• Dear forum visitor,

    It looks as though you have not registered for a forum account, or are not signed in. In order to participate in current discussions or create new threads, you will need to register for a forum account by clicking on the link below.

    Click here to register for a forum account!

    If you already have a forum account, you can simply click on the 'Log in' button at the top right of your forum screen.

    Your Elvenar Team

Ancient wonders

DeletedUser21110

Guest
Another newbie question after reading Soggy's AW list: Is ToS worth it solely on the KP production alone? I am always capped on supplies *most* of the time and am just looking at the KP the ToS produces in a day. Should I invest a significant amount of Ancient Knowledge on the ToS or pass altogether if I don't need supplies? Hope this makes sense.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Another newbie question after reading Soggy's AW list: Is ToS worth it solely on the KP production alone? I am always capped on supplies *most* of the time and am just looking at the KP the ToS produces in a day. Should I invest a significant amount of Ancient Knowledge on the ToS or pass altogether if I don't need supplies? Hope this makes sense.
It really isn't possible that you "don't need supplies"
You might "not need more supplies" but everyone needs some, and if you are "capped all the time", then you have too many workshops, and should replace 2 or more with the ToS :)
 

DeletedUser21110

Guest
It really isn't possible that you "don't need supplies"
You might "not need more supplies" but everyone needs some, and if you are "capped all the time", then you have too many workshops, and should replace 2 or more with the ToS :)

I only have 6 workshops. I can farm 5/15 minute productions most days, which enable me to have a surplus that I dump at the wholesaler most of the time. I am always stuck at the time gate mechanic of the game, which is the tech tree. Granted, I am only just starting in Chapter 5 soon, but everything is upgraded. I suppose once my baby city gets into its first guest race, things might change in terms of supply demands.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
city gets into its first guest race, things might change in terms of supply demands.
^^Yep, that's when you'll hit your first major supplies crunch. So next chapter for you. I'd still recommend replacing one workshop with a ToS now. If you still get excess supplies frequently, you can just ease up on the farming for now. After you get into Dwarves, you can see if you'll be able to drop another WS or not...By then you'll also get tech locked easier and the ToS will be a good place to put kp while you wait on granite and copper...Remember, the ToS will always stay the same size, require no culture or population even when upgraded all the way. WS will always need more space, more pop, more culture to keep it upgraded and producing at the necessary levels.
 

NightshadeCS

Well-Known Member
I just have to revive this topic, as it is so helpful. :D:eek:

First of all, after reading comments in this and other threads regarding the usefulness of certain AW's, I rid myself of Enar's Embassy (which usually sat with an unclaimable broken shard) and Thrones of the High Men (I stopped caring about ranking points long ago). I still have all others that are unlocked at this point.

A member of my FS is considering removing their Heroes Forge. I notice that @SoggyShorts does not list that one specifically in his AW guide, so I assume it is just lumped into the "other military" category and is good if you do a fair amount of fighting. I am wondering if anyone has input on its usefulness. Thanks!
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
I notice that @SoggyShorts does not list that one specifically in his AW guide, so I assume it is just lumped into the "other military" category and is good if you do a fair amount of fighting. I am wondering if anyone has input on its usefulness. Thanks!
Here's the thing about the HF: Orc nests give more orcs and don't cost any KP, and you probably don't even need those if you use your armories.
If you have a fire Phoenix then your units are at 150% damage, so going up to 160% with a level 5 HF is only a 6.6% increase.
Basically, the Fire Phoenix is so significant that it made the heroes forge 33% less useful.

Strangely for non-fighters The HF is actually useful as it is better per square than an armory for making orcs since it requires zero pop.

That said, do they need the space, and what level is the wonder now? While it doesn't say so in my guide, it's almost never worth destroying a high level wonder(even the crappy ones)
 

NightshadeCS

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the quick reply, @SoggyShorts ! Said friend's Forge is only level 2 and she is in Amuni. Does not have a Fire Phoenix placed (went with the Aureate, instead :confused:). Goes about 1000 points in a tourney, 2000 on a 10 chest push week. She has two armories (which I would consider needed just for training times, yes?)
 

kctanzen

Well-Known Member
If the space / culture offset isn't an issue between Hero Forge and orc nest or two, the other advantage of Hero Forge is that it does add wonder levels to the several game mechanics that key off total wonder levels - early collection bonus of seeds is probably the most noticeable.

I also do not run feed my Fire Phoenix all through the tourney -- so any extra help I can get without additional costs for buffs is a good thing.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
Here's the thing about the HF: Orc nests give more orcs and don't cost any KP, and you probably don't even need those if you use your armories.

Sometimes it isn't about the orcs produced, but about the orcs saved. If you tend to need to produce orc warriors (especially if you are human) then the attack bonus to melee actually helps reduce the amount of orcs you need to produce.
 

DeletedUser9601

Guest
Heroes Forge is still good, depending on the KP required for investment.

