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    Your Elvenar Team

Autumn Zodiac Event Feedback

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Ashrem

Oh Wise One
They are looking for a way to level the playing field. They need to make event buildings interesting and useful enough for people to participate, without having them game unbalancing. At least one person we know of (because it was posted here) won more than 10 mermaid grand prizes leveled. That's 10 mermaids, 90 artifacts, and 100 other major prizes. Even if they were restricted to one, the remaining 200 plus cycles through the chest grand prizes would be game unbalancing. They had to do something different. I don't think they made anybody happier this time around, so maybe they'll do better next time. Thinking they did it to deliberately hamstring the average player is a mistake. There are still nearly 3 weeks to find an option that works better, and hopefully the next big event will bring an improvement rather than another snafu.

Letting them know this particular iteration of events has made us unhappy (and how and why) is useful and reasonable. Histrionics is not useful. A person who threatens to quit is not going to galvanize them any more than what they are currently seeing in game participation. We have an opportunity on the forums to inform them of exactly how we think they screwed up. Telling them what isn't working is several times more useful than screaming and slamming the door.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
And let's keep in perspective that fact that the devs' answer to the small number of complaints was to make the game harder for everyone, including both those who complained and those who just got down to it and spent two weeks decimating their current layout and leveling buildings only to have it do no good at all and still have the event be oven more ridiculously hard than if the second changes hadn't been made. Personally, I think a little outrage at the whiners who caused itis called for, whether they were casual or not.
The complainers were those who spoke against an excessive number of toolbox quests that kept on coming up. It is the stickiness issue more than a "workshop quests are tough" issue. And, as I mentioned before, double speak is at work. The reduction of the maximum number of keys had nothing to do with balancing a reduction of workshop quests.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
They are looking for a way to level the playing field. They need to make event buildings interesting and useful enough for people to participate, without having them game unbalancing. At least one person we know of (because it was posted here) won more than 10 mermaid grand prizes leveled. That's 10 mermaids, 90 artifacts, and 100 other major prizes. Even if they were restricted to one, the remaining 200 plus cycles through the chest grand prizes would be game unbalancing.

As mentioned on Beta, they are seeking something which is virtually impossible. There will always be those that can temporarily (whether or not it is sustainable) shoot through the quests no matter what restrictions are involved. By balancing the difficulty based on the overperformers, the regular players end up having more trouble making a modest amount of progress.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
The complainers were those who spoke against an excessive number of toolbox quests that kept on coming up. It is the stickiness issue more than a "workshop quests are tough" issue. And, as I mentioned before, double speak is at work. The reduction of the maximum number of keys had nothing to do with balancing a reduction of workshop quests.
There are lots of complaints. The complaints under discussion were the ones who didn't want to be shut out of the game because their WS and Factories aren't/weren't leveled to near their current chapter, or they didn't have enough of them. The removal of many of those quests triggered (either directly or indirectly) the problem with quests re-occurring to frequently.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
As mentioned on Beta, they are seeking something which is virtually impossible. There will always be those that can temporarily (whether or not it is sustainable) shoot through the quests no matter what restrictions are involved. By balancing the difficulty based on the overperformers, the regular players end up having more trouble making a modest amount of progress.
I am not an overacheiver. In general, I haven't been able to complete most grand prizes in the past. I got enough artifacts to level on Phoenix, didn't get enough to level a stonehenge, but was able to get enough to fully level 4 mermaids. That had nothing to do with overacheiving.
The stickiness was an issue throughout the Beta testing. Removal of quests came later.
Some, yes. The second version made it significantly worse. Regardless, it wasn't complaints about stickiness that were being referred to as whining. that is a valid problem. Complaints about needing leveled buildings is what was being referred to as whining.
 

shimmerfly

Well-Known Member
I didn't care about the toolboxes at all but the constant gain 7 relics followed by 15VV...scout a province etc. I got those same 2 quests at least 7 times in a row. Over and over. Toolboxes were a relief.
Pointing fingers at each other solves nothing Emotions are running high when so many are disappointed. So let's not bite each others heads off.
I truly hope they fix the repetition of the quests and make it fair and fun for all again before they lose to many good players. I'm trying really hard not to be negative. :p

edited because I hate spellcheck.
 

Black watch

Well-Known Member
I have no doubt about this ! To me Workshops are parts of mandatory buildings. I have 10 Magical Workshops and 450~500 Culture Bonus, and I still need sometimes to cast Power of Provision on a few of them to get enough supplies for my needs (mostly troops training).

