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    Your Elvenar Team

Ancient wonders

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Don't know if EE, PT, ToS are no-brainers anymore, after massive workshop boost in chapter 15. What is no-brainers now is buffed Magic Workshops ;)

Similarly, can't say I am a big fan of Mountain Halls, in the late game at least. Perhaps good for people with massive amounts of goods production, but why? Nowadays, it is perfectly possible to run with no regular manufactories at all. For me, MH production boost is a big meh; I actually tend to see MH as a pop AW - basically, the next thing on the list after GA, and perhaps Thermal Springs, and perhaps Magic Residences.

Yeah I needed to qualify ToS and EE for different reasons. Either way I left a lot of soggy's original content intact.

How are you running with no factories? Is it with event buildings that most people can't get anymore? Yes MH is mostly for pop but the extra goods don't hurt

Edit: Added some qualifiers to the list above.
 
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Deleted User - 4646370

Guest
The calculation made for MH looks buggy. A level 1 MH adds 24% of base production, which is 3% of boosted production. This means, you need 33 factories for its bonus to be as much as a factory's production... (even though when you upgrade MH boost increases, and so decreases this 33 number)
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
A level 36 residence covers 20 squares and gives 6800 pop. My level 11 Mountain Halls covers 24 squares and gives 16,711 pop. So two residences will still give less pop and take up 40 squares
OTOH, a single Magic Residence covers 20 squares and provides 13000 pop, so almost the same pop density as your L11 MH. It does need some culture as well (<4 squares), but can be teleported away and summoned when needed (unlike MH). It may need some initial diamonds (or can be gained in Spire for free), but then it doesn't need all the KPs invested into MH.
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
How are you running with no factories? Is it with event buildings that most people can't get anymore? Yes MH is mostly for pop but the extra goods don't hurt
I don't think I am alone there. I don't run with no factories, I run with no regular goods factories (I actually have 2x T1s, but these are there solely for event quests). Between Moonstone set (currently available), Gingerbread Mansion (recent), 2xMermaids Paradise (recent) and Jesters Tavern (OK, this one is relatively old), I have plenty of regular goods. I am not sure what I would spend it on? ;) My only expenditures are Spire negotiation (fairly minimal), and inputs into sentient production. Now chapter 16 is finally going to make a dent in my stockpile, or it was just growing with no manus whatsoever ;)
 

Handgrenade

New Member
I'd go for the ToS and EE to start, hold off on the other 2 for now.

"No brainers"
  • EE, PT, ToS. Each of them are better than workshops at level 1(with extremely rare exceptions like making bread 24/7, only collecting from PT once a day, and 72H+ scout times)
  • Shrewdly shrooms- this building is an absolute must have if you want to use military. Even at level 1 it's better than a third armory, and it takes up zero pop.
  • Dwarven bulwark-generally KP invested in the shrewdly is better than the dwarven bulwark, but you might unlock the bulwark months earlier which makes this a great wonder until then, and if you level it, it's not worth deleting.
  • Needles-again, only military, but most troops come from barracks, and once you reach a point where your barracks level is always at max, then the only way to get more troops is this wonder(or crafting)
  • Monastery/sanctuary after the shrewdly this is hands down the best military wonder. The only way to gain an advantage over the enemy in tournaments is to have buffed troops, and this is the only wonder that buffs all of them.
  • Mountain halls- any build that has at least 6 factories is better off building a MThall than building a 7th factory. The more factories the better it is, and that's not even counting the pop it gives you.
  • Golden abyss-as mentioned above, once this gives better pop per square than a house (around chapter 5/6) it's an obvious win.
Special mention
  • Dragon abbey-a really cool wonder where you can get instant mana by spamming spells. The problem is that crafting might get better and better and the CC spell doesn't give mana. Also, you need to run your magic academy pretty much 24/7 to build up enough spells to make it useful meaning a greater commitment to the tournament for needed relics. Finally, you can't really use this as your only mana source and use spells often( like constant PoP or MM)
  • All other military wonders. If you get heavy into the tournaments, then you'll want to start adding in either the wonders that shore up your weak spots (human heavy ranged+toads) or doubles down on your strengths (dogs+victory springs) as space allows.
  • Elvenar trade center- good for getting needed seeds in elementals, but much less needed in Amuni...but the boost to MM is quite powerful, so I'd say it's playstyle dependent.
The absolute worst wonders are imo:
  • Maze/Enars-every event offers a building that is far far better per square at mana production.
  • Thrones- not terrible for culture, but every KP invested would better be spent elsewhere.
  • Blooming trader- if you win 1 trading post per event you are better off than having a level 11 BTG. And you save 17 squares. No, the wholesale reduction isn't great, go buy KP instead;)
  • Pyramid-craft a vallorian vallor or 2 instead, his needs to be level 9 or 13 to be better per square.
  • LoGN- very niche wonder with a fatal flaw: you need buffs on mana buildings which generally arent your best culture buildings. If someone has a strategy where this wonder makes sense, I'd love to hear it.
  • Sunset towers- this wonder comes far too late to be of any use. The need for seeds drops dramatically in Amuni, so if there isn't a massive increase in seed requirements for chapter 14 it's a rather pointless wonder.

