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    Your Elvenar Team

Building values

Vigali

Active Member
Hi all,

Per a discussion in FS chat today, I was wondering if people could fill me in a bit more on how building values are generally calculated, because I'm wondering if I had been doing it wrong. Here's the example:

(All values are Chapter 12, Lava Codex used as culture requirement)

Orcish Float: 3x4, +2500 pop, +3300 culture
Standard Residence: 4x4, +2800 pop/ -1149 culture
Magic Residence: 4x4, +4900 pop, -1350 culture
Goblin Gift Shop: 3x3, +2900 pop, +640 culture

I made the argument that Orcish float was quite a bit better than a standard residence, but quite a bit worse than a magic residence -- and also, that it was substantially worse than Goblin Gift Shop.

Orcish Float: 2500 pop / 12 squares = 208 pop/sq
Standard Residence: 2800 pop / 19.5 squares (16 bldg sqs, 2 road sqs, 1.5 culture sqs) = 144 pop/sq
Magic Residence: 4900 pop / 19.8 squares (16 bldg sqs, 2 road sqs, 1.8 culture sqs) = 248 pop/sq
Goblin Gift Shop: 2900 pop / 9 squares = 322 pop/sq

From that, it seemed obvious -- Orcish Float is better than a standard residence, worse than a magic residence, and worse than the gift shop. But then I realized that it wasn't fully factoring in the culture gained. If we add squares to the Residences based on the culture requirements, shouldn't I be subtracting squares from the Orcish Float/Goblin Gift Shop because of the culture they provide? If so, you get:

Orcish Float: 2500 pop / 12 squares - ((3300/3000)*4) = 2500 pop / 7.6 squares = 329 pop/sq
Goblin Gift Shop: 2900 pop / 9 squares - ((640/3000)*4) = 2900 pop / 8.15 squares = 355 pop/sq

With those numbers, Orcish Float looks to be nearly on par with Goblin Gift Shop, and superior to a Magic Residence. Do people usually factor in culture this way, or is it factored in differently?
 

NightshadeCS

Well-Known Member
With the pop hybrid buildings, most people lean heavily on the pop per square. This is because coins have relatively low value, so you can indeed directly replace a residence with a pop/cul hybrid event building with few repercussions.

Culture can be gained in so many other ways, that it is definitely a secondary consideration.

All this being said, I do maintain my own spreadsheets for the buildings in my cities. I include the culture per square, population per square, and then a Cul+Pop per square value. This way, I can sort by the various factors depending on what my city is most in need of at the time.
 

Vigali

Active Member
All this being said, I do maintain my own spreadsheets for the buildings in my cities. I include the culture per square, population per square, and then a Cul+Pop per square value. This way, I can sort by the various factors depending on what my city is most in need of at the time.

I do the same -- what I'm getting at here, though, is I'm trying to find the most accurate way to fully calculate and quantify "population per square" In the case of Pop+Culture buildings.

When we calculate population per square for Residences, for instance, we take into account not just the building squares, but the required road squares, and the culture requirements. Residences produce population, but they cost culture, and that culture costs squares. We even (when we're getting really specific) factor in the culture provided by the roads that connect the residence, as that helps offset the Residence's overall culture requirement.

When I see people do pop/sq calculations for Pop+Culture buildings, however, I don't often see the culture they provide being factored back in to the population/sq calculation. I know I haven't ever done that until today, and that seems wrong; if we "add squares" to a regular residence for the culture required to place it, then shouldn't we "subtract squares" from the Pop+Culture building based on the culture it's providing?
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I'm trying to find the most accurate way to fully calculate and quantify "population per square" In the case of Pop+Culture buildings.
You're right with all of your calculations and reasoning, just missing 3 things as far as I can see:
1. Culture from roads is missing in calculations
These can be factored in easily enough except for #3 below​
2. Residences produce coins while hybrids do not.
The value of coins is going to be quite situational but perhaps on a case-by-case basis could be factored in. Essentially a culture bonus provides more coins (and supplies) so there are tipping points where increasing culture provides more coins than increasing coin-producing residences does.​
2b. Supplies.
If you go so deep as to try and place a value on coins, then the next step would be to compare supplies and the impact of culture on them. Just like coins, there are tipping points where adding culture actually gives you more than adding workshops. This means a culture = workshops formula is possible.​
The most significant tipping point for either calculation is when you go from 100% culture to 125%.​
3. Culture has a cap as well as diminishing returns.
If your city already hits 170% before visits then adding more culture has a value of exactly zero while the culture cost of residences also goes away making them more attractive.​
Hitting 125% has the greatest impact with an obvious 25% increase in coins and supplies.​
Going to 150% from 125% is not another 25% increase though but rather a 20% jump (150/125 = 1.2)​
The changes from 150 to 160 and 160 to 170 do even less for you at 6.7% and 6.3% each.​
And finally, visit buffs play an important role in culture utility.​
E.G. There is no point in having 170% "natural" culture if your fellows always give you enough additional culture boost to get you there from natural 150%​
Personally, I wouldn't bother with #2 or 2b since they change so rapidly as you progress.
I also generally ignore the culture cost of residences allowing it to offset the coin production.
Keeping an eye on #3 is important though.
 
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Vigali

Active Member
Very much appreciated, thank you!

It seems like #3 is the one that throws wrenches all over the place, and what makes it extremely difficult to spreadsheet this out -- because while the 3300 culture from Orcish Float may be 'worth' 4.4 squares (compared to a Lava Codex), the actual marginal value of that culture is fully dependent on my current culture total. As you mentioned, if my current culture total is either naturally above 170%, or just always there by virtue of FS visits, then the marginal value of the Orcish Float's 3300 culture might actually be worth 0 squares.

That probably explains why most of the time when I see folks give pop/sq values for Pop+Culture buildings, they generally don't seem to subtract the square value of the culture provided by the building then, right?
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
That probably explains why most of the time when I see folks give pop/sq values for Pop+Culture buildings, they generally don't seem to subtract the square value of the culture provided by the building then, right?
Yup. Once you got the hybrid route you are basically guaranteed max culture so calculations become quite simple.
 
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