Advising Newbies to be Careful with Expansions

[Gkyr]

City expansions are the strongest determinant on how costly it is/will be to fight or negotiate your way up the Spire or through the rounds of the Tournaments. How far you have progressed in the game chapters is also a determinant of costliness but, for comparison, progressing all the way through Elvenar chapter 16 will increase your Spire and Tourney costs less than adding 7 tech or province earned expansions to your city. Expansions do not affect the cost of province (map) encounters; each province on the map is the same experience for all players, unless overscouted.

If you are a showcase city builder and you want plenty of room and you want to build one of everything (and two or more of some things) then this caveat is not for you.

But if you aspire to be a Gold Spire player, join a competitive fellowship or max out a Tourney, then adding too many expansions too early may frustrate your plans.

Case in point: there was a recent post by a gamer who was used to negotiating their way up the Spire. In the later stages of the game Spire negotiations become too expensive, especially when the resources must also be used for building, upgrades and tech advancement. Everyone, with a few possible exceptions, turns to fighting their way up the Spire. The poster is not able to survive multiple waves of Spire battles. Moreover, they play on Mobile and therefore cannot manual fight.

There are post facto fixes for this that are discussed on other threads but this thread is meant to warn you against setting yourself up for this difficulty by keeping your expansions lean and mean. I could not see the poster's city since we are on different servers, but elvenstats.com could give me an outline of their space use, with my own city as a comparison. Both the poster and I are in Chapter 16; while they cannot survive Spire level 2, I can shinny up to the top as fast or slow as I want to.

There are two broad-outline differences between their city and mine. Most tellingly, they have 120 expansions while I have 103. I have 85% of their expansions and my cost determiner, based on the City Advancement Level (CAL) (google it) is 80% of theirs. This ignores the fact that difficulty is also based on number of Ancient Wonder upgrades but each upgrade increases Cal only by .003. Their AW buildings cover 301 tiles while mine cover 227. While it is impossible to infer any upgrade meaning from that, it is more likely that they have invested in resource-augmenting AWs, which is what their negotiation approach to the Spire would imply and then switched to military AWs as they tried to fight more.

Building both styles of play into AWs requires more expansions and, once you place an expansion, you cannot remove it; you are stuck with it.

The advice you are welcome to take away from this post is to build toward a goal. Either a beautiful city goal with expansions being no problem, a military city goal with lean and men expansions or a resource-intensive city, also with limited expansions. Then there is ultra-casual gaming where none of this matters. Once your military or resource city has matured buildings (AWs, resource or military producing/conserving cities and goal-focused special event buildings) you will have the latitude to expand into the other goals of city-building. That is what the top 50-200 cities on each server have done. But trying to establish a multi-function city early on is a frustrating enterprise.

 

[Deborah M]

#2 on Elcy here and I don‘t know where you got the idea top players did this. I have played with many of the top ranked players for several years. I don’t know anybody who held back on expansions ever. Not all bought all of the premium expansions but many have bought them all along. Honestly I think advice to not place expansions is a bunch of stuff I won’t say. If cities are built and progressed to meet the always evolving needs then it really is not a problem and the game is much more enjoyable the more space you have to make it your own.

 

[Ashrem]

I think the advice to have a focus for your city is good, but expansions can be geared toward any focus. How you use them is probably important, I don't think that not using them is particularly useful general advice. A specific discussion on how to make the most, militarily, of a spartan city with few expansions might be useful.

 

[crackie]

City expansions are the strongest determinant on how costly it is/will be to fight or negotiate your way up the Spire or through the rounds of the Tournaments.

I would argue that for most people, it's the number of mandatory techs unlocked that is the strongest determinant because that shows up in the formula as an exponent, which by its mathematical nature means the rise is steeper and quicker than a linear progression. However, you are using an example in which 2 cities might be at the same point in tech, which artificially eliminates the effects of tech in the discussion, leaving you with boost %, wonder levels, and expansions left to choose from. As boosts for most people are maxed out and therefore a constant, that further leaves you only wonders and plots. It's true that wonder levels affects you the least out of all the variables, so you end up with plots as the winner, but for this particular example.

Another thing with plots vs techs is your extra space can always be used to offset the increased costs by producing more goods, armories, wonders, etc., like @Ashrem hinted at. That is not always the case with techs. Unless they're techs for building upgrades, you have to just eat those increased costs from techs sometimes if they're for settlement or culture stuff for example. Also, the formula distinguishes between premium plots versus regular plots. Premium plots affects you significantly less than placing a regular plot. There are 2 tiny diamond farmer cities in my FS. One has 7 plots and the other has 9 plots. We analyzed their cities in the MinMax spreadsheet and the person with 9 plots actually has a smaller hit from plots despite being the bigger city because she only placed premium expansions whereas the person with 7 only used free expansions. Therefore, it's not just the total number of expansions at play. What type of expansions matter too.

