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    Your Elvenar Team

City Auto-Collect Badge

jtrain

New Member
So I've got 64 workshops and am generating Brewery badges while playing on my laptop. It is such a pain to have to click on 64 workshops and manually collect the badge at 50 workshops or else the other 14 beverages get wasted.

Here is my suggestion:

Auto-generate/auto-collect the badge once the requirement is met then continue collecting towards the next badge. There is no point for generated supplies, gold, or troops to be wasted just because the badge wasn't manually collected first.

Example

If I need 10,000 gold to get to the next Sack of Coins badge and I collect 12,000 gold from one residence, auto-generate a Sack of Coins badge and credit me 2000 gold towards the next badge. There's no reason why that extra 2000 gold should just disappear.
 
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hvariidh gwendrot

Well-Known Member
considering they used to make you cycle through 16 quests .. click 5 toolboxes ..then accept blacksmith badge .. then cycle through 16 quests to get to the correct quest again .. to click 5 toolboxes .. to collect the blacksmith badge .. the current system is actually quite nice where all the badges are listed and you can be doing multiple badges at once .. i think a better question would be, are players capable of thinking for themselves and paying attention to what they are doing to earn the rewards ?
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
There's no reason why that extra 2000 gold should just disappear.
This would be lovely. Unfortunately, Elvenar has a track record of making sure there is a way to lose out just a little on most of the goodies it gives out. 12 hour collect event buildings are timed to force a slow creep so that, over time, you don't get the full value of that building, for example. Or...asking a player to pay closer attention to what they are doing, as mentioned above. I'm afraid having an obstacle like badges that don't auto-collect is on par with Elvenar staples. But I can't stress enough how the bright side really is that we no longer have to scroll manually through 16 badges (clicking decline and then clicking again to confirm declining) to collect 5 workshops :)
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
considering they used to make you cycle through 16 quests ..
Absolutley irrelevant and totally useless comment. Just because something was even worse before does not mean there is no further room for improvement.
i think a better question would be, are players capable of thinking for themselves and paying attention to what they are doing to earn the rewards ?
  1. Casting an MM spell on 3 factories,
  2. opening the FA UI,
  3. clicking complete,
  4. closing the FA UI,
  5. opening the inventory UI,
  6. clicking the MM spell
  7. casting MM on my other 3 factories
vs
  1. Casting MM on my 6 factories.
Perhaps the better question would be "why are you against this, and what possible benefit do you get out of crapping on other players constantly?"
 

Aritra

Well-Known Member
For the most part, I didn't mind the collection process (though the interruptions could get annoying). It's the restart that was a pain (imo). Workshops are great because you can check the box and start all productions (in my case, this FA, thirty of them) all at once, whereas, after I collected from my twenty lvl.1 marbles (plus six lvl.15-16 if running on FA cycle vs city business), I had to click each one to get the next round started. Not looking for the easy way out here, but that gets real tedious. This is a feature that we (I know I'm not the only one) are glad to opt into for workshops and would love to see it regarding factories. The tediousness of turning over twenty tiny factories just highlighted my preexisting desire for the select all option for factories that is already available for workshops.
 
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ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
Absolutley irrelevant and totally useless comment. Just because something was even worse before does not mean there is no further room for improvement.

  1. Casting an MM spell on 3 factories,
  2. opening the FA UI,
  3. clicking complete,
  4. closing the FA UI,
  5. opening the inventory UI,
  6. clicking the MM spell
  7. casting MM on my other 3 factories
vs
  1. Casting MM on my 6 factories.
Perhaps the better question would be "why are you against this, and what possible benefit do you get out of crapping on other players constantly?"
Well said. "It was worse," is not a rational response to a suggestion of how "it could be better."

AND aside from the displeasure shown regarding somebody's response, what is your opinion of the matter at hand? You really don't say clearly but instead present some negative comments about how others are responding.

My opinion is while the OP has a point, one of the ways you excel in anything is by paying attention AND doing the steps necessary to get the job done. That the steps are too many is a choice made when putting in 64 workshops. I'm sure the OP wasn't surprised that he/she had to be careful in collecting lest he/she lose some production needlessly. Having wasted more badges than I can count by doing 2 entire rounds of the tournament and completing the Spire and forgetting to collect a good deal of those badges "I feel you pain." But the player who doesn't do that, the one who has a better focus and perhaps discipline would lose that advantage if auto-collect badges were instituted. And therefore, I'm not for that.

