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    Your Elvenar Team

AW society vs NetZero vs X...which is best for someone with no experience?

ElfGunn

Well-Known Member
All I know about these is what I've read here in the Forum. That said, the possibility of focusing the resources of the Fellowship, FS, to speed up AW upgrades and take advantage of all bonuses would seem to be an obvious choice.

The options I know of are:
AW society, a spreadsheet run by one person, who directs the others in the FS by in-game email. The spreadsheet is freely (?) available on Elvengems (?).
NetZero, run by all using in-game email or chat (I'm not sure which). Some structure and format.
Shout Out, run by all using in-game email or chat. Minimal structure or format.

I am still pretty much a newbie to Elvenar, and I have zero experience with any of these approaches. The leadership of my FS expressed an interest in this after I mentioned it in chat. They asked if I would run it, but I don't know enough to do so, or even make an informed choice.

Any advice you can give me would be much appreciated.
 

Deleted User - 3799863

Guest
My advice would be to go with NetZero. I've only heard about NetZero and ShoutOut recently from posts in the forum. NetZero seems easy to follow, achieves a fair return, and doesn't involve alot of rules. I have to read ShoutOut again, but it seemed fine when I read it.

My fs uses kp swaps which are very simple and requires the least management. KP swaps do not ensure a specific return to all members who participate, so the other methods have an advantage.

My only experience with the AW society was a disaster unfortunately. We had someone running the Society who knew it well and I was happy to just go along and participate while trying to understand all of the ins and outs. However, my fs, which was full of keen experienced daily players, lost almost half of its members when the AW Society was introduced. The process to explain how it worked caused so much distruption that players either left because the new method had too many rules and/or because of the disagreements between the person running the Society and people participating ruined the playing experience. It was a sad thing to go through when the fs seemed so strong.

Edit to add: Okay, I re-read ShoutOut and it isn't structured to ensure consistent return unless you add some rules (if that's what you wanted). ShoutOut is similar to KP Swap threads, but by using chat instead of email, the experience seems to be that many players in the fs participate.
 
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samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Warning! My wall of text for the day:D
I think the Net Zero is mathematically the best system, but I've never been in an FS that used it.
One of my FS's runs a Wonder Society spreadsheet. It is the one that requires the most work on the part of a few members and can be tough to explain to other members like @Crow Last Elf talked about.
While one person sets it up, there are mages who help with the upkeep(I'm not one of them). It's a lot of work on them, but very easy on the FS members. There's a link provided to all FS members so they can view the sheet; only sheet managers have editing privileges. Whoever updates the sheet posts a new message in the AW Targets*DoNotReply* message with new targets as well as permission to upgrade completed AW's. There are always 2 targets minimum; the secondary target is necessary in case the primary target member wants/needs to make donation. Putting kp into your own AW's is not a 'donation' and in fact reduces your contribution to the overall AW pool by the amount you put in your own. For us, the next few AW's that are coming up are listed as backups in the order they are rising. Our society is very active and this prevents us running out of places to put kp before the sheet managers can get the donations recorded and give the go-ahead to the member to upgrade a recorded AW. It also allows members to target soon to rise AW's for any runes they may need. It's extremely important members understand they can't upgrade until those donations are recorded and a sheet manager gives the go-ahead to upgrade. If they do and the upgrade is completed, there is no way to get that information back; if the upgrade has not completed they can cancel it and the donations will be viewable again.
Members just check the message, open the AW that is next up on the target list, make sure their donation won't cause any unclaimed reward chests, and donate. If they find an AW that's getting close to full and there are still chests left to be claimed, they usually post in chat 'JaneDoe's AW has 2 chests left and needs 15 kp' so members who have not donated can go in and donate a small amount to make sure the FS gets all the reward chests. If they complete the kp needed to upgrade a wonder, they post in the AW Updates & Upgrades message that the AW is ready to be recorded (wording is important to avoid confusing members new to the system by saying things like 'finished' and they mistakenly think that means they can upgrade).
One advantage to this system is a way for the FS to reward players based on their contributions to FS activities like daily visits and tourney participation. Again, more work for the sheet managers, but points (kp) can be added to a player's 'balance' for activities that are tracked. Ex: 10pts for 6 visits/wk; 20 pts for 7 visits/wk. Can also do things like: 10pts for every 100 tourney points over the minimum, 10pts for completing the first floor of Spire, 20 pts for completing 2nd floor of Spire. I'm sure there are other possibilities I haven't thought of, too.

