• Dear forum visitor,

    It looks as though you have not registered for a forum account, or are not signed in. In order to participate in current discussions or create new threads, you will need to register for a forum account by clicking on the link below.

    Click here to register for a forum account!

    If you already have a forum account, you can simply click on the 'Log in' button at the top right of your forum screen.

    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Autumn Zodiac Event Feedback

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sir Squirrel

Well-Known Member
Adding to what I said previously...
  • I don't create shantytowns.
  • I don't come to the forums very often.
  • I don't have any super knowledgeable advisers in my FS.
  • I don't seek out, share, or make use of event quest sheets.
I do read some strategic tips here and there, yet don't necessarily use all of them.

None of this is intended to judge or feel superior toward those that do - they're simply facts about how I play.

With that said, I hold myself accountable for not keeping my buildings upgraded in a timely manner and jumping to Woodelves without thinking more about how it would impact my participation in this event, but I won't accept blame (which never solves anything) for the changes that were made. They aren't a result of how I've been playing.

It is because a lot did and some like yourself didn't, as to why it wasn't fair over all and needed changed ! My point was that the Dev's really didn't have a choice, but to try to change it to make things fair all around, not to place blame!
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
The Dev's didn't want to have to change the quests to random, that is a lot of work and I am sure they would have sooner left it the way it was. Really we only have ourselves to blame for that. We kept sharing the quest lists and completing the events in half the time we should have and that was not fair to those that don't frequent the forums (or gems of knowledge) or are not in a FS that has someone that would find the list and post it! Also by creating shanty towns with level 1 factories to finish quests that should have taken a day or so to complete we also brought on the change to only have factories and workshops at our current chapters level ! I for one am surprised it took them this long to change it because it was in fact gaming the system (or exploiting the game in other words)!
I disagree. You call it "gaming the system", I call it smart playing by the rules. Somehow you think that active/power players were somehow "unfair" to those who are not, and the new changes are supposed to make everyone equal again. Well, do you think the new rules close the gap? Despite a lot of noise, active/power players already adapted to a large degree, and keep gaining greater rewards than ever before (with multiples of top prizes which was not possible before). And all this is because, well, they are active/power players. Metagame changes (shift from massing L1 to focus on time boosters+MW+teleports), and the results become even more skewed.

I don't see how casual players, who often would run less efficient cities and hence are very tight on space, benefit under the new system which actually requires significant space commitment. Almost everyone was able to plunk a few extra temporary L1s. Not everyone is in a position to upgrade several expensive buildings to the max.
 

Sir Squirrel

Well-Known Member
MinMax, I didn't say it was the best fix, only that they had to try to come up with a better way to try to make it fairer. They will never find a way that will keep Power players from getting more (power/active players should get more then casual players as they are putting in more time and effort), it wasn't a fair playing ground as some had lists and could whip through quest and some didn't and we shouldn't be surprised they changed it is all ! You can't really tell me that having a list of upcoming quests for an event isn't cheating it is being a power player!
As for level 1 factories, it was a very unfair way to have an event setup, as those in-between chapters with space could own the event compared to someone in the middle of a chapter or a player with a smaller city and less space, not wrong or cheating, but very unfair and needed some balance for sure.. Edited to say again that I am not sure the way they changed it is the best way only that it really had to be changed to find a better/fairer way to do events. IMO anyway!
 
Last edited:

Maevie

Member
Really we only have ourselves to blame for that.

It is because a lot did and some like yourself didn't, as to why it wasn't fair over all and needed changed ! My point was that the Dev's really didn't have a choice, but to try to change it to make things fair all around, not to place blame!

The first part is why I said what I did about blame.

I think they need to reevaluate the random quest system as it doesn't seem to be working very well. I'm not concerned about the building Chapter requirements at this point, I'd just like to see more variety than there has been because I'm still getting what seems to be the same 4 or 5 quests too often. It's tedious and not very enjoyable.

I hope Inno will take that point into consideration when they feel a need to redesign something. They can try to make it fair all they want, I'm sure most of us support them in that endeavor, when the changes actually improve game-play and make it more fun. The design of this event is not what I'd call "fun", it feels more like a full-time job without pay.
 
