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    Your Elvenar Team

Cauldron using Ingredients rather than Recipes

Cabernay

Member
I put together a cheat sheet for the cauldron. If you are fighting in the spire / tournament / etc. this combination will be useful. I don't use recipes. I use ingredients. Recipes tend to, and can, use up a lot of diamonds if you are not careful. This way will use 25 diamonds at the most, or none.

I wrote this up for my fellowship. You are welcome to see. Let me know if you notice any mistakes. There may be a better way, but this does work.

If you want another buff, you will need different ingredients and I have a complicated spreadsheet that shows which buffs prefer which ingredients.

 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
The thing is, whatever ingredients you use you are building a recipe. Recipes take ingredients and since you don't specify what you are trying to brew it's hard to not come out with something, even if there might be something better if you were willing to follow a recipe. In my opinion, in the example the results were dismal. I'm pretty sure there are recipes that would have given you ten times the power of the effect you got. And that's why the "recipe approach" is so important.

I think most players want the Cauldron to produce a specific effect or effects at the highest levels possible. Some will choose to use diamonds, some not. By focusing on the ingredients you are not, as you note, creating a recipe, but a randomized effect.

Here's how a "no diamond" recipe approach might work. First, determine what effect you want to brew. Some effects you will be able to brew without diamonds some weeks, but not all weeks. So if you don't want to use diamonds you need to figure out which effects are powerful enough to make without diamonds. For instance, without diamonds I found the Mercenary Mayhem, was pretty weak last week, but the Monster Mayhem was much, much better. So the first task is to find out which of the strongest effects use only ingredients that don't need diamonds for that week. Those are the diamond free recipes.

After you figure out which recipes give you the best return for the week you can pick one of them and follow the recipe. Once you've entered the ingredients in the proper order, you can then drink up and the effect or effects will, well, take effect.

All of which is to say that if you don't wish to use diamonds, or perhaps, not a lot of them, you need to be careful to choose recipes that are both effective and diamond free, and since diamonds change, that list will change each week too, forcing you to perhaps also change which effects you use for the week.

Finally,
 

Cabernay

Member
The thing is, whatever ingredients you use you are building a recipe. Recipes take ingredients and since you don't specify what you are trying to brew it's hard to not come out with something, even if there might be something better if you were willing to follow a recipe. In my opinion, in the example the results were dismal. I'm pretty sure there are recipes that would have given you ten times the power of the effect you got. And that's why the "recipe approach" is so important.

I think most players want the Cauldron to produce a specific effect or effects at the highest levels possible. Some will choose to use diamonds, some not. By focusing on the ingredients you are not, as you note, creating a recipe, but a randomized effect.

Here's how a "no diamond" recipe approach might work. First, determine what effect you want to brew. Some effects you will be able to brew without diamonds some weeks, but not all weeks. So if you don't want to use diamonds you need to figure out which effects are powerful enough to make without diamonds. For instance, without diamonds I found the Mercenary Mayhem, was pretty weak last week, but the Monster Mayhem was much, much better. So the first task is to find out which of the strongest effects use only ingredients that don't need diamonds for that week. Those are the diamond free recipes.

After you figure out which recipes give you the best return for the week you can pick one of them and follow the recipe. Once you've entered the ingredients in the proper order, you can then drink up and the effect or effects will, well, take effect.

All of which is to say that if you don't wish to use diamonds, or perhaps, not a lot of them, you need to be careful to choose recipes that are both effective and diamond free, and since diamonds change, that list will change each week too, forcing you to perhaps also change which effects you use for the week.

Finally,

I did focus on one buff. ""To make this simple, we are going to focus on three ingredients that will buff the troops in your barracks.""

Recipes tell you how much of each ingredient to add. If you don't have enough witchpoints, or if the ingredient uses diamonds, it's going to cost you.

Did you read the document?
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I did focus on one buff. ""To make this simple, we are going to focus on three ingredients that will buff the troops in your barracks.""

