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    Your Elvenar Team

Cauldrons 101

Katwick

Cartographer
I've got the Google Sheets Solver working, and I'm getting some interesting results. My standard recipe format will be changing to the following, for each Diploma Level aka Effect. The model works the same whether you use Witch Points or Diamonds, and I'll eventually add an occasional Non-Diamond recipe when the weekly selection straddles the Standard Recipe. If the Brewery Numbers are matching the Katwick Modeling numbers, then I'll post the Link for the current Early Beta version of my Google Sheet.

My preferred approach, once I'm satisfied that my model is handling Witch Points, will be to run the numbers as if you could buy all of the Herbs, each week, with Witch Points, and the do a second pass where we say,
  • "WOW, 150 Diamond are worth a Gazillion Witch Points this week!" or
  • The Diamonds are mostly on junk Herbs for the stuff that I want, so I'll just ignore them this week.
This week my focus is on verifying my model, so I'll be running everything at 10 Diplomas, where I can directly verify the model numbers. But henceforth I'll be posting 4 Recipes for Effect ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, .... 10 checked against the Brewery, 11, 12, tuned for a User who is new to that level. For more advanced users, with more Diplomas, the peak won't be quite as sharp, but It will still be a useful recipe.
  • N Diplomas Weekly, which is a 14 Herb recipe that covers 4 POSITIVE Values with a 5432 pattern.
  • N Diplomas Weekly Optimized, wherein we see what the Solver comes up with for 14 Herbs
  • N Diplomas Factored, which is a 21 Herb recipe that covers the same 4 Positive Values but adds two POSITIVE Factors, with a 654321 pattern.
  • N Diplomas Factored and Optimized, wherein we see what the Solver comes up with for 21 Herbs.
So far we've discovered two Database anomalies, which we can demonstrate by introducing the same anomaly into the model:
  • 9 Orcs vs. 31 Eye Sprouts has a -1 Factors where there should be a -1 Value
  • 6 T3 vs. 34 Ear Truffle has a -2 Value that should be a -1 Value
10 Diplomas All In - Katwick 2023C14a.png


We can live with these for a while, until we've had an opportunity to make a more exhaustive analysis.

10 Diplomas All In - Brewery - Katwick 2023C14.png


10 Diplomas All In - Brewery Model - Katwick 2023C14.png


I just noticed that we're modeling an extra 6.22% of 01_C_, so there's probably another break in the pattern, which is precisely what this series of Tests/Recipes/Posts is all about.

10 Diplomas All In - Herbs - Katwick 2023C14.png


The green bordered block is what we'll be using in forum posts, for the most part, as it has everything that you need to Brew a recipe, in a properly sorted order.
 
Last edited:

Katwick

Cartographer
This post is a quick and dirty look at a validation recipe, which is what we used to corner the two Recipe Space anomalies. It's also useful if you've accidently clobbered your spreadsheet, and have to figure out what you messed up.
  • Cell E18 has a -2, rather than the patterned -1 (like the cell to the diagonal up/left) at the intersection of
    • 6 T3 Trader's Precious Goods
    • 34 Ear Truffle
    • Note that the Ingredients are associated with the Effect that has a +3 on the main diagonal in the Recipe Space
  • Cell K15 has a -1 in the Factoring column, rather than the patterned -1 in the Value column
    • 9 OR Orcs
    • 31 Eye Sprouts
In my next few post I'll be doing a rigorous analysis of how Factoring and the Solver all hang together.

If squinting doesn't work, use Ctrl + or -, or a Two Fingered Stretch, to ZOOM the window.
10 Diplomas All In - Katwick 2023C14a.png

The Recipe Space is well ordered. We SHOULD be getting the same %_Success Rate for every Ingredient. But we can replicate the behavior of the Brewery by introducing two typos/bugs into the Recipe Model.