My reasoning is that the more differences you have between fellowships in terms of their abilities, the more the Fellowship Adventure is a competition. If, for instance, you allowed all badges to be automatically collected, then all fellowship would have that done for them. If you let fellowships combine their partial badges all fellowships would have that avenue to make up for less successful planning. If you allowed a pool of badges to be applied by the AM or Mages, that too would pretty much make the distinction between those fellowships who plan and execute and those who do less planning more fuzzy. In other words, while all these are good suggestions, they all have the result of making the differences between fellowships less distinctive in the FA. And without a good deal of distinction, the competition becomes more about luck than anything else.

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
And without a good deal of distinction, the competition becomes more about luck than anything else.
I see no luck variable other than MA recipes and CC from spire chests.

On top of that, the suggestion isn't actually to fix the misclicks, since we avoid them 99% of the time, it's just to allow us to collect without worrying about it. I absolutely can and do set and collect from all 106 little marble dudes every single time without error, but it's annoying, slow, and doesn't add anything to my enjoyment or the competition in any way. There would be zero loss of distinction between teams if this was changed.

Sure, there is a point to be made that teams who enjoy tedium a little more than others will straight up participate more, but that shouldn't be the goal we're aiming for with this.
If you let fellowships combine their partial badges all fellowships would have that avenue to make up for less successful planning. If you allowed a pool of badges to be applied by the AM or Mages, that too would pretty much make the distinction between those fellowships who plan and execute and those who do less planning more fuzzy.
We should not lump the partial or especially the "pool badges" ideas into the same category of suggestions.
Making the application of 6 MM spells, or the clearing of 15 tournament provinces a smoother, uninterrupted process does not remove any of the activity, coordination, strategy, or general teamwork required and IMO those are the pillars of the FA that need protection.
 

Iamaita

Active Member
The wonder badges were the most tedious for me... fellowship list, wonder list, wonder, donate 10, close wonder, close wonder list, close fellowship list, open quest list, click event quests, claim badge. Repeat. Over. And. Over.

I completely agree that a faster method with fewer clicks for collecting badges would remove unnecessary and annoying tedium without significantly altering either the challenge, fairness or competition of the event. An autocollect feature or, since that seems to go against inno philosophy about automated collections of any kind, a pop up window with one button that appears when a badge is ready and then immediately disappears after collection.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
I see no luck variable other than MA recipes and CC from spire chests.

On top of that, the suggestion isn't actually to fix the misclicks, since we avoid them 99% of the time, it's just to allow us to collect without worrying about it. I absolutely can and do set and collect from all 106 little marble dudes every single time without error, but it's annoying, slow, and doesn't add anything to my enjoyment or the competition in any way. There would be zero loss of distinction between teams if this was changed.

Sure, there is a point to be made that teams who enjoy tedium a little more than others will straight up participate more, but that shouldn't be the goal we're aiming for with this.

We should not lump the partial or especially the "pool badges" ideas into the same category of suggestions.
Making the application of 6 MM spells, or the clearing of 15 tournament provinces a smoother, uninterrupted process does not remove any of the activity, coordination, strategy, or general teamwork required and IMO those are the pillars of the FA that need protection.
As for the luck I do believe you missed my point. I'm saying that the more you remove skills from a competition the more you make the winner a matter of luck. Thus, the focus it takes to NOT overshoot the number of items needing to be collected for a badge, is a skill. The proper distribution of production orders (meaning who is making what) is a skill. The ability to know who will be on line when and able to put in what badges is a skill. Things that give us the ability to need less skills by helping us avoid mistakes and/or making things more automatic lessen the distinction between one fellowship and another and thus narrows the differences between fellowships. If done to the point where everything is automated and no mistakes can be made then it becomes nothing but luck which determines the outcome. Any two exactly matched teams engaged in a competition will end up with each winning half the time. Reducing the differences between two teams only brings them closer and closer to that point that they are equally matched.

The skills you list as "activity, coordination, strategy, or general teamwork" and say "are the pillars of the FA" are important to the competition but individual skills are also important. A basketball team may have the greatest coach, and greatest plan but if they have 5 5' 3" players on the court they are going to have a very, very hard time in the NBA. And if those 5 players shoot 20% on any given night, it's called losing. Individual skills are just as much a part of the competition as fellowship skills. Fellowship skills you mention come from individual leadership. Execution of things comes from the individual players. Any group of individual players not making over-clicking mistakes is going to do, all things being equal, better than a group that does make those mistakes. Removing or allowing the team to adjust or automate so those mistakes can be covered or even avoided, removes the differences between one team an another. Skills generally reside in the individual.