Recipes tell you how much of each ingredient to add. If you don't have enough witchpoints, or if the ingredient uses diamonds, it's going to cost you.

Did you read the document?
I didn't read it closely enough to recognize what you meant by "will buff the troops in your barracks," and that was my fault. I didn't make the connection. But still, if you are focusing on a particular buff you have to use the right ingredients. So it's not a focus on ingredients, per se, but which are needed for that buff, and in what order they should be entered. Ingredients + procedure = recipe, in my book.

The results you show in your method seemed, to me, to be abysmal for the witch points you have available. You show you got a 21.9% chance of triggering that buff. With 7366 witch points, about what I have, I got a 40% chance that week without using any diamonds! So while your method does give your fs a chance at improving their barracks troops performance, it falls way short of what they could have had.

In the end you recipe is not close to optimal. The optimal recipe has, each week, to be discovered to some degree, especially if you don't wish to spend your diamonds. Silly Bubbles spreadsheet works well for that, provided you are willing to move to a different buff when the one you want uses diamonds or has a poor result when you don't wish to use diamonds. And that's my point. By feeding a recipe to your fs they can use to manage one particular buff you are probably short changing them in the long run because they are not using the Cauldron nearly as well as they could.

What I would recommend is you download Silly Bubbles Cauldron spreadsheet, enter your witch points, and other data, then turn off the diamonds. Select your first choice buff. Look at what it does to your chances. If none of the chances are 8.7% that buff isn't going to be the strongest for the week. (This is not a statistical observation but one from experience so it may not be 100% accurate. Each week I use it to find which of the military buffs is going to be strongest.) Once I find the strongest buff for the week I follow the instructions and have fun. Usually, in the end, I end up with a 30-40% boost in that particular military for from anywhere from 24 to 44 hours. I, of course, have spent a lot of resources boosting those buffs so you may not get as high a level.

AJ
 

Cabernay

Member
I have a step by step with pictures... cheat sheet for people who are not sure where or what to click in the cauldron. I never said it was perfect, just that it works. And it is easy to follow. Even with a step by step sheet, players get frustrated. As I said, this is made to be easy to follow.

This was my last buff. Along with two others.



cauldron.jpg


I have never heard of your bubble spreadsheet. I will check it out.
 

Katwick

Cartographer
Just 03_SB Strength Barracks

The RNG gods picked Mana Shell this week, in the Beta World, which paves the way for WHY focusing on a single effect, regardless, is a pretty bad idea.

There are 25 Recipes in the data set at Just 03_SB.

The first couple of trials, address a suggested strategy of just using a couple of Ingredients, and always focusing on Strength Barracks. Bad idea. Using a variety of Ingredients is ALWAYS cheaper.
  • 03_SB focus with 2 Ingredient Types (no Diamonds)
  • 03_SB focus with 3 Ingredient Types (uses Diamonds)
  • 03_SB focus with 8 Ingredient Types (no Diamonds)
  • 03_SB focus with 8 Ingredient Types (no Diamonds, but also no constraint on "the best" Effect, and 03_SB fails badly)
  • 03_SB focus with 12 Ingredient Types (uses Diamonds)
03_SB Fail.png
 

Smooper

Well-Known Member
Just 03_SB Strength Barracks

The RNG gods picked Mana Shell this week, in the Beta World, which paves the way for WHY focusing on a single effect, regardless, is a pretty bad idea.

There are 25 Recipes in the data set at Just 03_SB.

