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    Your Elvenar Team

AW Chain! What is your opinion on them and what is working for you?

DeletedUser5747

Guest
I am partial to the AW or KP chain that rolls on its own, no one telling anyone how much or when to donate.

The concept seems fair and no one need babysit it or tell ppl how to spend KP.

The concept is easy but players seem to make it difficult to understand.
Here is how it goes: The Chain states in the title the minimum of KP to donate say 5 it would read; AW Chain KP5 and the date started in the title.
Instruction of how it works: (and it does work, but few participate)
1. I note what AW I would like a donation of KP to be dropped by the next participant.
2. Once you donate, you place your name on the thread and what AW you would like a donation.
3. The next person comes along donates to you and denotes what AW they would like done by posting in the thread.... the chain goes on and on. (Simple right?)

I really like this, I learned this way from a guild that ranked in the top ten. (awe, good times) I like that NO ONE HAS to commit, you only get if you donate. You post as often or as little as you like when you can afford to donate. I don't find this complicated, but all of my guilds are learning guilds and seem to somehow mess it up or don't understand the idea at all, so many don't join in and are new enough that they don't realize the benefit of a chain. Up to this point I refuse to donate KP to designated list of players that may or may not stay let alone return the favor. My thought is, I may as well dump my own KP into my own AW's.

This is what I have proposed to all of my learning guilds. I find that most KP chains end up being the same three players and I am fine with that because I feel they are probably the same ones doing all the donating anyway.

So yesterday I handed over the control to a few mages that think they have a better way. I have been in other guilds and other ways so far that I have experienced don't seem fair and I find the same 3-6 ppl are feeding the whole guilds AW. Felstals are learning guilds and as a part of teaching, I am trying to mentor potential AMs. These ppl are my Mages and Ambassadors they are the ones who step up and go beyond with dedication and support of the guild.
See, in Festals, my mages have duties. First Class Mages are the ones who balance the books and are responsible for keeping the guild balanced in goods (we are boosted only), all recruiters and Ambassadors report to MFC. I have Mage of Festalian Order (MOFO) lol my fav. this person mentors new members and helps them understand our reasons for being boosted only and applying concepts in our overview. Noobs are given a plethora of tools and info, resources and tips and tricks to gain found quickly. Then there is the F-MOB Mages of Battle. They offer support for those who want to fight and provide tips, and resources.

So my questions to you all that are using a structure that might be similar to mine: what is working for you as an AW chian? Why do you like it? Is it "really" working? And, most important to me, is it fair?

Keep in mind I am a real stickler when it comes to being grateful and courteous to guild mates, and communication is the only way I know how to let online players know how I appreciate them, but they need to return the sentiment. I feel that most players are going to take advantage and stop donating if they aren't being accountable in a thread. Seems as there are no real AM tools in the game this is what I have got.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
In Beta we have a KP chain, and while it is simple and hassle free, I find it far too limiting. If you are techlocked and really need to dump KP then you end up just leveling your own wonder anyways. This especially happens when you get KP dumped on you at the end of a tournament, or when opening 50 eggs from an event.
Also, you end up with a bunch of partially leveled wonders, which is a bit of a waste.
Having 2 players with a GA at level 2.5 doesn't help as much as having a 2 and a 3.

On live we use a much more involved "KP Pool" system where 2 wonders are the "targets" at any given time until one is done, then the next one comes up.
Players donate any amount they want, at any time (including zero)
All donations are tracked, and based on your donate-received balance we choose the next wonder. It takes a bit to learn, and is obviously much higher maintenance than the zero effort of a KP chain, but it is very fast at leveling wonders.
We have full transparency as it's all recorded on a google sheet that anyone can view. Our FS also always gets 100% of the KP rewards, which are put back into the pool.

We adapted the template from our fellow @Mykan who I think adapted it from @Katwijk
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
really need to dump KP then you end up just leveling your own wonder anyways. This especially happens when you get KP dumped on you at the end of a tournament, or when opening 50 eggs from an event.
We have a standard rotating "I'm next after putting 5 into so-and-so," but for tournament KP, we always start a separate "I'll put all of mine into the person below me" which usually gets 3-8 participants every week.
 