AJ
 
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SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz
You're still far too focused on the miss-clicks that aren't actually happening.
Yes, I make a collection error once or twice per year, but that's not what I want fixed. I want to collect 50x as fast as I currently do.

What you're implying:
I'm hunched over my keyboard carefully maneuvering my mouse across my city attaining near-machine-like precision. I'm thankful for the Beta-blockers I took earlier to slow my heart rate. I take a breath and hold it in as a bead of sweat rolls down my neck. I blank my mind and focus, knowing that everything is riding on this moment. My finger twitches in anticipation, I exhale slowly as I press down. It's perfect. One-click, two kills. I can go now, my work here is done.

What actually happens:
I click, I click, I sigh. repeat.

Everyone is being meticulous about collections, so it isn't actually affecting who wins and who loses. There is zero skill involved in clicking the FA interface every 3 tournament encounters. No FS is gaining an advantage over another.

In fact, I would argue that the current system introduces an entirely unfair luck metric since many (most?) misclicks actually occur due to lag which is totally out of the player's control.
 
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ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz
You're still far too focused on the miss-clicks that aren't actually happening.
Yes, I make a collection error once or twice per year, but that's not what I want fixed. I want to collect 50x as fast as I currently do.

What you're implying:
I'm hunched over my keyboard carefully maneuvering my mouse across my city attaining near-machine-like precision. I'm thankful for the Beta-blockers I took earlier to slow my heart rate. I take a breath and hold it in as a bead of sweat rolls down my neck. I blank my mind and focus, knowing that everything is riding on this moment. My finger twitches in anticipation, I press down smoothly. It's perfect. One-click, two kills. I can go now, my work here is done.

What actually happens:
I click, I click, I sigh. repeat.

Everyone is being meticulous about collections, so it isn't actually affecting who wins and who loses. There is zero skill involved in clicking the FA interface every 3 tournament encounters. No FS is gaining an advantage over another.

In fact, I would argue that the current system introduces an entirely unfair luck metric since many (most?) misclicks actually occur due to lag which is totally out of the player's control.
First, I'm focused upon the miss-clicks because in spite of your claim that "everyone is being meticulous about collections" miss-clicks do occur. Usually though, it's not when yo are collecting but when you are moving the map around. I've accidentally skimmed over more than one building and lost things. In the recent FA a very experienced player lost two statues by miss-clicking. So it does happen.

Second, there is the skill of staying focused while doing tournaments. Twice I rushed through 25 provinces and forgot to collect most of the badges I could have collected. Twice, I did that. I don't have a great skill in multi-tasking so I lost some badges. Improving that skill will help my team in the FA. Fixing the results of my errors by having things auto collect would mean the particular skill of multi-tasking (remembering the FA in the midst of tournament participation) would have less of an impact on over performance.

Third, while miss-clicks are a problem, they aren't the sum total of my focus. I look at the various aspects of competition and note that what makes one team finish above another is skill. Both team and individual skills. I've outlined two actual scenarios where badges were lost, one due to the game or player (not sure which though the player blamed herself), the other due to the lack of skill in a player.

In the end you are just wrong about no fellowship gaining an advantage over another in this. If NOT "everyone is meticulous about collections" then those who are less meticulous are collecting fewer badges, and fellowships like yours (I don't think you are in one, are you?) which contain only members who are "meticulous about collections" are going to do better than fellowships like mine who are not as meticulous.

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
In the end you are just wrong about no fellowship gaining an advantage over another in this. If NOT "everyone is meticulous about collections" then those who are less meticulous are collecting fewer badges, and fellowships like yours (I don't think you are in one, are you?) which contain only members who are "meticulous about collections" are going to do better than fellowships like mine who are not as meticulous.
Sigh. Of course, there are exceptions. For the vast majority, my point stands.
The fellowships that ranked +1 and -1 from my FS would still be in the exact same spot if this change was implemented.
Yes, misclicks happen, yes they are a factor, no they do not determine the outcome.