In our example the Ingredient Amounts are all the same, so the Effects SHOULD all be the same, but they're NOT. Hence the typo/bug, which we can live with indefinitely. We might even use it to sneak in a few extra Orcs.
This is the same information, stripped down for forum posts,
it's sorted by:
  1. Ingredient Amount
  2. Percent Success Rate
  3. Effect Name
10 Diplomas All In - Herbs - Katwick 2023C14.png
10 Diplomas All In - Brewery - Katwick 2023C14.png
10 Diplomas All In - Brewery Model - Katwick 2023C14.png

This sort is for the convenient validation of the Model. There's no additional information. We've introduced the same anomalies into the Model, and we're matching the results that are presented by the Brewery. DO NOTE that the last item in the Brewery List is T3 NOT Coins! It seems that the Brewery only Scrolls the first 9 Effects (and who knows what the Devs are using for Effect Names.) That's not particularly bad, because someone with 20 Diplomas would probably ignore the inconsequential "also rans" in any case.
 

Katwick

Cartographer
If you want to follow along, you can access, or even copy, a recent Google Sheet at
Cauldrons 101 Window Dressing Early Beta - Katwick 2023C13

The Recipe Space is VERY SYMMETRICAL
If you ever want to have fun designing Cauldron Recipes, you'll need to have a good feel for how the Recipe Space is structured. The astonishing reward will be an understanding of HOW to use the SAME recipe in 12 different locations, and get IDENTICAL % Success Rate results EXCEPT that the Effect Names shift just a bit, 12 times, until you're back to where you started from.

You'll also understand how UNEARNED Diplomas make things far more interesting, as do "Not Fresh This Week" aka Diamond Ingredients.

Ingredient Vectors (Herbs)
EVERY Ingredient has an equal value and an identical 12 cell structure, Each group of 12 cells has 4 Positive Values, 3 Negative Values, 3 Positive Factors, and 2 Negative Factors. We've used a double column presentation for convenience, but there are only 12 attributes in each Ingredient Vector.

The Recipe Space includes 12 STAGGERED Vectors. We'll get into it later, but in cells 1-12 the attributes are adjacent, while in cells 13-24 the attributes are in Odd cells then Even cells. We'll present an example, and then talk about it some more.

The ESSENTIAL notion is that EVERYTHING affects EVERYTHING, and that EVERYTHING sees the SAME local environment. The Names rotate, the structure doesn't. Here's a simple example.
123456789ABCD___________
_123456789ABCD__________
__123456789ABCD_________
___123456789ABCD_________
____123456789ABCD_________
_____123456789ABCD_________
______123456789ABCD_________
_______123456789ABCD_________
________123456789ABCD_________
_________123456789ABCD_________
__________123456789ABCD_________
___________123456789ABCD_________
____________123456789ABCD_________


The EXTREMELY IMPORTANT concept is the VERTICAL Vector that's in a 22 pt font. The last cell of of the 1st vector, stagger, .... stagger, and the first cell of the 12th vector (the vertical vectors) are IDENTICAL to the horizontal vectors. The 12x12 parallelogram tessellates (wraps around in both directions). so EVERY vertical slice will match EVERY horizontal slice, with 12 one cell offsets, rinse and repeat.

Jumping ahead, each Herb (a horizontal vector) influences each Effect (a vertical vector.) You can run, but you can't hide. Perhaps surprisingly, we can resequence the vector attributes, and everything still works just fine. Most folks don't care about what they won't be able to do any time soon anyway, so while EARNED DIPLOMAS would be the obvious sequence for everyday use, the symmetry of the strong diagonal makes the HOW TOs and WHYs FAR more obvious, and that''s what these posts are all about.

10 Diplomas Values and Factors - Katwick 2023C14.png

If squinting isn't enough, use Ctrl +/-, or a Two Fingered Stretch, to ZOOM in.