The more common scenario I've observed is people teching too fast without building the foundation to support that increased cost and then they reach the point where they can't make enough troops or goods to do much in Spire or tourney.

 

[Gkyr]

I would argue that for most people, it's the number of mandatory techs unlocked that is the strongest determinant because that shows up in the formula as an exponent, which by its mathematical nature means the rise is steeper and quicker than a linear progression.

[My text]: MinMaxGame introduces a table at the end of the web page that you cited showing that one only has a base mandatory tech magnitude of about 6.3 added to the CAL at the time one completes Ch. 16 (i.e., enters Ch. 17):

[text from reference]: You can use the table below to get base M value for your chapter, and then add manually counted number of unlocked mandatory tech items from your current one:

City Advancement Level Model – Base M Values per Chapter
reproduced from https://minmaxgame.com/city-advancement-level-model-2020/
[My text continues]: This is less than the 7 non-premium expansions that I gave as a comparison.

Therefore, it's not just the total number of expansions at play. What type of expansions matter too.

We are in agreement on this. I had to draw the didactic line somewhere; my post was long enough. It was a case-in-point, not a how-to-do-it.

I think the advice to have a focus for your city is good, but expansions can be geared toward any focus. How you use them is probably important, I don't think that not using them is particularly useful general advice. A specific discussion on how to make the most, militarily, of a spartan city with few expansions might be useful.

We are in agreement on this. I never said don't use expansions. My last paragraph makes this clear: work toward a goal (unless this is not why one is gaming). As I said above, this was a cautionary tale and was never meant to be an instructable; you all would agree there are too many styles of gaming for a one-size-fits-all.

#2 on Elcy here and I don‘t know where you got the idea top players did this. I have played with many of the top ranked players for several years. I don’t know anybody who held back on expansions ever. Not all bought all of the premium expansions but many have bought them all along. Honestly I think advice to not place expansions is a bunch of stuff I won’t say. If cities are built and progressed to meet the always evolving needs then it really is not a problem and the game is much more enjoyable the more space you have to make it your own.

I never said don't use expansions. I said don't overuse expansions because they come with a cost. I meant to say, use them strategically and I think that message is clearly present in my post, along with allowances to not use them strategically, if one wishes.

There are many legitimate styles of game in Elvenar but there are practices that are counterproductive and should be avoided.

Honestly, if I had said, "don't overscout the map because it gets you into a bind", how many players would there be who would reply to me, "why are you telling us not to scout?!!?"

Perhaps this is more subtle but I thought not. There was a player who ran their Spire costs up and got themselves into a bind. This does not happen to everyone but I have seen it happen before. A subtle difference in game play does not mean an ineffective difference in game play.

 

[Deborah M]

Once your military or resource city has matured buildings (AWs, resource or military producing/conserving cities and goal-focused special event buildings) you will have the latitude to expand into the other goals of city-building. That is what the top 50-200 cities on each server have done.

I am saying that this is not true. The long term top ranked players that I have played the game with for several years couldn’t wait for new expansions so that they could work to BALANCE their cities while adjusting as they went. That includes goods, supplies, military, AWs, event buildings, etc. In my opinion to try to limit a city to just one focus for any length of time sounds really boring. I would feel sorry for a new player who is told to only focus on one aspect of the game and not expand early on and would expect them to leave.

 

[Gkyr]

I should have said, on my server have done. I can only talk local. Talking to other top players through Beta has not been as extensive. I am not surprised that your experiences are different than mine. I apologize for introducing a breadth that I did not have. I have not been on the FW or E servers.

 

[Redqueen1]

I would argue that for most people, it's the number of mandatory techs unlocked that is the strongest determinant because that shows up in the formula as an exponent, which by its mathematical nature means the rise is steeper and quicker than a linear progression. However, you are using an example in which 2 cities might be at the same point in tech, which artificially eliminates the effects of tech in the discussion, leaving you with boost %, wonder levels, and expansions left to choose from. As boosts for most people are maxed out and therefore a constant, that further leaves you only wonders and plots. It's true that wonder levels affects you the least out of all the variables, so you end up with plots as the winner, but for this particular example.

Another thing with plots vs techs is your extra space can always be used to offset the increased costs by producing more goods, armories, wonders, etc., like @Ashrem hinted at. That is not always the case with techs. Unless they're techs for building upgrades, you have to just eat those increased costs from techs sometimes if they're for settlement or culture stuff for example. Also, the formula distinguishes between premium plots versus regular plots. Premium plots affects you significantly less than placing a regular plot. There are 2 tiny diamond farmer cities in my FS. One has 7 plots and the other has 9 plots. We analyzed their cities in the MinMax spreadsheet and the person with 9 plots actually has a smaller hit from plots despite being the bigger city because she only placed premium expansions whereas the person with 7 only used free expansions. Therefore, it's not just the total number of expansions at play. What type of expansions matter too.