I reject your position that fellowships do better than others due to meticulous collection. Has one fellowship ever surpassed another in the FA due to a handful of misclicks? Sure, probably. Does it happen so often that this massive quality of life improvement should scrapped?
Absolutely not.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
Sigh. Of course, there are exceptions. For the vast majority, my point stands.
The fellowships that ranked +1 and -1 from my FS would still be in the exact same spot if this change was implemented.
Yes, misclicks happen, yes they are a factor, no they do not determine the outcome.

I reject your position that fellowships do better than others due to meticulous collection. Has one fellowship ever surpassed another in the FA due to a handful of misclicks? Sure, probably. Does it happen so often that this massive quality of life improvement should scrapped?
Absolutely not.
The answer is: yes. Miss-clicks on the FA just before January 2020 at the very last moment mean we fell one thing (I can't remember what it was for some reason) short of the next whirlpool. We dropped one place. Sometimes meticulous just takes too much time.

Using "massive quality of life improvement" is a rhetorical device meant to, in this case, minimize the view of your opponent. It's exaggeration of course, but applying such a phrase to your opponents view implies your opponent believes it will have such a largeimpact. Since it's not my claim that by itself this single change would result in a "massive quality of life improvement" one way or the other, it's probably not a good idea to imply that's my position. Okay? :>)

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Okay? :>)
No. Not okay. This would be an improvement to the game that would outweigh the downside you are claiming.
The FA as a whole is objectively worse for lack of this feature.

Like every thread on these forums, the 1% (often less) out-weigh the 99% though, so the suggestion like the rest will take years to implement if it ever even reaches the developers.

The participants on these forums almost without exception complain about how slow inno is to implement improvements, but it's us. We are to blame.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
No. Not okay. This would be an improvement to the game that would outweigh the downside you are claiming.
The FA as a whole is objectively worse for lack of this feature.

Like every thread on these forums, the 1% (often less) out-weigh the 99% though, so the suggestion like the rest will take years to implement if it ever even reaches the developers.

The participants on these forums almost without exception complain about how slow inno is to implement improvements, but it's us. We are to blame.
The "okay?" was at the end of a paragraph tying to politely chide you for your use of the rhetorical device of describing your opponents position in an exaggerated manner and thus implying he believes that exaggeration to be the truth. It was not about the OP's or anyone else's position on the matter before us. I'm politely asking you to be careful to not use such rhetorical strategies as they tend to miss-represent your opponent's view. Sorry if I was not clear.

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Sorry if I was not clear.
Oh, you were clear. My pointing out that this would be a massive quality of life improvement was intended to minimize the importance of your argument because... I don't think it's important enough to scrap the OP's suggestion.

I appreciate your politeness, but your continued focus on a minor side-effect has removed any possibility for the appearance of a united community on this suggestion, and that's a real shame.

At least partly my fault for engaging with you on it I guess.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
The wonder badges were the most tedious for me... fellowship list, wonder list, wonder, donate 10, close wonder, close wonder list, close fellowship list, open quest list, click event quests, claim badge. Repeat. Over. And. Over.

I completely agree that a faster method with fewer clicks for collecting badges would remove unnecessary and annoying tedium without significantly altering either the challenge, fairness or competition of the event. An autocollect feature or, since that seems to go against inno philosophy about automated collections of any kind, a pop up window with one button that appears when a badge is ready and then immediately disappears after collection.
I suspect the original design of the FA did not anticipate the ability of the players to find way of producing huge amounts of badges -- thus necessitating all the constant click and collect tedium. And if, in an ideal world, people played with the city they have as they had it before the advent of the Fellowship Adventures, they wouldn't have the space to add 350 workshops and all that.

So, in some ways whatever tedium a player has is their choice. Nobody is forced to choose to try to rank high in the FA and thus to have some kind of farm system to produce a lot of badges. A player chooses the tedium because they enjoy the results. An athlete is in much the same boat. He or she decides to endure, sometimes years, of training to get the gold. I know an athlete asked to represent the US in the 1988 Olympics. He turned it down because he had reached a point that the tedium of training was not worth winning yet another meet even if it was the Olympics. Instead he went to dental school.

I agree that the suggestion, if adopted, would probably not change things much, and never argued that it would by itself. And since it would affect all equally it would be fair by default I have no real objection to this change by itself.