Thanks for your support, much appreciated, sincerely :)

These are just facts, not insults. I respect any gaming style and I don't feel superior to casual players or forum addicts in any way. I just called things by their names. Everyone's freedom ends where others's starts.

My only reproach goes to INNO who applied an emergency and unfair fix based on the complaints of a minority of players without even consulting the majority of the players that were happy with the event. Especially when the problems reported by those players didn't show up during the one week of test on Beta server.

If some players felt insulted by my post, I am really sorry about it, that was really not my intention. Please accept my sincere apologies where appropriate.
Also, English is not my mother's language, and my poor english can lead to some missunderstandings, sorry for that too. Just take everything I say at the 1st degree, there is nothing to read between the lines, neither hidden intentions or thoughts... thanks for your understanding. Peace.

Now please let's close that part of the discussion and go back on topic:

@Ælfwine : WE WANT OUR 188 KEYS PER QUEST BACK !
The emeregency fix you applied next day the Event went live is not appropriate and just not acceptable

Many of my ingame friends who fully agree with me said they will come to the Forum to support me. I just hope they will really do it, because I know most of them never posted so far.

Shyama1

I'm sorry Shyama... I've been reading just about everything on the forum (because this event is causing me a lot of down time in playing due to the long quest times) and from what I've read, the majority of players aren't happy with the changes... OR with the set-up and implementation of this event, etc.
Few by far have expressed a positive note in regards to this event.
There are multiple issues and not the least was/is the nerfing down of the keys per quest.

And as far as the next highlighted part of your message goes. This isn't a competition or battle... it's just people expressing themselves, whether from happiness, a neutral perspective, frustration or outright anger AND damn near ever word here is got a firm foundation focused on INNO and it's failure to communicate and address issues in one way or another.

I'm glad you are able to express your frustration and anger toward INNO's extremely poor decision to reduce the keys... I agree.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Complaining about needing leveled buildings is a valid complaint. It forces us to change our entire playstyle and city layouts if we want to participate in the events, which any active player does.
It certainly is. The level of many of the complaints rose to whining and even harassment. Saying this is a problem is fine. Posting in several different threads and riling people up that the world is going to end because of it is unnecessary.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
Complaining about needing leveled buildings is a valid complaint. It forces us to change our entire playstyle and city layouts if we want to participate in the events, which any active player does.

Considering the endgame expectation of the chapter quests was four workshops and one T1 boosted manufactory, those that didn't exceed these expectations would likely be leveling up quite a few unneeded buildings for the event.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
I am not an overacheiver. In general, I haven't been able to complete most grand prizes in the past. I got enough artifacts to level on Phoenix, didn't get enough to level a stonehenge, but was able to get enough to fully level 4 mermaids. That had nothing to do with overacheiving.

But is this progress sustainable? At the end game can you reasonably be expected to do that many sets of complete two provinces to get 4 mermaids? I was finding that 1 1/2 mermaids were about the same province investment that is usually required in other events.
 

Foldedspace

Well-Known Member
Considering the endgame expectation of the chapter quests was four workshops and one T1 boosted manufactory, those that didn't exceed these expectations would likely be leveling up quite a few unneeded buildings for the event.

Exactly. Which would require massive changes in population and culture as well. Inno basically told us for the last several years to reduce our workshops and manufacturies to almost nothing, now they've changed that with no notice. I don't blame people for being livid over it, considering the amount of time and real money players have put into this game.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
I was annoyed almost three weeks ago when this started on Beta about the level requirements for the workshops and factories. But after being annoyed for a couple of days, I built brand new marble factories for the event and got them to level 24 with plenty of time to spare. And now I am doing fine. Yes, despite their excuses about it, Inno really should have announced this new requirement more than a day or two before the event started on all the live servers. And for anyone who is a regular forum member who got caught by surprise by this, maybe you all should scan the stickied Beta spoiler thread more often.

@Pheryll I did 2 1/2 Mermaid buildings and I would have completed that third one if I had not gotten tired of the Complete 2 Provinces quest and having to scout those 2 provinces before I could complete them. I still have Time instants in my inventory, but I decided two of the building was enough and I relaxed over the final week of that event. I did not keep my notes from that one, but I remember having that Complete quest more than 10 times before I got to the one where I just decided to let the scouting take it's normal time to complete.
 

