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    Your Elvenar Team

Ancient Wonders - are they worth it?

Deleted User - 1481192

Guest
Greetings!

I began playing recently, and am just now getting into Stage II of progress - I've just unlocked the Ancient Wonders, and begun using runes to unlock the various buildings.

At first glance, my initial impression of the Golden Abyss and Tome of Secrets is... underwhelming. For the amount of space they take up, they offer very, very little. Am I missing something? I don't see a reason to ever build one at the moment.

(I'll note this is as of April 25th, 2017 - I am aware they seem to have changed over time.)
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
It's going to depend on your play style and plans, and they do get substantially better over time. Currently my Golden Abyss at level 2 is providing 789 people plus 57,000 coins every three hours in about the same room as a single residence takes.

I wouldn't rush to build them until you see an advantage, but over time they will have value.
 

Deleted User - 1481192

Guest
Thank you, that gives insight.

I guess my question is this - what increases the value of an Ancient Wonder? From the descriptions in the game, it's a flat rate, but this implies that it scales up somehow - what scales a Wonder's contributions / value? Is it leveling it up, or is it impacted by other values?
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
They used to be flat, but now are a percentage of other things, like working population and how much coin your main hall can hold. That was updated last week, but without proper descriptions. the update coming this Thursday is supposed to fix that, so you will be able to see how they are calculated and have a better idea of what is happening and how they can be changed. For the Golden Abyss, it won't start to be a great building until you have at least 5-10 thousand people working in the city, which (working population) is not your available or total population, but you can see by hovering over your available population number at the top.

upload_2017-4-25_9-8-46.png


upload_2017-4-25_9-9-6.png
 

DeletedUser3297

Guest
Ancient wonders increase in value based on many factors in your city. For example:
Golden Abyss:
  • Production of Coins: a percentage of coins storage in your Main Hall.

  • Provided Population: a percentage of your working population.
What this means is the coin production increases as you upgrade your main hall.
The more you add/upgrade buildings in your city that use population, the more population the Abyss will provide.

So as you grow your city, your ancient wonders automatically grow with you and increase in value. However, when you upgrade them, their percentages increase and will offer higher bonuses :)


https://www.gamersgemsofknowledge.com/ancient-wonders-changes
 

Deleted User - 1481192

Guest
Got it - thank you, VERY much!

Given I still need to unlock some of them, I am guessing the text will be updated by the time I do so. :)
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Ancient Wonders are the GoTo spot for your Knowledge Points when your locked out of advancement in your Technology Tree.
 

DeletedUser7383

Guest
I agree with all the replies above, however, I would like to know what I can do with stored runes for my wonders. I currently have 6 for my golden abyss. Will I be able to use them at some point and if so, how?
 

turfboss

Member
Dawj - if you hover (don't click) over the AW symbol in the bar at the bottom of your screen you will see the number of rune shards you are storing up for future use - and the answer to future use is YES - when I completed the rune circle (9 shards) to be allowed to place my GA (which irrespective of the comments above - is I believe the most valuable of the AW's early in the game - since people and coins continue to increase at each level) - I too wondered about the accumulation of extra shards - as it turns out I leveled up the GA (with the help of my fellowship partners - we are Keepers of the Light) - and found when I got to level 5 that I had some 16 rune shards accumulated - hence I was able to upgrade immediately (and I do mean immediately - like in 5 minutes) to level 6 using those stored shards to fill the required rune circle for upgrade to level 6 immediately - the application of them to the rune circle did break several of them - which gave me a forged rune to place as well - but the 16 were more than enough to allow the immediate upgrade. I am now at level 6 - working on the required KP for leveling up to 7 - and storing up the GA rune shards for the required next rune circle upgrade requirement - in addition, I have stored up 17 Needles, 7 Endless Evacuation and whole bunch of other shards to be used in the future for Ancient Wonders not yet even uncovered in my game level (I am in Dwarves at the moment).
 

DeletedUser7025

Guest
They used to be flat, but now are a percentage of other things, like working population and how much coin your main hall can hold. That was updated last week, but without proper descriptions. the update coming this Thursday is supposed to fix that, so you will be able to see how they are calculated and have a better idea of what is happening and how they can be changed. For the Golden Abyss, it won't start to be a great building until you have at least 5-10 thousand people working in the city, which (working population) is not your available or total population, but you can see by hovering over your available population number at the top.