DeletedUser4372

Guest
i like donating to who i feel like donating too. i do not want to have to " Write down" my name and what i want donated to next. i just donate and i seem to get donated back too. i do not really keep count either.. a loose count kind of, i try to give a little more than i get. just like trades, i offer 1,100 and ask for say 1,000. nothing great but i will not be one of those folks that offer 1,000 and ask for 995 to get the 3 star.. maybe i'm just lucky and in good fellows to drift through donating and being donated too? but then, i do have the patience of a Kung Fu Teacher :+)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Since we started the KP pool in November we have leveled 75 wonders for 13,540 KP and had 1,060 KP added to the pool from rewards. Not bad for a very mixed FS (we have players in chapter 1-9)
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
There are two fundamental problems with the chain approach.
  1. You're very limited on how much you CAN contribute, when you're tech locked. 15 per day is about it.
  2. You're very nearly begging for participants and outsiders to snipe the top few spots, by dumping in some extra points when the AW is about to level.
I was hoping that the current AW upgrade would include a history tab, so that we COULD track who contributed what once an AW levels, which we've always had in Forge of Empires, but it looks like the devs don't see it that way. If you're interested in a comprehensive analysis, check out https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/knowledge-point-clubs-an-analysis.1136/#post-7293
 

DeletedUser6335

Guest
The thing with the chains that boggles me is this - I don't have an AW down to donate to - yet when I donate no one knows I have (or what I have) unless they happen to be who I donated to (and they bother to look at the list of donations on the AW). And, as has been stated above, sometimes I don't have "x" number to donate. It'd be nice if they gave everyone who donated maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of what they donated upon completion (as well as the chests for "Top Donors")I know this will never happen, but a fish can dream and Elvenar has me dreaming lots! :)
 
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DeletedUser61

Guest
It'd be nice if they gave everyone who donated maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of what they donated upon completion
The KP rewards (10% of the amount for the level) are distributed 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, rounded down to the nearest 5 KPs.

If folks are encouraged to contribute UNEQUAL amounts, then everything works fine. The problems only arise when a naive Arch Mage encourages everybody to contribute a limited number of KPs to more than 5 Ancient Wonders.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
There are two fundamental problems with the chain approach.
  1. You're very limited on how much you CAN contribute, when you're tech locked. 15 per day is about it.
  2. You're very nearly begging for participants and outsiders to snipe the top few spots, by dumping in some extra points when the AW is about to level.
This is not true for us. The chain is there for those that want to use it, and those of us with extra KP often simply make a separate message between us, especially during tournaments or planning ahead for the next morning. if your FS restricts you from exchanging Kp outside of the chain, that seems like micro-managing.
 

nightrider1

Well-Known Member
This is not true for us. The chain is there for those that want to use it, and those of us with extra KP often simply make a separate message between us, especially during tournaments or planning ahead for the next morning. if your FS restricts you from exchanging Kp outside of the chain, that seems like micro-managing.
we do something similar the chain for everyday and additional offering in our chat this works well since those tech locked are always changing
 

Maz Mellor

Well-Known Member
Heh. In Mystique we have a voluntary 5 KP donation chain. It's very active; I'd say between 5 and 10 people make approximately 20 donations over the course of a day, and it isn't necessarily the same people every day. Some folks give more than 5 when they can/feel like it, to whomever they feel like—especially if someone needs topping up. But anyone who sticks to 5 KP know they're getting back at least what they're putting in.

I like this system. It's low-key and low-stress. Occasionally someone will accidentally foul up the chain, but it's easily fixed (I usually solve the problem by donating to both people and then letting the next person just donate 5 KP to me as usual). I definitely get more rewards (KP and shards) from other people's Wonders than I did before we had this system, and I like the cooperative/community-building aspect of it. As far as I know, my fellows are also happy with the system, even if it's a little more haphazard/less exact than other, more structured approaches.

From my perspective—and from a fellowship full of ambitious but mellow/friendly players who participate a lot—the 5 KP chain is rockin'!
 