AJ
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
I would argue that the current system introduces an entirely unfair luck metric since many (most?) misclicks actually occur due to lag which is totally out of the player's control.
The FA as a whole is objectively worse for lack of this feature.
These two points won me over. The FA needs all the attention and improvement it can get...and I'm actually one of those players who likes them!
Yes, auto collect is a good improvement - that lag is the worst and gets me too often to just simply put up with it.

@jtrain the developers will likely need a solid set of good reasons and it's worth pushing for. I'm thinking now about suggestions that made it through in the past, and that actually got a promising "nod" from the developers...so, I would suggest adding a point about the lag somewhere in the formal suggestion - perhaps as a "pro", reasoning for the idea. I'd also suggest adding a statement about the need for improvement to entice more players to give the FA a real chance. A feature like this would, I think, help some players get more on board with playing in them.
 

Aritra

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz
Everyone is being meticulous about collections, so it isn't actually affecting who wins and who loses. There is zero skill involved in clicking the FA interface every 3 tournament encounters. No FS is gaining an advantage over another.
I disagree regarding the zero-skill claim. I don't have numbers or citations to back this up, but we know people vary in skills, period, and some are better at multi-tasking and impulse-control than others. These are personal traits that can sometimes be improved upon through intent, but it is a component of every individual's personal skill set. It could be argued that fellowships with higher percentage of members who possess a higher level of these two particular skills are likely to be comparatively more successful (contributed by badge redemption without waste), but this is a people-thing and not something for the game/quest design to be held responsible for fairness.

My reasoning is that the more differences you have between fellowships in terms of their abilities, the more the Fellowship Adventure is a competition. If, for instance, you allowed all badges to be automatically collected, then all fellowship would have that done for them. If you let fellowships combine their partial badges all fellowships would have that avenue to make up for less successful planning. If you allowed a pool of badges to be applied by the AM or Mages, that too would pretty much make the distinction between those fellowships who plan and execute and those who do less planning more fuzzy. In other words, while all these are good suggestions, they all have the result of making the differences between fellowships less distinctive in the FA. And without a good deal of distinction, the competition becomes more about luck than anything else.
I agree. I do not think leveling the playing field in this particular aspect by universal fool-proof collection is an answer. What is the answer? In my opinion, it is do nothing (to make collection more fool-proof). Variance in collective group skill is a legitimate factor and one I don't believe should be repressed.

@ajqtrz
In fact, I would argue that the current system introduces an entirely unfair luck metric since many (most?) misclicks actually occur due to lag which is totally out of the player's control.
I understand that lag is out of player's control, but I don't understand how the misclicks resulting from it demonstrates success based on "luck" (not sure I phrased this correctly, but you likely get my meaning). This is back to the skill argument/discussion around collection for badges without waste. If you know the badge you're fulfilling needs three collections, you click once-twice-thrice-redeem. The lag just means an extra moment of delay before redemption (and determining if all the clicks contributed to that redemption), but there is never a reason to click more than three times if you are collecting for a 3x badge (until you determine one didn't count). The only way I see lag being responsible for misclicks is if the player is clicking away and depending on the game to tell it when to stop (which is irresponsible, in my opinion, if one is trying to maximize badges and minimize waste). Even the most experienced and meticulous players misclick sometimes, but I don't believe lag should be blamed.

@jtrain Regarding the original post request (which we got only a bit off track): I think that the solution is not a universal redemption button but that there be specific exceptions to the no-stacking rule. I do not oppose no-stacking (and maybe a little bit defend it), but it is unfair when it is collecting things of quantities that are consistently out of alignment from the quota and there is practically unavoidable waste. I would see the problem solved by lifting the no-stacking restriction from sacks of gold, arcane residue, bracelets, and elvarian guard (only those, as I believe the others can be managed with infrequent waste as opposed to practically unavoidable waste in the current scheme).

[ :eek: me bracing for the dog-pile, lol]
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I disagree regarding the zero-skill claim. I don't have numbers or citations to back this up, but we know people vary in skills, period, and some are better at multi-tasking and impulse-control than others.
Variance in collective group skill is a legitimate factor and one I don't believe should be repressed.
Sorry, can you elaborate on what "skill" is required for clicking the FA interface every 3 tournament provinces? Focus? Really? The ability to see a green checkmark pop up and to click it? "Skill"?

Is it super important and makes the game better for players who are just ever so slightly better at zombie clicking than others?
That is what should be important?
Do you honestly believe that the game is better off forcing players to click the interface between tournament encounters?

skill.png