The more common scenario I've observed is people teching too fast without building the foundation to support that increased cost and then they reach the point where they can't make enough troops or goods to do much in Spire or tourney.

So I am decently new. . . So when you mention "teaching too fast" (something I may have done) do you mean moving through the chapters too fast? Or that your trying to level all of your buildings too fast? Sorry if this isn't the right forum for this just I do feel like I'm hitting that wall where I can't get my building where I want them because of lack of population even though all of my residents are maxed and I keep adding them.

 

[Maeryn]

So I am decently new. . . So when you mention "teaching too fast" (something I may have done) do you mean moving through the chapters too fast? Or that your trying to level all of your buildings too fast? Sorry if this isn't the right forum for this just I do feel like I'm hitting that wall where I can't get my building where I want them because of lack of population even though all of my residents are maxed and I keep adding them.

Seeing has you are new might I ask if you had to unlock, fellowships, fellowships adventure and tournament and such? The new tech tree goes super fast and can create a bind with all the buildings being a lower level than where you at on the tech tree.

 

[Redqueen1]

Seeing has you are new might I ask if you had to unlock, fellowships, fellowships adventure and tournament and such? The new tech tree goes super fast and can create a bind with all the buildings being a lower level than where you at on the tech tree.

Not that I remember of I have been playing sense around June. I just joined a fellowship and started playing like I do now. No wait to join in on tournament, or FA. I did have to unlock spire though.

 

[Gkyr]

@Redqueen1 I don't see a reference to teaching too fast on this thread. If you are in beginning chapters you can progress pretty fast compared to later ones. Just make sure your resources - coins, supplies (workshops), tier 1 goods, tier 2 goods, population, culture points - are in balance. If you are making all 3 tier 1 goods or tier 2 goods you need to quit that and only make boosted T1 and T2 goods. Trade in your FS for the goods that you don't make. Look a little in advance down the tech tree and anticipate what resources you will need tomorrow or next week. Don't be disheartened that province battles are costly and that troops are hard to come by - that will change, just be patient. Do what is comfortable for Spire, Tourney or FA - don't use up all your resources trying to force your way through the contests - save some resources for tomorrow.

 

[muffy.]

I wish in my early days I had been told not to over scout …. It’s costly

 

[Genefer]

Gkyr - Both cities were Chapter 16, but how many Residences, Workshops, Factories, Armories and are they upgraded to chapter?

Which Wonders and their levels?

What aspect of diplomacy was lacking - coins, supplies, standard goods, Sentient Goods, Mana, Orcs, Seeds?

What about the amount of Tournament activity? Are their average weekly tournament scores comparable? Military or Negation - Auto or Manual fighting?

What about mana/seed/orc production?


I negotiate in the Spire, but I have never experienced an extreme increase in resource cost. Though my Elf city has a far easier climb than either of my human cities - is that discrimination?

I have experienced what seems to be an out of the blue thrashing in the Tournaments in both military & negotiations - such as last week. My feel - and in no way am I claiming I am accurate, but it feels as though factors accumulate with the consequences being put in a container and are then delivered in a bulk package - out of the blue.


There are so many variables in how a player approaches the game it is impossible to validate any single factor as what creates the difference in difficulty. The difficulty as far as the game side might not be any different, my guess is the largest influence is city production & balance. It is impossible to negotiate to the top if you do not have the resources.

I have observed the players that have the hardest time are those that do not make sure their buildings are fully upgraded before they graduate to the next chapter.

 

[Gkyr]

There are so many variables in how a player approaches the game it is impossible to validate any single factor as what creates the difference in difficulty. The difficulty as far as the game side might not be any different, my guess is the largest influence is city production & balance. It is impossible to negotiate to the top if you do not have the resources.

I have observed the players that have the hardest time are those that do not make sure their buildings are fully upgraded before they graduate to the next chapter.

First, we are in total agreement about difficulty. And most players on the forum would agree with you, too.
Second, all of the factors that you mentioned were also mentioned to the player who was having difficulty, so there is general agreement there, as well.
Please be aware that there is a major difference in difficulty and cost and the perceptions of them when it comes to encounters. This has been discussed in these fora time and time again, although I am not aware of a thread devoted just to that topic. The CAL equation deals only with cost but losing or struggling to win battles due to their cost in troops can easily be perceived as due to difficulty.
Third, it is well recognized that the crystal Tournament, which concluded last week, is perceived as incrementally harder by everyone because it is the first Tourney in the series to go from one opposition type (LR in Planks) to two complementary types (ie, that cover each other's weaknesses) and that would be Mage and HR.
The thrashing that you mentioned may at first been a manifestation of battle difficulty but if you ran out of troops to throw at the next encounter and if you had concerns about resupplying for the next Tourney then that would be a manifestation of cost.