I don't think comparing it to the Fire Phoenix is the right comparison, because they are not analogues. You can have a Fire Phoenix that does not impact your KP investment in military AWs. And if the analysis is "this building vs a level 10 Fire Phoenix while fed," well that reduces the value of a lot of AWs. By that math, MM is the worst AW in the game for me during Steel tournaments, because half the fights I won without attrition. That unit health boost didn't do anything!

Are there better AWs than Heroes Forge for fighting? Sure. Martial Monastery improves all units; HF only improves HM damage. But once my MM is at level 11 (and a bunch of other military AWs are level 6 or 11), I am sure as heck levelling HF up from 1.

Space is always a concern, but honestly not a big one once you're late-game. And if tournament success is a priority, I think even a level 1 HF is going to be a big help.
 

DeletedUser2870

Guest
Question remains whether the firephoenix makes the AWs outdated. I feel it is not so. The phoenix adds 50% to the damage my units do. The AWs I have add about another 15%, so my units do 165% of damage. That also means fewer losses as the opposing units will do less damage on their turn since they have taken more damage than they otherwise would have taken.
I'm all for the combo.
 

DeletedUser2207

Guest
I don't find the attack bonuses from AWs outdated with Fire Phoenix - if nothing else it's nice to be able to do ok on a few provinces in a round or two when my timing is off on pet food. I don't value them as much as I did before Fire Phoenix when making decisions on which AW to upgrade next, but it was never my main focus when upgrading anyway
 

DeletedUser22644

Guest
Anyone Brave, Willing and Knowledgeable enough to expand Soggy's guide to include the new chapters and AW?
@SoggyShorts
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Updated it, note recent chapters changes the status of some wonders from previous status

I have grabbed his post and modified it. Of course opinions vary.
For wonders level 1 to 30
"No brainers"
  • EE, PT, ToS. Each of them are better than workshops at level 1(with extremely rare exceptions like making bread 24/7, only collecting from PT once a day, and 72H+ scout times). All worth placing when you get them.
    • This analysis was based on non-magic workshops and the maths has not been re-checked for chapter 15 and 16 workshops which get a huge boost. PT would still be a no brainer due to its effect on PoP spells
  • Shrewdly shrooms- this building is an absolute must have if you want to use military. Even at level 1 it's better than a third armory, and it takes up zero pop. The more armouries you have the better this is
  • Dwarven bulwark-generally KP invested in the shrewdly is better than the dwarven bulwark, but you might unlock the bulwark months earlier which makes this a great wonder until then, and if you level it, it's not worth deleting. The exception been if you run a lot of armouries, then this moves to debatable
  • Needles-again, only military, but most troops come from barracks, and once you reach a point where your barracks level is always at max, then the only way to get more troops is this wonder(or crafting)
  • Monastery/sanctuary this is hands down the best military wonder. The only way to gain an advantage over the enemy in tournaments is to have buffed troops, and this is the only wonder that buffs all of them.
  • Mountain halls- any build that has at least 6 factories (T1 to T3) is better off building a MThall than building a 7th factory. The more factories the better it is, and that's not even counting the pop it gives you.
  • Golden abyss-as mentioned above, once this gives better pop per square than a house (around chapter 5/6) it's an obvious win. Only place immediately if you need gold, otherwise wait until chapter 5/6 for population unless this is your only wonder. Better to have 1 wonder than none.
  • Time Warp - Shortens tournament wait times making it easier to do 6 rounds and fit in around your life. The boost to sentient production is similar to MH. While you likely will have less factories then the 5/6 mentioned for MH the sheer pressure on seeds in elvenar will make you glad for every extra ounce of production
  • Simia Sapiens - More free troop is enough reason to build this. However if your less combat orientated this is still a must have unless you have a massive amount of PP spells or well in excess of 300 wonder levels for seed production. The elvenar chapter makes this a must have for sentient goods so you can stockple enough goods for the tech requirements
Special mention
  • Dragon abbey-a really cool wonder where you can get instant mana by spamming spells. Note the CC spell doesn't give mana. Also, you need to run your magic academy pretty much 24/7 to build up enough spells to make it useful meaning a greater commitment to the tournament for needed relics. Heavy tournament play can help provide the needed spells to make this wonder shine. Finally, you can only use this as your only mana source and use spells often if you do a lot of tournaments so you get lots of PoP and EE spells, Lvl 5 MA helps too
  • All other military wonders. If you get heavy into the tournaments, then you'll want to start adding in either the wonders that shore up your weak spots (human heavy ranged+toads) or doubles down on your strengths (dogs+victory springs) as space allows.
  • Elvenar trade center- good for getting needed seeds , their demand increases as the chapters progress, particularly in Ch15+. The boost to MM is quite powerful, and very handy in the sentient goods chapters to make your precious seeds go further.
  • Sunset towers- Incredible wonder for seed production and reduced decay. Chapter 15+ puts a huge demand on seeds and they are a major resource needed for upgrade wonders and manufactories as well as running the number of sentient factories that are required. With automated chest collections and easy visits this wonder is a great way to get seeds.
Debatable wonders:
  • Maze - Mana production per square based on mana gain is smaller than event buildings but mana per square with mana saved can make it the best option by far. A lot depends on playstyle
  • Blooming trader
    • Chapter 14 and below - if you win 1 trading post per event you are better off than having a level 11 BTG. And you save 17 squares. No, the wholesale reduction isn't great, go buy KP instead;)
    • Chapter 15+ brings a change in guest race requirements that limit the benefit of PP spells and puts a huge emphasis on guest race goods production.
  • Pyramid-craft a vallorian vallor or 2 instead, his needs to be level 9 or 13 to be better per square. If you only build this for free troops then there may be alternate options, but the free sentients with orcs is incredibly useful, the more orc producing buildings you run the better this is.
  • LoGN- niche wonder with a fatal flaw: you need buffs on mana buildings which generally aren't your best culture buildings. The niche is the boost to EE spells, the extra benefit in combination with other wonders can make a decent impact on coins and supplies production. The saving here lets you run much smaller numbers of workshops and residences (if your using hybrid culture buildings)
  • Thermal springs of youth - MH and GA are better for pop but once those get costly or maxed this is your next best option. Towns with heavy reliance on pop/culture buildings (low residences) might need to determine the tipping point for it. Culture is a plus from chapter 16.
  • Watchtower ruins
    • Chapter 15 and below - if you run a lot of pop/culture buildings you may have enough culture for a good bonus. This will reduce demand on pure culture buildings and allow pop/culture builds to focus more on pop heavy buildings with lower culture.
    • Chapter 16 - Culture demands go crazy and this becomes a no brainer wonder. The ability to peg your culture as a percentage of the increased demand is massive and that's before counting the extra bonus on help.
  • Tournament arena - If you like combat and tournaments then the free troops and extra points are pretty attractive. However drone riders have only one (maybe 2) tournaments where they are really useful and even then often people go with a different troop type.
Yet to determine
  • Vortex of storage - small sentient production and boosts PP spells. Still a little too early to tell how this will fall as future chapters will determine it, If elvenar is anything to go by sentient production will be critical so it may be handy but priortise timewarp/simia for now.
The absolute worst wonders are imo:
  • Enars-every event offers a building that is far far better per square at mana production.
  • Thrones- To get the culture to a respectable level you need 100's of wonder levels, every increasing as you progress. Chances are there will be far better culture buildings available at every stage, every KP invested would better be spent elsewhere. If however you want ranking points then consider this a "no brainer".
  • Spire library - Event buildings offer similar amounts of KP per day for less investment. If however you want ranking points then consider this a "debateable", value will depend on your fellowships participation in spire, probably want thrones before this.