Foldedspace

Well-Known Member
It's very difficult for most players to level up several new buildings all the way to their current chapter, when many of us are strapped for population and culture (AND SPACE) even with our reduced number of workshops and manufacturies. It's great that you were able to, but that's not possible for many players without major restructuring, which takes a lot of time and playstyle changes.
 
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Black watch

Well-Known Member
"A few who complained" and "all casual players" are not remotely the same thing. If you're going to accuse someone of insulting all casual players and all forum users, they should at least have insulted a large number of them, rather than the twenty-or-so players who actually complained about the requirements.

And let's keep in perspective that fact that the devs' answer to the small number of complaints was to make the game harder for everyone, including both those who complained and those who just got down to it and spent two weeks decimating their current layout and leveling buildings only to have it do no good at all and still have the event be oven more ridiculously hard than if the second changes hadn't been made. Personally, I think a little outrage at the whiners who caused itis called for, whether they were casual or not.

I agree Ashrem, with most of your post. From your perspective, I can see that, and I'll even agree to most of it.
What I don't agree with is the highlighted line.
If INNO based it's change on only a few posts of feedback, then they made a bad decision. People/players have a right to post their frustrations, etc on the forum. It's healthy and even useful to read all the different perspectives of play. Styles are varied and at times exciting (playing with no residences comes to mind) though we probably wouldn't change our cities to mimic what we read someone else is doing.
So my point is, INNO didn't have to change what they were doing, especially for such a small demographic.
INNO doesn't have to even read the forum posts (some have even said, they obviously don't).
And lastly, the changes INNO HAS done, have been heavy handed and not thought out well, as evidenced by the insane quest repetition and enormous amount of negative feedback by damn near ALL players. THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT. THEY CHOSE TO DO THIS AND WE ARE NOW PAYING THE PRICE OF THEIR CHOICES.
I don't blame anyone on this forum... I BLAME INNO for obviously bad reactions and a poorly thought out event.

It is so painfully obvious that they could have done so much better, it's not even funny- even in a weird way.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
People/players have a right to post their frustrations,
As I've said several times. Everyone can, and should, post what they think is wrong. Nobody has the "right" to whine and scream and threatening to quit. "I can't make/level enough workshops to do well in the event. This is the final straw, I'm done" Tells them what they did wrong, and what you are doing about it. "Why do you hate the players?" "Everything is about diamonds." "This event is horrible and I refuse to play." Is non-useful whining
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
But is this progress sustainable?
You tell me. Here's my data. I've added five fully upgraded from scratch to level 24 marble factories and four fully upgraded from scratch to level 26 workshops in the last two weeks, and I have 6500 keys and still have 230 8-hour instants and 640 1-hour instants left from Mermaids.
 

DeletedUser3468

Guest
It's very difficult for most players to level up several new buildings all the way to their current chapter, when many of us are strapped for population and culture (AND SPACE) even with our reduced number of workshops and manufacturies. It's great that you were able to, but that's not possible for many players without major restructuring, which takes a lot of time and playstyle changes.

Thank you! I am really disliking this whole need for buildings leveled up to certain level since in my larger cities I had been reducing the number of factories and workshops I had because of space and population concerns and the fact that the larger ones I kept produce more than enough goods and supplies. Having more would just produce an excess, especially of supplies. So in my older, larger cities I'm struggling to keep up with only two or three T1 factories & workshops. In my mid sized cities (orcs level) I found I only had 1 T1 factory that met their criteria and had to actually sell off factories to make the space and regain the population needed to upgrade 4 other factories. Now my city is a mess with factories scattered wherever I had the space for them. (at least my workshops there were fine and I had 8 or 9 of them) Look Inno, I accept that to continue to advance in the game I am going to have to, at some point, upgrade factories, workshops and residences but to have to do so just to participate in an event rather than doing it when I choose to do so is not making me at all happy. It has sucked the fun right out of the event. (along with the constantly repeating quests, as others have already so eloquently mentioned in previous posts.) My tiny, newest cities are struggling along, still unable to do some of the quests (thanks for adding "or scout a province" to the gain 3 - 4 vision vapor ones. Personally it could have been something a bit tougher like "produce advanced tools 5 times" which would be closer to the amount of time it takes to produce 3 vision vapor but ok, I'll go with a 3 minute scout instead! :p) I certainly won't make it as far as in other Events... and I'm not going to knock myself out trying. It's simply not being enjoyable enough to bother.
 
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