Autumn Zodiac Event Feedback

[Ashrem]

I have this sad feeling the programmers are using a broken, or pseudo, random call. We expect occasional odds-defying runs in a truly random set, but the sheer quantity of odds-defying results is hard to understand.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

We expect occasional odds-defying runs in a truly random set, but the sheer quantity of odds-defying results is hard to understand.

That's exactly it. Any single observation of a low-probability event can be attributed to this highly-improbable draw, and this indeed happens. But once you start seeing these low-probability events occurring over and over again, for multiple people, with different quests types, that brings into question underlying assumptions. And keep in mind how many of these events were reported by forum regulars and not new people popping up. We only have maybe a few dozen active posters, and many reported sequences that should be fairly infrequent. While many of those can be observed over tens or hundreds of thousands of players at large, the fact that so few people observed quite a lot is significant - unless we believe that forum poster population is somehow special.

 

[Ashrem]

And I, for one, have given up reporting when I get the same quest three times in a row since it's clear there's nothing to be gained.

 

[Alistaire]

I have this sad feeling the programmers are using a broken, or pseudo, random call. We expect occasional odds-defying runs in a truly random set, but the sheer quantity of odds-defying results is hard to understand.

fyi there is no such thing as true random with computers. There are, however, definitely better-quality algorithms out there, compared to whatever Inno is using.

 

[Ashrem]

fyi there is no such thing as true random with computers. There are, however, definitely better-quality algorithms out there, compared to whatever Inno is using.

At one time that was true, but most can manage it quite nicely new by incorporating some combination of external things like temperature and light sensors, mouse position or even network latency. If Inno is relying strictly on a clock chip, that's just lazy.

 

[Alistaire]

At one time that was true, but most can manage it quite nicely new by incorporating some combination of external things like temperature and light sensors, mouse position or even network latency. If Inno is relying strictly on a clock chip, that's just lazy.

But with how this event's gone, it's also likely.

 

[Ashrem]

I admire your optimism

There's optimism and there's whatever keeps us here.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Apparently Inno uses a different definition for "random"... just sayin'...

Their definition is simply randumb.

 

[DeletedUser3468]

...sigh... just when I though I was done with them, they're baaacck!

After finishing up my umpteenth produce a fair amount of planks, I got 2 different quests in a row; actual randomness!!! Both were short quests!!! (OK, admittedly one was the normally dreaded scout, research, VV one but for me it's still just a 10 minute scout.)

Now I'm back to produce a fair amount of planks. I should have known it was too good to last.
(but at least this time I have a lot more planks factories - many more than I would normally have put up at this point - and they're all leveled up to level 6 which is as high as I can go before they change to a 2x2 size, so it shouldn't take as many days to finish this time. So what if it means that when I finish my research for my T2 boosted good I won't have any room for a factory. It will just have to wait until I get another expansion - which won't take long if they decide to change me over to getting relics or doing encounters instead! )

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

At one time that was true, but most can manage it quite nicely new by incorporating some combination of external things like temperature and light sensors, mouse position or even network latency. If Inno is relying strictly on a clock chip, that's just lazy.

OK, this is a complete offtopic, but if you really want to know about random number generators, click below...

Spoiler: RNG trivia - here be dragons!

Data from many of external physical sensors are not entirely random either, at least not in the pure sense of that. Quantum mechanics stipulates that our whole reality is governed by randomness on the microscopic level, we just don't really see it on macro level. But there are some processes in nature that are truly random as far as we know and we can relatively easily observe them. One of them is radioactive decay, so one can make a true random generator using radioactive isotope and geiger counter. I kid you not

Here is online version of such true random number generator:
https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/
https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/hardware3.html

You can build one yourself:
https://hackaday.io/project/4628-nuclear-random-number-generator

And if you're in US, you can buy radioactive isotopes online with no requirements whatsoever:
http://www.unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_5

Having said that, modern pseudorandom RNG algorithms (e.g. Mersenne Twister) are more than sufficient for all practical reasons. While not truly random, they produce sequences that pass practically all conceivable randomness tests for any sequences of reasonable length.