OBSERVE the 3s on the main diagonal. From ANY 3 you can go LEFT or DOWN and you'll get an identical vector (lacking a few bugs).
We use the 3's intersections to define the PRIMARY Effect for Each Ingredient

Here's How It Works!
  1. Range AL7:AL18 As you add Ingredients, the count is Summed in AL19
    • Range AK7:AK18 is formatted for Short Date (Mar-14)but any non-blank value will do just as well,
      to indicate which ingredients are Diamond Only this week.
  2. Range A19:AI19 The STAGGERED Horizontal Vector Attributes, the vertical Effect Values and Factors vector,
    are summed (Range A19:AI19)
  3. Range A21:AH21is tricky. If the Effect VALUE is Greater Than Zero, it is AMPLIFIED or REDUCED by the Effect Factor
    • The formula is Modified Effect = Summed Effect * 1.1^ Summed Factor (so 10% per factor, compounded)
    • Note that the Factor CAN be negative, which REDUCES the Modified Effect, which is a really nice way to step on the competition
  4. Cell AK20is SQRT(N/25) where N is the total number of Ingredients
    • SQRT(1/25) = 1/5 or 20% for a single Ingredients
    • SQRT (25/25) = 1 or 100% for 25 Ingredients
    • All of your % Success Rates are going to be squeezed into this space. The more Ingredients you add, the less difference they will make, individually
  5. RANGE AM7:AM18 The Brewery Effects is simple SCALING. It's the SQRT(N/25) divided by the Sum of the Factors. So whatever you got will show up as a portion of 100% if you've added 25 ingredients, your total % Success Rate will always be 100%. If you use fewer ingredients, the Bridge Troll will (randomly) drink your Brew.
It doesn't really make any difference how far you are from the competition, or if they even exist. It's simple addition for the Vertical Effect Vector. My earlier fascination with 7/7 was a simple scaling artifact. It's true, but it's not at all important. The scaling occurs after all the decisions have been made.

So What's the POINT??
  • Use Green Cell to INCREASE your chances
  • Use Red Cells to DECREASE your competitor's chances (it's a shared space)
  • There are "only" 144 combination that you need to consider
    • Plus another 9*12=108 combinations if you have more than 12 Diplomas
    • Minus 4/12 = 1/3rd of the combinations, unless you're willing to spend some Diamonds, because it's a DIFFERENT 4 each week.
So THAT'S why the next series of post will be about using a SOLVER, which does all of the grunt work.
 
Last edited:

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
If you want to follow along, you can access, or even copy, recent Google Sheet at
Cauldrons 101 Window Dressing Early Beta - Katwick 2023C14

The Recipe Space is VERY SYMMETRICAL
If you ever want to have fun designing Cauldron Recipes, you'll need to have a good feel for how the Recipe Space is structured. The astonishing reward will be an understanding of HOW to use the SAME recipe in 12 different locations, and get IDENTICAL % Success Rate results EXCEPT that the Effect Names shift just a bit, 12 times, until you're back to where you started from.

You'll also understand how UNEARNED Diplomas make things far more interesting, as do "Not Fresh This Week" aka Diamond Ingredients.

Ingredient Vectors (Herbs)
EVERY Ingredient has an equal value and an identical 12 cell structure, Each group of 12 cells has 4 Positive Values, 3 Negative Values, 3 Positive Factors, and 2 Negative Factors. We've used a double column presentation for convenience, but there are only 12 attributes in each Ingredient Vector.

The Recipe Space includes 12 STAGGERED Vectors. We'll get into it later, but in cells 1-12 the attributes are adjacent, while in cells 13-24 the attributes are in Odd cells then Even cells. We'll present an example, and then talk about it some more.

The ESSENTIAL notion is that EVERYTHING affects EVERYTHING, and that EVERYTHING sees the SAME local environment. The Names rotate, the structure doesn't. Here's a simple example.
123456789ABCD___________
_123456789ABCD__________
__123456789ABCD_________
___123456789ABCD_________
____123456789ABCD_________
_____123456789ABCD_________
______123456789ABCD_________
_______123456789ABCD_________
________123456789ABCD_________
_________123456789ABCD_________
__________123456789ABCD_________
___________123456789ABCD_________
____________123456789ABCD_________


The EXTREMELY IMPORTANT concept is the VERTICAL Vector that's in a 22 pt font. The last cell of of the 1st vector, stagger, .... stagger, and the first cell of the 12th vector (the vertical vectors) are IDENTICAL to the horizontal vectors. The 12x12 parallelogram tessellates (wraps around in both directions). so EVERY vertical slice will match EVERY horizontal slice, with 12 one cell offsets, rinse and repeat.
Jumping ahead, Each Herb (a horizontal vector) influences Each Effect (a vertical vector.) You can run, but you can't hide. Perhaps surprisingly, we can resequence the vector attributes, and everything still works just fine. Most folks don't care about what they won't be able to do any time soon anyway, so while EARNED DIPLOMAS would be the obvious sequence for everyday use, the symmetry of the strong diagonal makes the HOW TOs and WHYs FAR more obvious, and that''s what these posts are all about.