My other FS works off round-robin AWKP swap messages. We have 5 messages; one each for 5, 10, 15, 20 and 30kp. This does create an issue with other messages quickly getting pushed to p2, but we've learned to live with it. Members open the message for the amount they want to donate and note the last member to post and which AW they want donations to go into. They then post they are donating to that player and note which AW they want the next person to donate kp to.
Example: Sami goes in and posts: '5 to JaneDoe; GA for me, please'. The next person will post '5 to Sami, ToS for me, please'. This way everyone gets back the same amount of kp they donate, they just get it from the next player posting. Depending on who's participating at any given time, it's possible to end up with unclaimed chests, but we just usually post in chat if we see that our AW is getting close to full and there are chests still available. The players who are the most active in the swap threads get more of the rewards than those who are less active. The only issue I've seen come up with this system is if 2 members post msgs at the same time. Best practice is to post the message, close it, then re-open to verify before going to the AW and making the donation. Still, it happens that 2 players end up donating to the same AW (sometimes folks are time limited/moving fast and just forget to double check), but it usually gets worked out in chat since they're both on at the same time. At times, these msgs get too long and load slowly(~100 or so msgs), so someone needs to close out the old msg(with a 'Do Not Use, New Msg Starting) and open a new one. Anyone can do this, but usually a Mage that is very active in the swap takes the lead in doing it.
 

Deleted User - 1178646

Guest
All I know about these is what I've read here in the Forum. That said, the possibility of focusing the resources of the Fellowship, FS, to speed up AW upgrades and take advantage of all bonuses would seem to be an obvious choice.

The options I know of are:
AW society, a spreadsheet run by one person, who directs the others in the FS by in-game email. The spreadsheet is freely (?) available on Elvengems (?).
NetZero, run by all using in-game email or chat (I'm not sure which). Some structure and format.
Shout Out, run by all using in-game email or chat. Minimal structure or format.

I am still pretty much a newbie to Elvenar, and I have zero experience with any of these approaches. The leadership of my FS expressed an interest in this after I mentioned it in chat. They asked if I would run it, but I don't know enough to do so, or even make an informed choice.

Any advice you can give me would be much appreciated.

If I had to start today without the legacy and rusted behavior of current members absolutely NetZero.
The perfect thing is that netzero can easily exists next to other systems, so thats what we do now, very very very very very slowly people now see the benefits of such a system and slowly trying to test the waters.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
As someone who has helped record the KP donated to around 10,000 wonders across 3 servers I'm definitely over the traditional WS.
Obviously, since NetZero is kinda my little brain baby I'm super biased but I really do think that it has the best outcome: effort ratio of all systems.
 

ElfGunn

Well-Known Member
As someone who has helped record the KP donated to around 10,000 wonders across 3 servers I'm definitely over the traditional WS.
Obviously, since NetZero is kinda my little brain baby I'm super biased but I really do think that it has the best outcome: effort ratio of all systems.

Soggy...are the NetZero rules posted somewhere? I'm leaning towards NetZero now, but I'd like to study the official version before recommending it to my leadership.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
NetZero
Requirements:

  • At least 8 players who are part of it logging in each day
  • Each player needs a stash of ~50-100 KP in instants that will be tied up in the system
Basic idea:
Each player has one of their own wonders that they are working on at the same time. Players reserve chests in those wonders for zero profit by donating lending the exact amount that the chests give as rewards.

How it works:
  1. A player announces in the NetZero message thread "I'm doing my Golden Abyss next"
  2. [Optional] Fill your wonder 50% before announcing it.
  3. As players log in and see the message they visit the GA and reserve the topmost available reward chest
  4. The player who reserves the final 5 KP reward chest posts in the thread "Chests done" so that others don't waste time checking.
  5. The owner of that GA fills it at their own pace.
Your wonder needs 500 KP to fill
A: Donates 30 gets 30 from chest 100% return
B: Donates 25 gets 25 from chest 100% return
C: Donates 20 gets 20 from chest 100% return
D: Donates 10 gets 10 from chest 100% return
E: Donates 5 gets 5 from chest 100% return
You: Donates 400 to self, gets 500 KP wonder filled 125% return

Troubleshooting:
Sometimes a mistake can happen where two players both try and reserve the same chest at the same time. If this happens, the wonder owner can simply reimburse the player who has now overpaid by overpaying the same amount on their next wonder.
E.G.
  1. The top chest in my wonder has 40 KP in rewards, and the second has 30 KP.
  2. Dave and Jim each donate 40 with Dave getting the top spot.
  3. Since Jim has now paid 40 for the 30 KP chest he is owed 10 KP.
  4. He then tells me that he will be working on his [ToS] wonder after his current one is full.
  5. I go to his [ToS] wonder and grab the top 45 KP spot but I overpay with 55 KP to balance us out.
 