The first couple of trials, address a suggested strategy of just using a couple of Ingredients, and always focusing on Strength Barracks. Bad idea. Using a variety of Ingredients is ALWAYS cheaper.
  • 03_SB focus with 2 Ingredient Types (no Diamonds)
  • 03_SB focus with 3 Ingredient Types (uses Diamonds)
  • 03_SB focus with 8 Ingredient Types (no Diamonds)
  • 03_SB focus with 8 Ingredient Types (no Diamonds, but also no constraint on "the best" Effect, and 03_SB fails badly)
  • 03_SB focus with 12 Ingredient Types (uses Diamonds)
View attachment 15734
What if your strategy was to use just one type of bonus with no diamonds? You wouldn't get to do the bonus very often but the problem is if you want to use the most cost effective bonus each week you will have to boost many types of bonuses in the second phase. Is it better to just boost one bonus as often as you can or boost multiple bonuses so that you have more choices albeit with lesser rewards.
 

Katwick

Cartographer
Use JUST ONE Diamond Ingredient Type
What if your strategy was to use just one type of bonus with no diamonds? You wouldn't get to do the bonus very often but the problem is if you want to use the most cost effective bonus each week you will have to boost many types of bonuses in the second phase. Is it better to just boost one bonus as often as you can or boost multiple bonuses so that you have more choices albeit with lesser rewards.
My recommendation is to only allow ONE Diamond Ingredient to be used, and push it hard.

At the end of time, once you've studied everything and don't really care which boosts you get, the lowest Witch Points Only cost will always be 4 + 7*3 = 25 Ingredients. If you're using the Solver, you can get there by selecting a few desirable Effects, and just use the Lower Cost, Modest Success option. That will yield a 100% Success Rate that honors your preferences, at the lowest possible cost, without using Diamonds.

The problem with chasing a single buffed Effect, without using Diamonds, is that it's going to cost you 16,000 or so Witch Points, OR ELSE your Total % Success Rate will be so low that you'll get nothing at all most of the time.

For a low to mid-level player, simply Brewing ONE Ingredient of each TYPE, 8 non-Diamond singles is a good strategy. It will cost you 572 Witch Points and will get you up to almost a 60% Success Rate Sqrt(9/25) = 3/5 = 60%, then take whatever you get. You're using just one of each Ingredient Type anyway so the order doesn't matter, and you can back out any ingredient that isn't interesting. Carry the remaining Witch Points into the Studying phase.

If you're willing to spend a few diamonds, or if you want to use buffs that you can't cover with just Witch Points, then the strategy flips. You'd want to select a single Effect that was covered by Diamonds, JUST ONE of the four THREES that will cost you diamonds, and allow the Solver to find an EXPENSIVE, HIGH SUCCESS recipe. Your Diamonds will then cover the Ingredient Type with the HIGHEST amount, your actual Witch Point expenditures will be greatly reduced, and you'll have some Witch Points to carry into the Study phase.

Either approach serves it's purpose, but for general use my personal preference is to
  • Jump on the most attractive of the Diamond related ingredients, select that effect, and check JUST THAT one Use Diamonds box
    • DO NOT check the other three Use Diamonds boxes (Allow 9 Ingredient Types to be used.)
  • Based on the results of a trial run that allowed all 12 Ingredient Types, select 3 or 4 "wouldn't mind them either effects" that are NOT covered by Diamonds
  • Use the Expensive High Success Rate approach, which will favor your selected Effects
  • The yield will be the highest Total Success Rate that you can afford, and the fill in ingredients won't be bad either.
Preferred 9 Ingredient Types.png

Ctrl PLUS will zoom the image, or you can always download a copy of the current spreadsheet from Katwick Cauldrons > Production.

A trial run suggests that 05_T2 Trader's Refined is a good choice for our 9th (Diamond) Ingredient Type this week (in the Beta World), and we'll select a few other useful Ingredient Types that fared well in our trial, to enhance their Success Rates.
Preferred 9 Ingredient Types Brewery.png

The Optimum Ingredient mix for the Week (The Diamonds are from the Beta World) knocks off 12 Ingredients (16382 Witch Points) for 300 Diamonds, and leaves a comfortable 2359 balance of Witch Points.
Note also that 12 Beetlenut contributed to the Recipe, even though its natural partner, 06_T3 didn't make the cut.
Preferred 9 Ingredient Types KP Breakout.png
The most to least breakout for the Witch Points makes it pretty clear what's going on. We're allowing a SINGLE Diamond Ingredient to be used, and we're pushing it hard.