Last edited:

kctanzen

Well-Known Member
With a finite amount of quests, careful research and paying attention to the information shared by players through various avenues (forums here, FB pages, elvengems and other websites) -- there was nothing game breaking about shanty towns. One either had the space to put a lot of things into play so as to be prepared for the various quests, stockpile event currency, and then target specific prizes / goals. Or one didn't and made do with the space they had, relying on other methods to gather event currency and the slot machine which event prize winnings have become.

Changing to an unending event task system, some type of throttling effect needed to be in place or any potential revenue stream from the event would likely have been nil or such a low return rate as to make it an ideal business decision. Unending quests could still follow patterns (I can't remember which one, I think it was Mermaid) did have somewhat of a pattern in that certain tasks always followed another one, but the primary order was a bit randomized. Memory is fuzzy, I'm sure others will chime in with corrections. The problem with that was that some players in exactly the right place of city development and game play were able to far exceed what the developers thought might happen. Extreme end of bell curve, but happened regardless.

I think a more reasonable approach might be to scale quest rewards based on the level of the buildings used to produce tools or goods while keeping a static amount in place for the scouting / encounter type quests (number of encounters scaled by chapter and adjusted to match up better with tourney / spire rounds). Plus, keeping a specific list of quests which would loop at some point.

Say for instance .. S & D and below, there would be no perceived penalty for a shanty town. (not yet flagged for buildings producing seeds)
Halflings+ might have a reduction by 20 to 40% of the currency reward if using buildings that weren't at the minimum of most recent researched for that type.
NOT specific to the chapter, but actually looking at the research tech box -- this would allow the potentially instant completed day long tasks (toolboxes for example) to be ready but not give a huge influx of currency.

I'm tired and looped out on meds, so this is probably just ramblings -- but I can't lie down for sleep at least 30 minutes after taking the meds, so I added this to the thread pile!!

Have a good night.
 

Maevie

Member
Ok change that line to this instead, as it was what I really meant to say. Sorry if any took that as a personal attack as it really wasn't.

Thank you for clarifying. No perception of personal attack on my end, I mainly just wanted to make my playing style and preferences a bit clearer (at least those that are relevant to the debate here) since I'm not very well known on the forums although I've been playing for a couple years now.
 

Vergazi

Well-Known Member
Just my 2 cents...

Somehow you think that active/power players were somehow "unfair" to those who are not, and the new changes are supposed to make everyone equal again.
this was to @Sir Squirrel a few posts back.

This seems to conflate "fair" with "equal" and I just don't buy that. These kind of silly misunderstandings is how wars get started...pointless ones at that. Can't we all just get along? ( and yes, I realise that I may be a bit of a hypocrite here, but still... )
 

Black watch

Well-Known Member
Well, it seems that leaving the thread doesn't prevent anyone from continuing their epic saga of making their case against someone. So, here it goes again. Wonderful. Great to see everyone.




You're quite far off the mark there, but we'll just let that slide. Honestly, you have no room to talk. We had a previous run-in in another thread where you, unprovoked and without any reason whatsoever, pretty much accused me of either lying or grossly exaggerating facts. That was our first interaction, and you were quite condescending, and I let it slide. The only difference here is that I simply didn't give you the same courtesy again. So don't you give me some line about how I consider myself above anyone.



Firstly, thank you. I do like to keep information very organized. Secondly, what you are referring to is when someone completely takes my comments out of context and relevance and throws it into another subject matter that I had no intention of discussing. If my dry wit comes across as little jabs, it's usually just me trying to be humourous, unless I'm dealing with someone who is repeatedly being obtuse and purposefully difficult.



Well, I have no control over people's thoughts. People think what they think. I'm generally not intentionally rude.



Yes.




Yeah, don't try to speak for me or imagine you know what I'm thinking. This isn't me being condescending, as you like to say. We're just not that familiar.



I can appreciate that. It is your prerogative to like or dislike my attitude, as we are all entitled to our own opinions, and I have not alluded otherwise at any point. But I will say, as clear as the tone of my posts are from my point of view, they still are misinterpreted. And I have to learn to be ok with that - that one is on me.



aww, little jab from you. Just when you were gonna wrap it up so nicely.



We really did have a nice walk. She's a sweet, grumpy old girl who's mostly blind, almost 14 years old now. But she seemed to be feeling pretty good. In more of a sweet mood than a grumpy mood - it's nice when I get to share those days with her. She makes me a little less grumpy, and a bit softer.