There are, however, RNG algorithms that have known statistical flaws in their output, and even more so if parameters are not chosen carefully.

 

[Pheryll]

At one time that was true, but most can manage it quite nicely new by incorporating some combination of external things like temperature and light sensors, mouse position or even network latency. If Inno is relying strictly on a clock chip, that's just lazy.

With the patterns we have been seeing focusing on repeating the harder quests, I think that this is not at all an issue of laziness, but rather an intentional challenge. For example, even a poor learning AI can cause this behavior.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

There is no need to guess, probability theory and statistics have specific definitions and tests for randomness. Let's just say that if 3h WS quest has about 20% probability among WS quests (looks pretty close based on aggregate frequencies), then probability of rolling it randomly 6 out of 6 in a row is about 0.0064%. I mean, I am sure I am special - just not that special

LOL, this is getting hilarious. OK, 10 quests later and I get another WS quest. And what do you know? It is 3h production again. 7 out of 7 and still counting. Time to go all in on lottery tickets

With the patterns we have been seeing focusing on repeating the harder quests, I think that this is not at all an issue of laziness, but rather an intentional challenge. For example, even a poor learning AI can cause this behavior.

Yeah, straightforward RNG implementation for such a simple application is pretty hard to screw up. If one is trying to do adjustments to random order based on some algorithm, then you can easily end up with patterns similar to what we observed.

 

[T6583]

I hope that Inno does something to fix things. Since this event started I've now had 2 members of my FS quit the game. Both of them were higher level long time players. One just message me this morning that he was going to spend his keys and then leave the game. This is also the player who I previously mentioned had spent years working on particular strategy and has a playstyle that the new event style doesn't support with its new requirements. This was also a player who was very passionate about the game and loved events. I'm extremely sad to see him go. The other play quit within the 1st week of the event and privately told me that she didn't like the direction that Inno was taking things now. Was also sad to see her go as well. It's depressing to think about losing people I call friends due to some of these so called "changes for the better."

 

[Cheap Nag]

Personally, I think the changes to the events like random quests and level requirements for buildings achieved exactly what Inno wanted. People like me, who built lots of small manufactories/workshops and used the guides available on Gamers Gems to have quest items ready to harvest have been held back. They don't want people getting to 10 evolutions without paying diamonds to do so. After getting 10 or more on the last few events, I only made it to 8 this time. Mission accomplished!

I don't think it's too much to ask, however, that the quests be a tiny bit less random. Getting 2 of the same type twice in a row is very disheartening. You just plod through 45 tourney provinces just to find out you get to do it again! A no-immediate-repeat rule would be nice.

 

[T6583]

You've removed from us the element of individuality by forcing us to fit in one mould. So you've removed the effectiveness of our individual approaches to solving the eternal conundrum of lack of space, whether it be event buildings, Ancient Wonders, or Magic Workshops. Of course it's hardly the first time you've ruined the effectiveness of buildings like Ancient Wonders, so great work reopening old wounds to fester once more! What trust do you expect us to have, or place in you at this point?

It seems that this is definitely something that is bothering people. Especially with the new requirements for events. I just had a long time player in my FS who used to love this game, especially the events, message me this morning to say that he was leaving the game because the new changes are in direct opposition of his play style and he is no longer having fun in the game. He spent years working towards a particular goal he had, time with spreadsheets charting out the most efficient use of buildings and space comparing culture, population, and output. He relied mostly on AW's and event buildings for all his needs. Even enjoyed playing the Spire. He never posted cross teir trades either nor did he get more than one Phoenix fully upgraded or more than one mermaid building, etc. I'm very sad to see him go. This is now the 2nd player in my FS that has left since the start of this event. It's one thing to make some changes but to force people to play a game a certain way is another thing. For the record the changes didn't affect my play style but they greatly affected others. And to say that the changes make the events more accessible to new players I disagree with. My husband has a city in Chapter 2 and he gave up on the event because it was just too much for his little city to handle. His city in Chapter 4 was completely wiped clean of relics, CC's, troops, and goods trying to play the event so he gave up there as well. Only his Chapter 12 city is doing ok. My Chapter 14 city faired better than I expected. My Chapter 10 city got decimated with all of the relics, VV, scout, research, and complete encounter quests when it comes to troops, goods, and CC's despite producing all of those things around the clock and logging in 3-4 times a day. Events shouldn't cause harm to a city if a player wants to play them. This is the first event I've played that has actually set one of my cities back. I've already made the decision to not play the Halloween Event in both of my cities. So has my husband.