The top two Success Rates, in the image to the right, are BOTH over 33%, so we'll probably get a desirable Boost when we drink the Potion.
Preferred 9 Ingredient Types Success.png

But there's a conceptual trap that you need to avoid. The Highest Amount is only the THIRD best % Success Rate, in this recipe which is pretty typical. That behavior is VERY hard to visualize unless you're familiar with how the Brew Pot and Solver actually behave.
I'm well past thinking that there are going to be any One Size Fits Most recipes. The best recipes, each week, are WAY better than the also rans.

TargetActualRateWPs$$Dpl##111213142122232431323334____Date____Title_with_an_optional_screenshot_Link,_or_perhaps_a_HoneyDew_List.
Multiple19_A138.63%2359300202503000126000402023-05-21Preferred 9 Types 11_13_21_22 With D 25
 
Last edited:

Silly Bubbles

You cant pop them all
Just 03_SB Strength Barracks

The RNG gods picked Mana Shell this week, in the Beta World, which paves the way for WHY focusing on a single effect, regardless, is a pretty bad idea.

There are 25 Recipes in the data set at Just 03_SB.

The first couple of trials, address a suggested strategy of just using a couple of Ingredients, and always focusing on Strength Barracks. Bad idea. Using a variety of Ingredients is ALWAYS cheaper.
  • 03_SB focus with 2 Ingredient Types (no Diamonds)
  • 03_SB focus with 3 Ingredient Types (uses Diamonds)
  • 03_SB focus with 8 Ingredient Types (no Diamonds)
  • 03_SB focus with 8 Ingredient Types (no Diamonds, but also no constraint on "the best" Effect, and 03_SB fails badly)
  • 03_SB focus with 12 Ingredient Types (uses Diamonds)
View attachment 15734


I'm just wondering if you could share the actual results of your strategies. It would be great. :)
 

Silly Bubbles

You cant pop them all
I put together a cheat sheet for the cauldron. If you are fighting in the spire / tournament / etc. this combination will be useful. I don't use recipes. I use ingredients. Recipes tend to, and can, use up a lot of diamonds if you are not careful. This way will use 25 diamonds at the most, or none.

I wrote this up for my fellowship. You are welcome to see. Let me know if you notice any mistakes. There may be a better way, but this does work.

If you want another buff, you will need different ingredients and I have a complicated spreadsheet that shows which buffs prefer which ingredients.


I just did a probabilities calculation of your recipe. Your chance of getting Monsters' Morale is 56%, Generals' Mayhem 39%, one or the other 77%, and getting both 10%. The fail rate is 34%. This might help to decide how much to invest in it.
 

Cabernay

Member
I just did a probabilities calculation of your recipe. Your chance of getting Monsters' Morale is 56%, Generals' Mayhem 39%, one or the other 77%, and getting both 10%. The fail rate is 34%. This might help to decide how much to invest in it.
My way is better than not at all. Which is what many people end up with after they can't figure out a spreadsheet.

You have made it more than clear your way is better. What more do you want? Fireworks?
 

Silly Bubbles

You cant pop them all
My way is better than not at all. Which is what many people end up with after they can't figure out a spreadsheet.

You have made it more than clear your way is better. What more do you want? Fireworks?

Sorry, it wasn't meant to upset you, I just tried to help. Obviously, I failed miserably. :D

There is no need to use spreadsheet to get good results, I did a very similar strategy to yours here. There is not even a need to use Solver, I stopped using it and get the same results if not better in a shorter time. Spreadsheets can make it easier but they're not needed to use Cauldron well. If you aim for one effect, it's completely fine to use your strategy. Here's a list of ingredients for other effects if you're interested.

And yes, there is a need to show that it can be done easy way.
 
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