 

[Killy-]

Another thing with plots vs techs is your extra space can always be used to offset the increased costs by producing more goods, armories, wonders, etc., like @Ashrem hinted at.

Not really, there are just that many good military wonders plus the production buildings and whatever amount of armories you might need and after that, extra space becomes very inefficient. I would like to give back some of my placed expansions (but what I would love, would be a fix for this stupid calculation, so I can actually place my expansions and use the hoard of diamonds, I have for expansions, and I am already mad again, like always when I think about the stupidity of that calculation..). I know a lot of top tournament players who stopped placing expansions and stopped buiding certain wonders or even teared them down.

 

[crackie]

Not really, there are just that many good military wonders plus the production buildings and whatever amount of armories you might need and after that, extra space becomes very inefficient. I would like to give back some of my placed expansions (but what I would love, would be a fix for this stupid calculation, so I can actually place my expansions and use the hoard of diamonds, I have for expansions, and I am already mad again, like always when I think about the stupidity of that calculation..). I know a lot of top tournament players who stopped placing expansions and stopped buiding certain wonders or even teared them down.

Yeah but the time it takes your wonders to get upgraded to the level of space spacing is not the same as plonking that fresh wonder down and getting to reclaim the space saved right away. For example, I had 8 fairy level armories before I got a Bulwark down. I don’t immediately get to put 4 armories away with a level 1 Bulwark. And this was before Runes could be used for KPs so getting wonders leveled high enough was mostly the chore of KP farming tourney and took awhile to level wonders. At the time, I still needed the space to support 8 armories to help make as many troops as possible for all the time I played before I unlocked a Bulwark. Same goes for workshops and Prosperity Tower. There is also a huge jump in supply production in chap 15, which then requires less total workshops. I can’t retroactively claim I don’t need the space for 10 workshops in chapter 8 or something just because I might now only have 3 in chapter 15.

So I am decently new. . . So when you mention "teaching too fast" (something I may have done) do you mean moving through the chapters too fast? Or that your trying to level all of your buildings too fast? Sorry if this isn't the right forum for this just I do feel like I'm hitting that wall where I can't get my building where I want them because of lack of population even though all of my residents are maxed and I keep adding them.

You have to remember this game is very open ended. You are allowed to skip major components of the game if you don’t feel like playing it. Therefore, it boils down to your personal views and goals. If tourney/Spire are big on your list, then you obviously need to make significantly more troops and resources weekly to cover the high expenditure. Your city will need to be built much leaner and trimmed of excess fat than someone who just enjoys the game for the pretty artwork. Even if you like tourney/Spire, there are different levels of dipping your toes in. For some people, 4k is plenty enough for tourney and for others, they go for broke trying to be the top player on their server. The more tourney you want to do, the more you have to be mindful of growing at a sustainable pace. That’s when you could be ensnared by too many chapters too quickly without a sound infrastructure with max use of your tiles. The cost of doing business in Spire and tourney are dependent on how far along the game thinks you are using the variables mentioned earlier in the thread. Due to the open ended nature of the game too, there is also no one single solution to reach that 4k or Top of Spire goal. Some lean heavier on catering, others on fighting, and the majority probably use a mix strategy of both. For some people, their goal IS to fly to the end of the chapters as quickly as possible! Then they are obviously NOT teching too fast. You get to play the game however you like

 

[BrinDarby]

but what I would love, would be a fix for this stupid calculation

I've never understood why in a "City Builder" game,
the Devs would limit our city building. Especially when
a good revenue stream is ... selling, (gasp) more Land.

 

[Maeryn]

I've never understood why in a "City Builder" game,
the Devs would limit our city building. Especially when
a good revenue stream is ... selling, (gasp) more Land.

They will have to have an unlimited sized grid if we have unlimited expansions that will require changing the requirements necessary to run the game across all platforms.

 

[Ashrem]

Anyone who only looks at any game from solely the players' point of view will rarely understand things. Elvenar is product. It exists to make money for the people developing it. Their intended state is for players to be just frustrated enough to spend money, but not so frustrated that they leave. And they don't target every player, they target the majority. Some people will always be annoyed.

 

[crackie]

I've never understood why in a "City Builder" game,
the Devs would limit our city building. Especially when
a good revenue stream is ... selling, (gasp) more Land.

I think you're confusing a game with a simulator.