View attachment 1933

View attachment 1934
Hi; my Golden Abyss is at level 2 I have almost 20000 working pop but my abyss only provides 500 peeps. it has been 500 since I upgraded about 10000 peeps ago. is this normal or do I need to do something?
 

DeletedUser3297

Guest
Hi; my Golden Abyss is at level 2 I have almost 20000 working pop but my abyss only provides 500 peeps. it has been 500 since I upgraded about 10000 peeps ago. is this normal or do I need to do something?

That is the correct amount of pop for your level and for the amount of working pop you have.

Your level 2 Abyss provides:
money.png
Production: 0.88 % of coin capacity
population.png
Population: 2.63 % of working population
http://www.elvenarchitect.com/buildings/details/b_all_aw2/

20,000 X 0.0263 = 526 That would mean if you had exactly 20,000 working pop, the Abyss would give you 526 additional pop

To gain more pop from the Abyss, you will need to upgrade it and/or add more working pop to your city by adding/upgrading buildings that require pop :)
 

DeletedUser8337

Guest
The ones that gain you pop or neighborly help, supplies, etc. are worth the space they take up. Since the game makers changed the way the battles are handled, I don't bother with any AW that deals with troops. In fact, I sold off the one I did have for that very reason.

I currently have the Golden Abyss, Endless Excavation, Blossom Trader, Bell Spire (I play as a Human), Watchtower Ruins, Throne of High Men & Tome of Secrets.

The extra runes come in handy because once you get to level 5, you need them in order to upgrade. Certain levels require KP, then it goes to runes, then back to KP again. Luckily, I had gained enough runes on 2 of them, that I was able to upgrade those levels quickly & am back to needing KP.
 

DeletedUser6857

Guest
GA (which irrespective of the comments above - is I believe the most valuable of the AW's early in the game - since people and coins continue to increase at each level

This may have been true when you built yours but with the changes to the AW the GA is not a good use of space and resources early in the game. With the population boost being tied to working population it is not likely to give more population than residence for some time. As an example in one of my cities where I am in chapter 3 the GA would give me 60 population in a 3x3 space. A level 8 residence, the first 3x3 level of residence, is 170 population. On another city that is in chapter 4 the GA would only give me 154 population. The numbers don't lie. The GA will not provide sufficient population to warrant the space and resources until much later in the game.

There were many people that had built the GA earlier in the game, before the changes. They had also spent KP to upgrade it and lost so much population they logged in after the change to negative available population.
 

DeletedUser7370

Guest
This may have been true when you built yours but with the changes to the AW the GA is not a good use of space and resources early in the game. With the population boost being tied to working population it is not likely to give more population than residence for some time. As an example in one of my cities where I am in chapter 3 the GA would give me 60 population in a 3x3 space. A level 8 residence, the first 3x3 level of residence, is 170 population. On another city that is in chapter 4 the GA would only give me 154 population. The numbers don't lie. The GA will not provide sufficient population to warrant the space and resources until much later in the game.

There were many people that had built the GA earlier in the game, before the changes. They had also spent KP to upgrade it and lost so much population they logged in after the change to negative available population.
I built mine early in the game and upgraded it. In fact I sold 2 residences (elf 2x3 at that point) to put it in. I put it in not because of the population supplied, but because it supplied more coins than those 2 residences could at that point. When it was changed I lost about 200 population, but my city design covered that loss easily. The upside of the change was that I finally had sufficient reasons to upgrade my main hall. Prior to that change upgrading the main hall was a sink of culture and population that gave little to nothing back, and I would only undertake it if I was capping out on supplies too often. With the main hall fully upgraded my GA provides coins equal to slightly more than 6 residences (3x3 now). For my build, coins supply knowledge and knowledge equals progress.

At first glance, my initial impression of the Golden Abyss and Tome of Secrets is... underwhelming. For the amount of space they take up, they offer very, very little. Am I missing something? I don't see a reason to ever build one at the moment.
Everything in this game is a balancing and juggling act. If you are working at optimizing everything then you will juggle the entire layout of your city periodically. Balancing is always a matter of what you want to carry in excess and how much excess you want on that thing. If those excesses are all small then you must make each upgrade in a series of calculated steps with each build finishing before the next can be started, carrying larger excesses allow more builds to operate simultaneously. I suggest picking between population and culture to be your primary excess then build any wonder that adds to your chosen excess without regard to whether it is the best value per square at that time. It will become the best value per square and having it built early allows it to be upgraded more fully sooner.
 