I never said we can't be pissed off.. It's the way we handle it that's the issue.






I have nothing to apologize for. I made a single post that was misquoted, taken out of context, off-topic, and attacked. I simply defended myself, and had to repeatedly. People get offended when their misguided indignant behaviour is brought to their attention. Remember, I'm not the one suggesting we bludgeon anyone. The only mistake I made was thinking I could make a post in this thread that didn't exactly align with everyone else's torch-and-pitchfork mentality against Inno. I am ready for this conversation to be over, but if you continue attacking me, I will continue defending myself.

Another run in? You make it sound quite dramatic, but for the life of me, I can't remember any post like that and "pretty much accused me of either lying or grossly exaggerating facts" soundsl a bit like you jumped to conclusions. When I accuse someone of something, I generally do so plainly. Your response right now is proof of that. I told you plainly that I thought you were being rude and condescending.
BUT Since I can't remember your post, OR mine, you have me at a disadvantage, so I'll just own it my part of it. I've apparently insulted, and provoked you sometime in the past, so I offer my apology to you.
I'm sorry if you took my post to be offensive. I generally don't do that, so perhaps I was having a bad day or perhaps I wrote my post in such a way that could be misconstrued. Either way, if you took offense, then I am responsible for that and I'm sorry I cause some irritation or distress in some way.

As for the rest of your latest post, your right, I don't know you. I never will personally know you, but that doesn't excuse the fact that you took my post (whatever it was) in a certain light that offended you. So yeah, I'm sorry for that.

As far as this goes, "Well, I have no control over people's thoughts. People think what they think. I'm generally not intentionally rude." These last few posts, from my point of view, I think the "generally" part went out the window.
Again, I speculate, but your posts could be rooted with my mysterious post from before that apparently started us off on the wrong foot. If that's the case, then again, I'm sorry it came to this.

I will point out so we are on a level playing field, I'm not the only one to put a little jab in there, AND be misquoted. "I'm not the one suggesting we bludgeon anyone" is incorrect. I was directing that to the business entity of INNO, as a corporation, not at an individual... but you knew that.
:)
For the rest of your post and the ones before, it's obvious to me, that we are like oil and water. You're way of communicating and mine are probably just to dissimilar to find any real common ground. We just approach things from different tangents to put it mildly and we both apparently find each other rude and annoying. Perhaps we are both quite far off the mark.
I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

We really did have a nice walk. She's a sweet, grumpy old girl who's mostly blind, almost 14 years old now. But she seemed to be feeling pretty good. In more of a sweet mood than a grumpy mood - it's nice when I get to share those days with her.
Those are the best days. It makes those memories special and grand.
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
You can't really tell me that having a list of upcoming quests for an event isn't cheating it is being a power player!
Not, it isn't cheating at all. The information was available to anyone who wanted to see it; it would be different if it only would be available by hacking the source code or having a buddy who works for Inno. It's just like with insider trading in securities - if someone trades on material information that is not available to the public that is against the law in most jurisdictions. But if you just didn't watch the news and was late to act on them, then it's on you.

And just to summarize the changes as it relates to "fairness". We went from a fixed list with limited rewards where power players could cruise to the finish line in a few days, but most people who tried would be able to get to similar result, albeit taking much more time to do so. Finishing early by couple of weeks has very limited benefit.

Now we have a system where power players will play the same amount of time as everyone else (full event), and in the process will gain a lot more rewards than everyone else, random quests or not. This has much higher impact than just finishing early (think multiple max evolving buildings vs just 1 or less). So I find the argument that this new system is somehow designed to be fairer to the casual players strange. If anything, it is fairer to the power players as they put in more effort and now can reap correspondingly higher rewards. I mean, I certainly don't mind, it works for me. But the great equalizer it ain't.
 

Black watch

Well-Known Member
Not, it isn't cheating at all. The information was available to anyone who wanted to see it; it would be different if it only would be available by hacking the source code or having a buddy who works for Inno. It's just like with insider trading in securities - if someone trades on material information that is not available to the public that is against the law in most jurisdictions. But if you just didn't watch the news and was late to act on them, then it's on you.

And just to summarize the changes as it relates to "fairness". We went from a fixed list with limited rewards where power players could cruise to the finish line in a few days, but most people who tried would be able to get to similar result, albeit taking much more time to do so. Finishing early by couple of weeks has very limited benefit.