Then come the other culture wonders. If you like the super efficient culture&pop hybrids from events and get about 30-40%+ of your pop from them, then you will have no need for pure culture buildings in your city meaning the watch tower and lighthouse combo has no value as you won't need any culture buffs to hit 150% bonus- this is an especially effective strategy for players in more casual FS where they can't count on a lot of visits as they will see a better return after about 20-30% pop from hybrids.
If, for some reason, you don't do events, or choose other event buildings than the hybrids, then YMMV.
A quick note about the "build them all" strategy: it's true that every wonder is better than not having it(ignoring space efficiency), but if you build them all then you will largely have luck dictate which ones you can level up.
Without some skipped wonders like the lighthouse or thrones that you can use to smash runes and fill wanted wonders, you need a combination of luck, patience or diamonds to get the runes you need.
I almost quit reading after seeing TOS as good, but early game... yes but i would never level it up. The daily KP is a joke meant to shame players who put any into it. Lol however every last bit of the rest was usefull and makes me want to pick your brain on some of the builds i have thought about.
 

Handgrenade

New Member
Another newbie question after reading Soggy's AW list: Is ToS worth it solely on the KP production alone? I am always capped on supplies *most* of the time and am just looking at the KP the ToS produces in a day. Should I invest a significant amount of Ancient Knowledge on the ToS or pass altogether if I don't need supplies? Hope this makes sense.
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! please math it up for me. How much does it take to get to lv2? How many months would it take at max level to recover from lv2 KP investment. Your welcome.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
I almost quit reading after seeing TOS as good, but early game... yes but i would never level it up. The daily KP is a joke meant to shame players who put any into it. Lol however every last bit of the rest was usefull and makes me want to pick your brain on some of the builds i have thought about.

Just letting you know that you are responding to posts that are over a year old. Soggy has pretty much left the community (he has popped in on rare occasion after he said he had left), but you probably won't hear from him unless he just happens to drop by.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
I almost quit reading after seeing TOS as good, but early game... yes but i would never level it up. The daily KP is a joke meant to shame players who put any into it. Lol however every last bit of the rest was usefull and makes me want to pick your brain on some of the builds i have thought about.

I haven't done the maths in ages but would be surprised if Soggy got his math wrong. Pretty sure he has had to prove it more than once. His comparison was for a free to play town, magic workshops and premium towns change the maths. In terms of KP, I would not underestimate it as this game is a marathon not a sprint. If you thinking the next couple months then skip this wonder, if your thinking long term it might be what you want/need. I have a level 11 ToS and it has more than paid for itself in KP, its a wonder that pays out way more the sooner you put it in and level it.

You mention on another thread a small chapter town, any wonder, getting a wonder to level 6 is cheap, comparatively. Unless the wonder is filling a spot I wouldn't recommend a wonder to put in your town that you plan to keep at only level 1. Again soggy's math changes if he had done it for a level 6 wonder.
 

Handgrenade

New Member
I haven't done the maths in ages but would be surprised if Soggy got his math wrong. Pretty sure he has had to prove it more than once. His comparison was for a free to play town, magic workshops and premium towns change the maths. In terms of KP, I would not underestimate it as this game is a marathon not a sprint. If you thinking the next couple months then skip this wonder, if your thinking long term it might be what you want/need. I have a level 11 ToS and it has more than paid for itself in KP, its a wonder that pays out way more the sooner you put it in and level it.