DeletedUser6523

Guest
I have another question with regards to the AW's, is there somewhere I can find a list of which AW's open the different cliff dwellers (the extra buildings that appear to the right on the mts)
I looked in the wiki but couldn't find anything, the Crystal Lighthouse opened the first one for me, but I see more on different neighbors cities
 

DeletedUser4778

Guest

mucksterme

Oh Wise One
I have to say, my favorite AW right now is the Crystal Lighthouse.
Currently, it gives me 123 goods for every visit I make.
That means a bonus of over 4k of each of my boosted goods every day.

Oh, on the GA thing.
Before they made the change my GA was giving bonus pop of 2200.
I just recently ( last couple days) got it back to 2219.
 

DeletedUser6372

Guest
IMO, AW's are only useful to people later in the tech tree. If you aren't at least in Dwarves, you probably don't really need to worry about them, because under no circumstances should you be 'tech locked'. In fact, I would go so far as to say that until you hit Dwarves, none of your AW's are worth the space in your town because the returns are simply anemic to anything you can conventionally build.

Let us take a practical look at some comparisons that I personally experienced. As with any example of the sort, YMMV due to your personal playstyle preferences.

* Golden Abyss. This is a 3x3 building that provides a percentage of your active population. However, my level 15 buildings provided around 440 pop at a 3x3 whereas at around 11k population used the level 2 GA only provided around 300. I'd have to increase my population used by over fifty percent for it to hit an equal mark, that's not something that is likely to happen before Dwarves. And Dwarven Residences exacerbate the problem, being available immediately after the initial portal and turn into a 2x5 building which stacks more easily and has more pop. In all honesty, this is one I could probably have put off until Faeries. Perhaps even Orcs.

* Great Bell Spire/Crystal Lighthouse. This is a HUGE building that looks awesome and amazing. Free goods? Well... not free, this building is HUGE. It is a 6 x 4 building, and it produces your three boosted goods. However, it produces your boosted goods based on how many visits you can manage. So, let's say you are at the beginning of Dwarves and have 100 provinces for the chest. Roughly a third of the spaces you have unlocked are cities you can visit, so that's around 33 visits, plus let's add in 25 for a max-sized FS. Assuming no overlap, that's 58 visits each producing 30 goods each for a total of 1,740 goods total, or 580 of each type of good. Per day. I don't know about you, but for me personally, this was less than three hours worth of production. So again, it isn't really worth it at the beginning of Dwarves, and I really should have waited until Faeries or even Orcs to get this building. Having said that, I likely wouldn't have been able to clear out the footprint for this building at that point, so I guess there's that.

* Endless Excavation. Basically competes with Workshops, so let us see how well it compares. EE is a 5 x 4 and produces a percentage of your MH supplies. Assuming you have a 15 MH when you hit Dwarves, that means it will be producing 13,200 supply per 24h. However, a level 15 Workshop is a 3x4 that produces 828/h. So right off the bat, workshops will tend to produce more for less space. But then you take into consideration Workshops get a culture boost but the EE doesn't, and you start really skewing it in favor of just getting another workshop. Again, something I should probably have let slide until Faeries or Orcs or at a minimum waiting for Dwarven MH upgrades.

Mind you, it isn't that these are bad buildings. In the end-game, they can be extremely relevant, but due to their scaling stats, they are all but worthless until you are deep into guest races. Which is when you'll likely get your first experience with tech blockage.

tl;dr version: don't rush 'em. Wait until you have a reason to build them before building them. You'll likely be dealing with Faeries or possibly orcs before they become relevant.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
@ShneekeyTheLost
You missed the first available AW, the ToS. I didn't check for all of the lower chapters, but I think it out performs a workshop now.

Also, regarding the Endless Excavation, while it does take up 20 squares compared to a 12 square workshop, that workshop needs pop and culture, which adds another ~20 squares I think.

The Lighthouse/bellspire's main ability is the 30% longer lasting buffs, so if you are asking your fellows for culture buffs, you are effectively getting 31 visits instead of 24. Whether that is worth the space really depends on your situation- if those boosts take you from 100% to 125%, the extra supplies and coins is nothing to sniff at. Personally I like this one as a temp building for 1-1.5 chapters since as you said you should be saving space for dwarf buildings. Also, when you hit chapter 9 and have to build a buttload of willows you might not be asking for any culture buffs.
 
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