Now we have a system where power players will play the same amount of time as everyone else (full event), and in the process will gain a lot more rewards than everyone else, random quests or not. This has much higher impact than just finishing early (think multiple max evolving buildings vs just 1 or less). So I find the argument that this new system is somehow designed to be fairer to the casual players strange. If anything, it is fairer to the power players as they put in more effort and now can reap correspondingly higher rewards. I mean, I certainly don't mind, it works for me. But the great equalizer it ain't.

I believe your logic is flawless. Well said!
 

Black watch

Well-Known Member
You're quite far off the mark there, but we'll just let that slide. Honestly, you have no room to talk. We had a previous run-in in another thread where you, unprovoked and without any reason whatsoever, pretty much accused me of either lying or grossly exaggerating facts. That was our first interaction, and you were quite condescending, and I let it slide. The only difference here is that I simply didn't give you the same courtesy again. So don't you give me some line about how I consider myself above anyone.

Okay, I had to look, it was bugging me that I caused pain in some form to another person. Is this the post you're referring to?
If it is, then I read your post and thought of MY experience with the pet food situation and INNO's decision to eliminate a bunch of the opportunities to craft it. This wasn't anything other than posting my first reaction to your post and thinking that's sure as hell isn't what's going on with MY crafting experience. I put an explanation into quotation marks of my words and thoughts as I read your post in envie and frustration with INNO. This wasn't a jab at you!
The second line is MY experience. Simply that with no reflection on YOU. MY situation at the time stunk on ice. Since then, I've changed my MA crafting clock after hearing you could do that and things have improved, but only a little... so I guess I'm still envious.
For someone careful to post, I think you missed the mark on this one.
I suppose if you just scanned the post quickly or for whatever reason just misunderstood where I was coming from, then I'll still apologize for it.
So, I'm sorry again.
I hope this clears up this bloody mess. :)

Pet your dog for me, (I like dogs and cats).

Screen Shot 2019-10-09 at 1.18.25 AM.png
 

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
I haven't seen anyone bring this up yet, so here goes: One side issue with the repeating quests is they can be confusing on mobile. This is because mobile doesn't give you any feedback after you press the button to complete an event quest. The only thing that happens (visually) is the quest changes to the next one. When the next quest is a repeat of the previous one, it makes it look like the quest simply reset rather than being completed.

This happened to me once when I got "7 relics" four times in a row; it really gave the illusion that my completions weren't "counting" and that the quest was simply resetting without rewarding me with anything. (It also gave the illusion that the quest line was "stuck".)

(Note that this is illusion only; I was getting the quest rewards, but you can't see it unless you manually take note of your before-and-after event currency.)
 

T6583

Well-Known Member
OK I have been reading this thread since it started and have held off on commenting too much until I had time to really think about what I wanted to say. First I would like to say that I do agree that they messed up with the randomness of the quests and do think they might have nerfed the amount of keys a little to hard and they should have had a few more different quests to help with getting the same quests over and over.
Now I am more than likely going to hurt some players feelings here so don't say I didn't warn you!
The Dev's didn't want to have to change the quests to random, that is a lot of work and I am sure they would have sooner left it the way it was. We ("We" being some players of the game, not saying all players or that I didn't use the lists) really cant blame the Dev's for wanting to make the events fairer. We kept sharing the quest lists and completing the events in half the time we should have and that was not fair to those that don't frequent the forums (or gems of knowledge) or are not in a FS that has someone that would find the list and post it! Also by creating shanty towns with level 1 factories and workshops to instantly finish quests that should have taken a day or so to complete, we also brought on the change to only have factories and workshops at our current chapters level ! I for one am surprised it took them this long to change it because having a list of the quests was in fact gaming the system (or exploiting the game in other words) and was for sure not how the Dev's intended us to play the game!
Next I want to say that the Dev's would never intentionally destroy or do any harm to the game that would cause it to no longer be played, as it is literally their job! It pays their mortgages, finances there vehicles and hopefully will put there kids through collage. They wouldn't intentionally jeopardize their job anymore than any of us would ours. So yes I believe they will strive to overcome the problems they are having with the quests for future events because there job depends on them doing so. We cant always see the bigger picture that the Dev's are looking at, but I am pretty sure it is aimed at keeping this game going, being enjoyed by many more players, keeping it making money and keeping events and the game as fair to everyone as they can!
Ok I am done you can all go back to what you were saying as this is just my view from the cheap seats.
I admit that this is very good insight. But one of the things the developers could have done to solve the problem of advanced quest lists is change the order of the quests between Beta and Live. I'm not a computer person so I have no idea how difficult this would even be to do at all but to me this would have been a much better solution to implement as composed to what we have now. I've already stated my opinion on the use of shanty towns so I won't go into that again. I'm just hoping that the developers do really take a look at things like you've suggested because while I can agree that they wouldn't intentially jeaopidize their jobs and we can't see the big picture from their end it sure feels like they don't care at the moment. Especially with the lack of communication.
 