View attachment 15090
If squinting isn't enough, use Ctrl +/-, or a Two Fingered Stretch, to ZOOM in.

OBSERVE the 3s on the main diagonal. From ANY 3 you can go LEFT or DOWN and you'll get an identical vector (lacking a few bugs).
We use the 3's intersections to define the PRIMARY Effect for Each Ingredient

Here's How It Works!
  1. Range AL7:AL18As you add Ingredients, the count is Summed in AL19
    • Range AK7:AK18 is formatted for Short Date (Mar-14) but any non-blank value will do just as well
  2. Range A19:AI19 The STAGGERED Horizontal Vector Attributes, the vertical Effect Values and Factors vector, are summed (Range A19:AI19)
  3. Range A20:
Thanks for all the work you have put into this but it is all Greek to most players. If you audience is the Math Gurus on the Forum then you have hit a home run! But this in no way resembles "Cauldron 101".
 
Last edited:

Katwick

Cartographer
blinkers-to-laugh-about.png


But far better, as understanding this stuff is the entire point, there are very few simple solutions to complex problems.
Understand.png
 
Last edited:

Katwick

Cartographer
SOLVERS
Briefly stated, here's how a Solver works:
  • The user sets an objective. In our case we want to MAXIMIZE one or more effects
  • The user indicates what can be varied to obtain that effect, which in our case is the addition of Herbs
  • The user sets some constraints, which in our case (the skinny picture in the first row) is
    • not less than zero of any single ingredient
    • not more than six of any single ingredient
    • not more than 21 (or 14 or whatever) total ingredients
    • Once I'm finished with the Witch Point module that constraint could be added as well
    • If you want a solution that avoids the use of Diamonds, you could constrain the related Ingredients to 0
  • The Solver then tries a bunch of RANDOM input combinations, and then (this is where the Mathematicians earn their keep) comes up with a curve (some sort of equation) that kinda fits the data.
  • They then do a Spline Fit for R^2 Errors, which is just a fancy way of saying that the squeakiest wheels get greased first, by adjusting the curve so that it more closely matches the observed data
  • Once the worst of the Errors are pushed below a target amount, the program spits out the best (most recent) INPUT condition.
  • For us, that means that we've determined the best combination of Herb Amounts for punching up the Effect that we're trying to maximize.
A couple of posts ago, at How it Works, we detailed how everything gets glued together, one Ingredient at a time. While there are a few obvious recipes, for the most part there are simply too many moving parts to work it out in your head. Fortunately, computer SOLVERS are quite adept at grinding through a gazillion possibilities, and coming up with the best of the bunch.
If squinting isn't enough, use Ctrl +/-, or a two-fingered Stretch, to ZOOM your display.
10 Diplomas Values and Factors - Katwick 2023C14.png

This is the solution space.
  1. Green Cells are good, use as many as you can
  2. Red Cells are bad, stack them on the competitors in your shared Recipe Space
You're encouraged to download a recent, Early Beta copy of my Google Sheet. It's at Cauldrons 101 Window Dressing Early Beta - Katwick 2023C13.
The stuff next to the SOLVER, is the scratch pad for setting up the Solver.

(A horizontal scroll will get you to the last column in this table.)
Cauldrons 101 Solver - Katwick 2023C14.png

___________________________
10 Diplomas Weekly - Katwick 2023C14.png

This is an obvious, 14 Ingredient manual recipe that hits all of the GREEN Values for a particular Effect, using a 5432 pattern. It gets us to 35.83%, but leaves a strong competitor at 19.20%.
Over the next few weeks I'll be introducing the Witch Point constraints as well, but even then my inclination is to show how much you GET for your Gold, and buy off the Brewmaster.