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Mykan

Oh Wise One
Putting kp into your own AW's is not a 'donation' and in fact reduces your contribution to the overall AW pool by the amount you put in your own.
That is not a wonder society and actually defeats one of the goals of a society. I refer to such methods as a kp pool or spreadsheet assisted pool. They are similar to a wonder society but different. Same with those which don't share the KP.

Netzero is basically self-levelling except those helping to top-off the wonder actually understand the wonder mechanics and how to get the best return. There are some downsides as mentioned in the OP but every method has drawbacks.

Either of those systems (in the OP) are easily the 2 best methods and neither actually competes with each other and can be run simultaneously. Our fs has done this for years as some people just prefer to drop KP in their own wonder. Personally if you have someone who can run the wonder society I would do that as the amount of automation saves a lot of time in recording wonders and a basic user needs nothing more than "drop KP here" as an explanation. In worlds were I dont have a society I do the self level/net-zero method.
 

The Fairy

Scroll-Keeper, Buddy Fan Club Member
The perfect thing is that netzero can easily exists next to other systems, so thats what we do now, very very very very very slowly people now see the benefits of such a system and slowly trying to test the waters.

We currently do a combination of kp swap threads and shout outs. Can we combine these with netzero? I would imagine it would be confusing to have both netzero and shout outs, since in one you donate what the chest is worth and in the other you donate less?
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I liked Soggy's Net Zero post so I thought I'd use the same format. Thanks, Soggy!

Fast Shout Out
Requirements:

  • Each player needs a stash of ~7-1 KP that will be tied up in the system for a very short time
  • The owner has to hold off on putting any KP on the AW before announcing the FSO (and it can be at zero when it starts)
  • The owner has to save up ALL the KP needed before issuing the FSO.
Basic idea:
A player has one of their own wonders that they wish to upgrade. They have the KP to do so on hand and the AW is at 0. Once they have the KP on hand to finish the whole thing, they can post the FSO.

How it works:
  1. A player announces in the chat or message thread "FSO [name of AW]"
  2. As players log in and see the message they visit the AW and put in KP. The amount is set by the number of unclaimed chests, so it descends from a maximum of no more than ~7. This reserves that chest for that player.
  3. The player who reserves the final 5 KP reward chest by contributing 1 KP. Posts in the thread "[Name of AW], done" "so that others don't waste time checking."
  4. The owner of that AW fills it ASAP to prevent non fellowship members from grabbing cheap chests.
Example:
Your wonder needs 500 KP to fill. That's the total amount and you have 500KP on hand to fill it.
A: Donates 5 gets 30 from chest 600% return
B: Donates 4 gets 25 from chest 625% return
C: Donates 3 gets 20 from chest 667% return
D: Donates 2 gets 10 from chest 500% return
E: Donates 1 gets 5 from chest 500% return
You: Donates 485 to self, gets 500 KP wonder and approximately 1% return

Troubleshooting:
"Sometimes a mistake can happen where two players both try and reserve the same chest at the same time." Not a problem in FSO because the system automatically bumps the second player down one chest and, the amounts are so small and the profit to the contributor so high they really have little to complain about.

Sometimes, if the owner isn't fast enough some enterprising and lucky non-fellowship member might stumble in and grab a cheap chest. In which case each player would make less. Instead of 625%, in the above example, the player would make only %500. Sigh.

In essence, it seems to me, FSO is the same as net zero with a few basic changes:

1) The amount of KP needed by the contributers is so low that the investment can be made by all players.
2) The turn around is, by rules, kept to less than 24 hours and often within an hour.
3) The profit to the players is huge AND if all participate, the fellowship profits more than 20% since the investment is so low per AW (15 or so KP for 90 KP in return.

So, I'm wondering if the net zero and FSO are really the same thing with different requirements and different outcomes. Both are triggered by the posting of the AW owner, both say what the amounts to be given are, and both assume players want to contribute to their fellow members.

AJ
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
@The Fairy
We have both Net Zero and shout outs in the FS I'm in that uses NetZero. NetZero is limited to the NetZero target message thread. Shout outs are limited to chat. Players who don't participate in NetZero post up a msg in chat 'Not in NetZero, chests available on my [name of AW]; upgrading soon'. Then players claim the chests as they like. The player who claims the last chest posts in chat 'All chests taken on Sami's GA'.