Kataphractos

Well-Known Member
Actually, it's not even a handful. There are 23000 registered members, for a forum that is 52 months old. On average, there are over 400 people joining per month. And most of the fifty in this thread are not new members.

Sure, and in the span of geological time, we are all but mayflies and nothing about human existence matters. But I assume you aren't secretly Neil DeGrasse Tyson, so if we can all step off the HMS Well Actually for five minutes? ;)

Let me remind you how the sausage gets made. I'm not exactly spilling any industry secrets here; this is all standard mobile-game stuff. How it works is: 5% user retention after two weeks, plus-or-minus. (Roughly 10-15% for the real cornerstones of the industry -- your Minecrafts, your Candy Crushes -- but definitely within the single-digits, for the kind of games that InnoGames specializes in.) But don't take my word for it...just look at all the dead towns on your own world map. Does that look like 100% user retention to you?

So we've got 23,000 "registered users" -- but that doesn't necessarily mean we've got a community of 23,000 people. It's gonna be much smaller than that. Say, 5% or so? Now, my calculator tells me that 5% of 23,000 is 1,150. From a customer-service perspective, those 1,150 are the ones who matter: the other 21,850 forgot Elvenar even exists. And while 100 or 200 dissatisfied customers out of 23,000 would indeed be a drop in the bucket...100 or 200 out of 1,150 is a serious problem. Heck, that "clever shopkeeper" I mentioned a few posts back would consider even 52 out of 1,150 a serious problem.
 

DeletedUser19458

Guest
Regarding the "fairness" discussion ... before evolving buildings and endless quests everything was perfectly fair. Anyone of any level had potential to get 1 grand prize and that was it. It's a problem of their own making, and a solution that is (so far) even worse.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
So we've got 23,000 "registered users" -- but that doesn't necessarily mean we've got a community of 23,000 people. It's gonna be much smaller than that. Say, 5% or so? Now, my calculator tells me that 5% of 23,000 is 1,150. From a customer-service perspective, those 1,150 are the ones who matter: the other 21,850 forgot Elvenar even exists. And while 100 or 200 dissatisfied customers out of 23,000 would indeed be a drop in the bucket...100 or 200 out of 1,150 is a serious problem. Heck, that "clever shopkeeper" I mentioned a few posts back would consider even 52 out of 1,150 a serious problem.
You're missing the trees for the forest. I never drew any conclusions from the total number except that on average there are 400 people joining the forum per month. How many of them are still active a month later is irrelevant. From approximately 400 new people per month, I extrapolated that 50 new posters in a timely thread does not exactly imply a tidal wave of upset people. the 23,000 had no other significance to my comment.

Sure, and in the span of geological time, we are all but mayflies and nothing about human existence matters. But I assume you aren't secretly Neil DeGrasse Tyson, so if we can all step off the HMS Well Actually for five minutes? ;)
I'm familiar with belittling another poster in order to dismiss their argument via emotion. I rarely let people get away with it.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
This seems to conflate "fair" with "equal" and I just don't buy that.
Interestingly, I delivered a lecture once on the subject of how you can treat everyone fairly or you can treat everyone the same, but you can't do both. And even if you go to great lengths to treat everyone fairly, most won't agree with your definition of fair. It's why things like trade unions have no real choice but to treat everyone the same, regardless of how fair it is.

The specific examples I used was: You have two employees with identical education, experience and qualifications. One a 55 year old male living in a home his parents purchased and with a spouse who makes $100,000/year while the other is a 55 year old married woman who has to care for her severely disabled spouse who lives on a $5,000/year disability benefit and they are paying 20% of there income in rent every month. What decisions do you make if you want to treat them both "fairly?"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top