10 Diplomas Weekly Optimized - Katrwick 2023C13.png

Using the same restraints, Max 10_GM Mana with not more than 14 ingredients, the Solver comes up with a 44222 recipe that gets us up to 52.43% and just as important, suppresses the other candidates. We have a 2 out of 3 chance of beating the Troll and a 9 out of 10 chance of beating the other Effects.
10 Diplomas Weekly Optimized - Katwick 2023C14.png

And everything checks out. Now go back and trace how the RED Cells are stepping on the Competition.
10 Diplomas Factored - Katwick 2023C14.png

This is a straight forward 21 Ingredient recipe that's similar to the previous recipe, BUT we've added 7 factoring ingredients so the pattern is now 654321, and the Probable Success Rate is up to 46.11%, the Troll only gets 8.35%, there's one competitor at 13.94% and a handful of also rans below 5%.
10 Diplomas Factored and Optimized - Katwick 2023C14.png

Using the same constraints, the Solver switched a very few Ingredients, and cames up with 2 chances out of 3, and the three competitors are a 10th of that. Not bad at all.
10 Diplomas Factored and Optimized Brewery - Katwick 2023C14.png

And the Brewery agrees that we're right on the money.

So let's look at that last recipe:
  • Three fewer 13 Mana Shells, which was our "Best" Factoring Ingredient
  • One less 31 Eye Sprouts, which was our 2nd best Value
  • Dumped all three of our 32 Bitterhair Leaf, which was kinda meh anyway
  • ADDED four 33 Cottoncloud Bud, because it steps on FOUR of our Competitors, while helping us just a bit
  • Dumped the 14 Flying Iris, which was only for Factoring anyway
The MARVELOUS concept is that you can use this recipe for all TWELVE Effects, by simply shifting it to the new position.
 
Last edited:

Lemon Wren

Well-Known Member
I applaud your time and effort on this, but personally I feel like I need a Ph.D in Elvenar Quantum Mechanics to understand this.

It's basically a non-functioning option for most of the casual guilds I play in, as no one can seem to grasp the concept or feel like it's worth the effort or goods to make it worthwhile. I simply periodically come to the forums to see if anyone has come up with a simple explanation for how it works OR an official announcement that it will undergo changes to make it easier to take advantage of. (The one pedal to the metal gold spire guild I belong to definitely has some players using the Cauldron, but in my experience across several FS's those folks are a distinct minority, it seems.)
 

The Fairy

Scroll-Keeper, Buddy Fan Club Member
I applaud your time and effort on this, but personally I feel like I need a Ph.D in Elvenar Quantum Mechanics to understand this.

It's basically a non-functioning option for most of the casual guilds I play in, as no one can seem to grasp the concept or feel like it's worth the effort or goods to make it worthwhile. I simply periodically come to the forums to see if anyone has come up with a simple explanation for how it works OR an official announcement that it will undergo changes to make it easier to take advantage of. (The one pedal to the metal gold spire guild I belong to definitely has some players using the Cauldron, but in my experience across several FS's those folks are a distinct minority, it seems.)

I feel many are over-complicating the cauldron, it really isn't necessary with all this math to use the cauldron! And I fear all this math scares many away from using the cauldron, which I think is a shame:(

On the other hand I don't think ready-made recipes are available (maybe unless you don't care about diamonds) as the available ingredients vary from week to week and from world to world. So I see two possibilities:
* Use a spreadsheet like the one Karvest on the beta forum has made to calculate your recipe every week
* Spend a little time learning how to choose the ingredients (like learning to pick troops for auto-fight or learning to cater in spire)

I (and several others I know that are using the cauldron) am using a table that shows which ingredients that helps increase/decrease the different effects. I use that table to guide me in picking ingredients. I have described it in this post (which also contains a link to Karvest's spreadsheet):