Combinations worth noting
  • Lighthouse/Bells spire, watchtower and LoGN - Culture plus. The goal is to lengthen the time of neighbourly help so you get more help in your town (lighthouse/bell spire), this means more buildings for EE spells to be effective on and lets the LoGN benefit to come into play. Watchtower increase that neighbourly help boost. Having a culture bonus of 250-300+ is not unheard of with this combination
  • PoP and heroes forge - Double combo. Free HM troops that are stronger. Free orcs that give you sentient goods

Edit: Note that wonders level 30+ would need a different analysis due to the change in mechanics.
 
Last edited:

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
Don't know if EE, PT, ToS are no-brainers anymore, after massive workshop boost in chapter 15. What is no-brainers now is buffed Magic Workshops ;)

Similarly, can't say I am a big fan of Mountain Halls, in the late game at least. Perhaps good for people with massive amounts of goods production, but why? Nowadays, it is perfectly possible to run with no regular manufactories at all. For me, MH production boost is a big meh; I actually tend to see MH as a pop AW - basically, the next thing on the list after GA, and perhaps Thermal Springs, and perhaps Magic Residences.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Don't know if EE, PT, ToS are no-brainers anymore, after massive workshop boost in chapter 15. What is no-brainers now is buffed Magic Workshops ;)

Similarly, can't say I am a big fan of Mountain Halls, in the late game at least. Perhaps good for people with massive amounts of goods production, but why? Nowadays, it is perfectly possible to run with no regular manufactories at all. For me, MH production boost is a big meh; I actually tend to see MH as a pop AW - basically, the next thing on the list after GA, and perhaps Thermal Springs, and perhaps Magic Residences.

A level 36 residence covers 20 squares and gives 6800 pop. My level 11 Mountain Halls covers 24 squares and gives 16,711 pop. So two residences will still give less pop and take up 40 squares. Of course, since part of the pop it gives is based on working population, the fewer factories and workshops you have out, the less value it has for you.
 
Top