You mention on another thread a small chapter town, any wonder, getting a wonder to level 6 is cheap, comparatively. Unless the wonder is filling a spot I wouldn't recommend a wonder to put in your town that you plan to keep at only level 1. Again soggy's math changes if he had done it for a level 6 wonder.
Why keep them at lv 1? Is there a strategy im missing here, please fill me in. I am not nearly as experienced as most everyone on the forums. I started playing in may. I read up on alot of the wonders in game as well as the gems comparisons. The TOS i see as filling a supplies gap early on. But even at a marathon or lifestyle i do not think the KP can pay you back in if you get it to say 6kp daily, in 2 years... have not mathed it up yet. Just guestimating, that folks will level other AWS first. Which pushes the repayment date even further. The first level is fairly easy and is worth the supplies i think, but after you dont need it for supplies i think you are upgrading GA, Needles, Sanctuary ect vice TOS. School me up, i may just need a nudge to look at it differently than i am. Im still chapter 3 and only have GA right now.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
The GA is was my first AW. I have continually used it for pop and it has served me well. I have all the AW's placed and I know there is always a lot of discussion about the 'usefulness' but I like AW's, so I compromise and keep them. My favorite is the crystal lighthouse, though. It benefits my 'hood and fellowship as well as the benefits it affords me.
 

DeletedUser9601

Guest
Why keep them at lv 1? Is there a strategy im missing here, please fill me in. I am not nearly as experienced as most everyone on the forums. I started playing in may. I read up on alot of the wonders in game as well as the gems comparisons. The TOS i see as filling a supplies gap early on. But even at a marathon or lifestyle i do not think the KP can pay you back in if you get it to say 6kp daily, in 2 years... have not mathed it up yet. Just guestimating, that folks will level other AWS first. Which pushes the repayment date even further. The first level is fairly easy and is worth the supplies i think, but after you dont need it for supplies i think you are upgrading GA, Needles, Sanctuary ect vice TOS. School me up, i may just need a nudge to look at it differently than i am. Im still chapter 3 and only have GA right now.
You always need supplies. Drop a workshop if you find yourself with too many supplies. That's the beauty of the TOS. Think of the KP as an extra bonus. The real value is getting more supplies than a workshop, without devoting all the population and culture (and later on, city space).
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Why keep them at lv 1?

What I was saying is that there is no point to leave them at level 1, unless you plan to delete it.

In terms of your chapter it is all approach. I personally don't waste space in a town with a GA at chapter 3, its a space hog unless I need gold (which I never do at that chapter). ToS however fills a huge hole in supplies at that level, your scouting heaps so regular boost and the KP is a bonus. If you push it up to 6 you basically ready to drop in the GA and then focusing on it. GA starts to gain its power around chapter 5 and only gets more powerful from there.

Another thing with ToS is I believe it is a mistake to measure it's KP verse the cost to level. I don't measure the GA or other wonders in the same fashion. Very difficult to measure and I mention GA cause I can buy KP with it. I do know players who focus hard on KP generation so this wonder works very well for them and similar styles.
 

acefair

Member
Don’t forget that to get such a strong AW, she’s spent more than 10k+ KPs to level the GA that far.
My GA is level 31 and provides 124k population. I would need nearly 4.5 Chapter 19 Magic Residences (at 6x4 apiece) to get the same pop. Not bad for a little 3x3 building! For those who say I put a bunch of KP into it, that is true. Fortunately, though, I have a fellowship and neighbors that are interested in gaining GA relics, so I don't have to contribute all of the KP. Additionally, I have such an abundance of daily gold income, I HAVE to buy about 20KP every day.
 

defiantoneks

Well-Known Member
ToS becomes useless once you reach higher chapters. It's handy through say, 12-3 but once your scouts start to take a couple of days the ROI is not worth the space.

I love the GA simply for the pop. The coins it supplies are just bonus. I've never bothered with EE, Lighthouse Einar's whatever…
Once you get to mana and seeds the AWs related to portals and sentient… those all become super useful. Unfortunately those that become available around ch 16-17 are not things I see a great value in. skipping by most/all of those.
 
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