I can try simplifying that description if needed, or are you looking for information about how the rest of the cauldron works?
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
I feel many are over-complicating the cauldron, it really isn't necessary with all this math to use the cauldron! And I fear all this math scares many away from using the cauldron, which I think is a shame:(

On the other hand I don't think ready-made recipes are available (maybe unless you don't care about diamonds) as the available ingredients vary from week to week and from world to world. So I see two possibilities:
* Use a spreadsheet like the one Karvest on the beta forum has made to calculate your recipe every week
* Spend a little time learning how to choose the ingredients (like learning to pick troops for auto-fight or learning to cater in spire)

I (and several others I know that are using the cauldron) am using a table that shows which ingredients that helps increase/decrease the different effects. I use that table to guide me in picking ingredients. I have described it in this post (which also contains a link to Karvest's spreadsheet):

I can try simplifying that description if needed, or are you looking for information about how the rest of the cauldron works?
Yes, please simplify anything you can, I agree that all this High Math is scaring players away from the Cauldron! Many feel like they need a PhD to figure it out!
 

Lemon Wren

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your reply! Having just done a fresh run through the Cauldron to refresh my memory on what my issues are with it:

1. Obviously the randomness of the recipes/ingredients. I just am not going to use a spreadsheet. I need to use them in my actual day job and it's literally the worst part of an otherwise great job so there's no way I'm using one in a game. (That is my chief objection to FAs. The need some FS's have for FA spreadsheets. Like, why. This is a game and the need for spreadsheets is awful for some players.)

After that I guess it's a matter of either trial and error or remembering which ones do what? I am definitely not going to remember them, but also there's no back button to remove an ingredient? It seems like I have to dump a whole batch if I add an ingredient that changes the possible outcomes and start over. I mean, just no. Let me remove an ingredient. Don't make me start over. That's not going to happen. (Unless there's a remove ingredient button that I've missed and, if so, it should be more obvious and intuitive that it's there.)

2. A minor quibble, but the size of the prize icons in that crowded upper right hand corner is not great. Some are hard for me to distinguish and so it takes me a couple of seconds to discern what some of them are. That box is crowded and the list changes with each new ingredient so it's a bit much in a game that otherwise can move pretty fast.

3. I literally have no idea how to use the third screen or what it's for. You have icons on the left that are obviously things that can be upgraded but what are the things? When are they used? Then there's the bar on the right with a number and the number matches the witchpoints (?), which are there, but you can also add more witchpoints if you're willing to "donate resources," but ok? I've puttered around with this screen, but at no point does anything come up that tells me what I've actually done here or what's been accomplished so I'm never sure I've I've actually done.

4. Finally, the bonuses are so short. It's a lot of work and guesswork for a two hour bonus, once a week. Can bonuses be made longer? At least I know that much - yes, they can, but it's just too much for me to get there.

At least with the spire, MinMax's videos can get you going in a sure path with one short video and then it's just a matter of managing your resources and getting some fighting buildings/wonders to bolster your efforts.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your reply! Having just done a fresh run through the Cauldron to refresh my memory on what my issues are with it:

1. Obviously the randomness of the recipes/ingredients. I just am not going to use a spreadsheet. I need to use them in my actual day job and it's literally the worst part of an otherwise great job so there's no way I'm using one in a game. (That is my chief objection to FAs. The need some FS's have for FA spreadsheets. Like, why. This is a game and the need for spreadsheets is awful for some players.)

After that I guess it's a matter of either trial and error or remembering which ones do what? I am definitely not going to remember them, but also there's no back button to remove an ingredient? It seems like I have to dump a whole batch if I add an ingredient that changes the possible outcomes and start over. I mean, just no. Let me remove an ingredient. Don't make me start over. That's not going to happen. (Unless there's a remove ingredient button that I've missed and, if so, it should be more obvious and intuitive that it's there.)

2. A minor quibble, but the size of the prize icons in that crowded upper right hand corner is not great. Some are hard for me to distinguish and so it takes me a couple of seconds to discern what some of them are. That box is crowded and the list changes with each new ingredient so it's a bit much in a game that otherwise can move pretty fast.