I don't know how you'd combine swap threads with NetZero, though. My other FS is more like yours with swap threads and shout outs. I don't see us changing that in the foreseeable future.
 

The Fairy

Scroll-Keeper, Buddy Fan Club Member
We have both Net Zero and shout outs in the FS I'm in that uses NetZero. NetZero is limited to the NetZero target message thread. Shout outs are limited to chat. Players who don't participate in NetZero post up a msg in chat 'Not in NetZero, chests available on my [name of AW]; upgrading soon'. Then players claim the chests as they like. The player who claims the last chest posts in chat 'All chests taken on Sami's GA'.

Thanks, I thought it would be confusing to combine those as players donate differently. In NetZero they must donate what the chest is worth and in ShoutOuts they donate less.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
While one person sets it up, there are mages who help with the upkeep(I'm not one of them). It's a lot of work on them, but very easy on the FS members.
I am one of the people that run the wonder society for my FS. Overall, the group def prefers it over swap threads since it's so easy for them, esp if they don't have to maintain the spreadsheet themselves. We voted as a group that donations to your own wonders do not count and reward chests count to your KP credit. Now we don't care who gets the reward chests. You can bump anyone off or not even care you didn't get one. Everything moves so much faster. It's also more fair for the little cities this way. Enrollment is also completely optional so no one is forced to join. We def didn't encounter what @Crow Last Elf experienced when adopting this system.

Our wonders are definitely getting built much much faster than in my FSs that don't use the system. The GAs in our little cities are getting up there. Some are already over lvl 15. This will help the overall FS when they start unlocking Needles and Monastery/Sanctuary to help them fight better. Also, there are always those players in every FS that never talk and keep to themselves. I've never seen them use swap threads in all the FSs I've been in, but they are as active as anyone else in a wonder society system, silently dropping KPs at their own pace.

There are downsides. You do have to wait to make sure the wonders are logged before upgrading your wonders, but the spreadsheet gets updated at the end of each day so the longest you have to wait is a day. If someone starts the upgrade before it's logged and we catch them, we get them to cancel. Sometimes that is not possible and you lose the KPs. That's basically it, but just as telling everyone to stay on green during FA, not everyone is capable of listening. You get a warning and then repeat offenders are withdrawn from wonder society.

Ideally, I think it works best in small clusters with players you trust most.
 

Laochra

Well-Known Member
This sounds very similar to the 1.9 swap on FoE. They have a website link where you input your specifics for your AWs (Great Buildings-GBs) & it tells you how many Forge Points (their version of KP) you have to add to lock in the reward spots. The higher the level, the more you have to put in. I'm still in the lower levels, but I have to put in over 100 FP before I can post my Arc in the 1.9 thread.
I always thought in Elvenar that it was wasteful to put your KP in your own AWs, because it takes away possible rewards from others who are giving & you get nothing for it, other than upgrading to the next level. Has this changed & I didn't notice? {very much possible}
 

Katwick

Cartographer
I always thought in Elvenar that it was wasteful to put your KP in your own AWs, because it takes away possible rewards from others who are giving & you get nothing for it, other than upgrading to the next level. Has this changed & I didn't notice? {very much possible}
NetZero focuses on exactly this issue.
  • The Owner accumulates enough AW Instants to cover 80% of research for their next level
  • Then announces "Reward Chests for 20 15 10 5 5 5, plus 3 Runes, may be claimed in my Golden Abyss, which is ready to level."
  • As the rewarded AW KPs Instants are always 20% of the research KPs, LOANING the Owner some of your AW Instants, for 24 hours, gives the Owner a 20% discount on leveling KPs. Hence NetZero.
  • Significantly, the smaller cities, which desperately need the Runes, now have a shot at them rather than always being swamped by players who are merely exchanging massive amounts of AW Instants.
 
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Killy-

Well-Known Member
I always thought in Elvenar that it was wasteful to put your KP in your own AWs, because it takes away possible rewards from others who are giving & you get nothing for it, other than upgrading to the next level. Has this changed & I didn't notice? {very much possible}
Well that is kinda true if you want to maximize your own profit, but if you are interested in a more fair system for the whole fellowship, than the maximum profit is reached as long all chests are claimed. There are different systems out there - while some are better than others, somehow the worse systems are still surviving. :p
 
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