DeletedUser5747

Guest
:cool:Thanks everyone for your opinions and input this gives me a lot of ways to mix it up and I let them choose the amount of the KP chains but they always go for 5+, most of them are over 10000 points already, we have a pretty low turnover in all five guilds. I really found all your info helpful. I am anxious to see what my mages put together and of course I will tweak it just a bit based on all this info, or I wouldn't be the AM. :p
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
So my questions to you all that are using a structure that might be similar to mine: what is working for you as an AW chian? Why do you like it? Is it "really" working? And, most important to me, is it fair?

The KP chain is pretty straightforward and not a lot of tweaking to it. Of course occassionally someone messes it up and the approach maz mentions is the approach i took as well.

Occasionally someone will accidentally foul up the chain, but it's easily fixed (I usually solve the problem by donating to both people and then letting the next person just donate 5 KP to me as usual).

I found the method very limiting and researched other options. @Katwijk post he linked above is a very good read. Time zones and tech lock were the biggest limiting issues we had with the KP thread. Our fellowship started a spreadsheet assisted pool and ran them at the same time as the KP thread but I found in 3 different fellowships the KP thread always "died a natural death" in favour of the other method. People preferred the freedom the spreadsheet option offered and those without wonders were able to participate as well.

I think the simplicity of the KP thread is a good place for a starter fellowship to begin. You just need to decide how to handle the mess ups as people learn.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I haven't seen any mess-ups that weren't self-corrected immediately. My policy is to post to the thread before I donate, then wait about 30 seconds to make sure someone else wasn't in the middle of composing, before I actually donate.
 

DeletedUser3696

Guest
I find the kp chain is great fun for team building and what not but it's not like you get anything extra out of it unless you make sure near the end you put in some extra to make sure you get the reward level you want, which means you are now at a kp defecit.

I prefer to pump 100% of the kp into the wonder of my choice until I'm about 100 kp away and announce it to the FS. Then those that want those specific runes or feel like helping out can have the chance and can choose just how much to donate. Once past level 5 I think 5+ can get rewards with 3+ getting runes. Almost always within 12 hours the AW is full and ready for upgrade. I then let everyone know how long until completion so they can try and not waste the kp reward (assuming they are offline and the reward puts them at 10 or more total kp).

I realize my preferred method is more selfish, but I believe it's the most fair without having much opportunity for players outside the FS to snipe rewards.
Plus, I'm not a big fan of contributing 5 kp at all when I'm not tech locked and being in the FS I'm in there isn't anybody with the wonders I still need runes for.
 

DeletedUser2509

Guest
We have an AW chain we use and it seems to work really well for us. This is how it works

Each FS member with a AW that they want added to the chain simply states which one they want added to the list. Each new list posted has a posting date "as of XX/XX.

AW Players List
Player 1 Sanctuary ---> Donate 5KP Here
Player 2 Mountain Hall
Player 3 Crystal Lighthouse
Ect....

Everyone in the FS who is on the list will donate to the first listed player 5 KP on a daily basis. When Player 1's AW is finished they are moved to the bottom of the list. It is their responsibility to keep the person who posts the list up to date on which AW will be donated to on their next go round. If for any reason their turn comes around and it is not possible to donate to them they are again moved to the bottom of the list. Only players who are on the list are required to donate. If you are not on the list it is optional.

Donating - We know now and then there will be issues that a player will miss a day here and there and hopefully can make it up however if a player repeatedly skips around, ceases donating or just doesn't seem willing to keep a give and take status quo they will be removed from the list. As stated at the beginning the list is optional so if you choose not to donate then you also choose not to be on the list.

There have been many times I have found this list to be an actual benefit to me when I am stuck in the tech tree and have no place to dump KP. I can start at the top of the list and dump 5 KP for that day and then the rest of my KP I can spread out on a pay ahead basis. This way when I know I am low on KP or I have a tech I need to finish off I have already paid in my fair share.
 

DeletedUser7769

Guest
My FS has a very active AW KP chain. I don't use it. I level my own AWs and when they get close I send out a msg that I'm going to level the AW and prizes are available if anybody wants them. Everybody seems happy.
 
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