbled up every trade in my ~200 player area around me that was under 50K and posted 4 trades each asking for 500,000 planks in change for my 500,000 steel.
If you are in my area you won't be able to take my trades for probably at least a year, but if you post trades I'll take them every day.

I would post little 2K trades for you but
1. I can't possibly know what you need
2. I can't stop anyone from taking trades meant for you

That is true however, whoever took them may needed them?
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
@StrongJean Thanks for the calm and thoughtful reply. I do understand that people have opinions and often express them. But there are opinions that are well thought out and calmly defended, and then there are opinions we sometimes grab at the moment and find ourselves floundering when we discover others have put more time, thought, and understanding into their analysis than we have ours. In problem solving it's one of the first things you work at doing to avoid backing yourself into a corner....you do your analysis before you make your comittment to a position. Sadly, if you've taken a public stance before really hearing both sides of the issue, you have a fifty-fifty chance of being wrong. You may still have your opinion, but it could be wrong.

On the other hand,, avoiding discussions may not be the best way forward for any group. The way forward is usually when the parties calm down, look at what was said, throw out that which was off topic -- usually the personal attacks and side issues -- and are willing to admit that maybe they made some mistakes? Then own up to them and apologize. In the long run it takes a lot more commitment to a group to go through a heated discussion than to simply walk away slamming the door behind you.

Thanks, again, for the calm response.

AJ
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
@ajqtrz Your argument that this topic keeps coming up because it is a problem with a way many people play the game would hold more water if it were not the same person bringing it up all the time.

@Pookatan People have discussed at length previously why they don't view this method of "storage" as being a practice that is friendly to other players. Until you have something new to ask, others probably won't have any new answers.

Yeah, but once you bring something up and people react with some rather heated and off topic attacks you tend to shut up. Not many have the stomach to respond to personal attacks with a bit of grace....albeit probably not enough grace, but at least a bit. So they exit the conversation. I, stay because it's important to me.

It's true that people have discussed this subject before, but as a long time forum user I don't remember it. Thus, "it [perhaps] bears repeating?" And to ask somebody to remember all the possible points made on a subject and to not repeat any of them is, perhaps, more than should be expected? Yes, they could scan through the hundreds of posts or do a search for key terms, etc.... Then they could survey in those posts, going back six years, all the reasons for their position and those against it, but do you really think a person should have to do that?

I would suggest though, that if you think they should, perhaps you should have included some links to save us all time in searching for the relevant posts. That would be a nice gesture and help us shorten the "repetition" cycle, right? So if you know where the threads are that discuss the specific question of using the trader to store (so you reserve) your goods, you could point us to the right direction? I'm sure it would be helpful.

Thanks!

AJ
 
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