 

[GlamDoll]

So, on the login screen:

Welcome to Elvenar!
Elvenar is a free-to-play browser-based game, where you will build a flourishing city and discover a magical world full of mysteries.

Build up the most beautiful city and establish the most efficient economic system that you can! In Elvenar you can upgrade almost every building, improving the productivity and the look of your city.

Explore the vast World Map to acquire the knowledge of your wise ancestors and discover new technologies. Trade or fight over powerful Relics to boost your production.

You can either become a skilled and well-known trader, refine your producing art or lead your troops to victory in 3D-animated battles, the decision is up to you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree on how it can be the most beautiful city I can build (when I am no longer the one building my city).

I disagree with having the most efficient economic system that I can have (when I have to level up buildings AND build more than I need for game play).

Edit: I also disagree that the decision is up to me (It WAS, til this Event & new requirements & core mechanics changes).

The true nature of the problem is STILL not being grasped.

Agreed!

 

[Lyinaral]

I have been playing for over a year & this is the worst ran event I have even had, the mermaid one was ran better than this one, I have to agreed with the one that said they thought it was a cash drive event, trying to get people to spend cash to get more keys, the unreasonable amount of day long, the scout or research & the 11 relics back to back has made this the worst event Ever. I used to look forward to the next event, but not I am actually dreading it. I just got into Chapter 12 was in Chapter 11 when it started, can't even imagine what it is like for those above me. The lower levels might have it easier as they wouldn't have to have such high level T1 buildings & could possibly have more of them. INNO you have Disappointed me greatly !!!!

 

[T6583]

Just took this. I'm just gonna leave it right here to be sent on to Inno. I think it speaks for itself.

 

[qaccy]

Just took this. I'm just gonna leave it right here to be sent on to Inno. I think it speaks for itself.

That 'tip' is under the assumption that you're using roughly the same amount of space overall. It's also not given in the context of events or completing quests, but just gameplay in general. It could be argued that events are pretty much part of 'normal' gameplay now with how frequent they are, and definitely that the loading screen 'tips' don't really offer the best advice, but you also shouldn't be twisting them into saying something they were never trying to say in the first place.

 

[T6583]

That 'tip' is under the assumption that you're using roughly the same amount of space overall. It's also not given in the context of events or completing quests, but just gameplay in general. It could be argued that events are pretty much part of 'normal' gameplay now with how frequent they are, and definitely that the loading screen 'tips' don't really offer the best advice, but you also shouldn't be twisting them into saying something they were never trying to say in the first place.

It's more I look at it as that they seem to support the idea that there are different play styles and that people may choose to play with buildings that aren't leveled up all of the way. The recent event changes seem to not support people using smaller building types in their normal gameplay. I understand them not wanting people to set up the lvl 1 shanty towns but I know several players that leveled alot of their workshops or factories to only a certain point and didn't see the need to level them any higher due to other event buildings and AW's providing them what they needed (for the record I've always maxed out all of mine). Why provide a tip (even if some consider it a bad one) if there's no merit to it anymore? I have multiple members of my FS questioning this kind of stuff and feel that they are being forced to play a particular way now. I'm frustrated and a bit angry with how things have been over the past few weeks at this point. I've passed on the Elvenar response to the feedback. I've had members quit over the event. What am I supposed to tell them or reassure them when they see this kind of stuff?