3. I literally have no idea how to use the third screen or what it's for. You have icons on the left that are obviously things that can be upgraded but what are the things? When are they used? Then there's the bar on the right with a number and the number matches the witchpoints (?), which are there, but you can also add more witchpoints if you're willing to "donate resources," but ok? I've puttered around with this screen, but at no point does anything come up that tells me what I've actually done here or what's been accomplished so I'm never sure I've I've actually done.

4. Finally, the bonuses are so short. It's a lot of work and guesswork for a two hour bonus, once a week. Can bonuses be made longer? At least I know that much - yes, they can, but it's just too much for me to get there.

At least with the spire, MinMax's videos can get you going in a sure path with one short video and then it's just a matter of managing your resources and getting some fighting buildings/wonders to bolster your efforts.
There is an X on the black cauldron that lets you remove 1 ingredient at a time, the last one you put in and then continues back through the ingredients added.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
1. Obviously the randomness of the recipes/ingredients. I just am not going to use a spreadsheet.
For my chap 5 city, I can only boost coins or supplies. Half the ingredients do nothing if I add them. It doesn’t take a genius or a spreadsheet to tell me, then don’t add them. Some of the Cauldron posts prob scare people away more than is helpful by over complicating it for people who don’t need it that complicated.

3. I literally have no idea how to use the third screen or what it's for.
4. Finally, the bonuses are so short. It's a lot of work and guesswork for a two hour bonus, once a week. Can bonuses be made longer? At least I know that much - yes, they can, but it's just too much for me to get there.
These two go together. Throw a bunch of excess goods into last page to buy more than your free weekly allotment of witch points. Then spend them to improve the spells. They will be more potent and last longer. But also, the prices go up the more of the same goods you throw in. Ex: If you purchase witch points with coins, the next purchase with coins costs even more. Witch points also cost less with more diplomas so it isn’t worth it throwing goods into the sink for an early chapter player yet, I don’t think. Since I don’t need more coins or supplies, my strategy for my baby city is to use most of my free weekly allotment for the last page instead of the actual brew. For my big city, I am also not that concerned with brews yet and mostly building up my study page. The higher their yield, the sloppier I can be about brewing and that is good enough fuzzy math for me.
 

Silly Bubbles

You cant pop them all
1. Obviously the randomness of the recipes/ingredients. I just am not going to use a spreadsheet. I need to use them in my actual day job and it's literally the worst part of an otherwise great job so there's no way I'm using one in a game. (That is my chief objection to FAs. The need some FS's have for FA spreadsheets. Like, why. This is a game and the need for spreadsheets is awful for some players.)

After that I guess it's a matter of either trial and error or remembering which ones do what? I am definitely not going to remember them, but also there's no back button to remove an ingredient? It seems like I have to dump a whole batch if I add an ingredient that changes the possible outcomes and start over. I mean, just no. Let me remove an ingredient. Don't make me start over. That's not going to happen. (Unless there's a remove ingredient button that I've missed and, if so, it should be more obvious and intuitive that it's there.)

Sorry to add. You can make it as easy or as difficult as you want to. If you want to do it easy way, I'd pick one effect and find one or two ingredients that give the highest probability of getting it and use them to get to the study phase where I'd improve that effect. Once your effect is improved enough that you actually want to use it, you can start playing with other ingredients to improve chances of getting it. It usually comes down to only few ingredients depending on your diplomas and number of effects you're playing with. Then you can reuse those ingredients every week depending on your diamond ingredients. In time you'll understand it enough to start playing with the recipe and add more effects.
Like anything, it does need a bit of practice.
Good luck :)
 

Katwick

Cartographer
It usually comes down to only few ingredients depending on your diplomas and number of effects you're playing with. Then you can reuse those ingredients every week depending on your diamond ingredients.
Plus, if you have ONE good Recipe, you actually have TWELVE good recipes.

Everything iterates one position, but a reliable Recipe will work everywhere.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I think there is a long term goal here, and short term methods. The long term goal is to have an accurate and easy to use solver. That's what all Katwick's analysis is moving toward. Accuracy and, eventually, ease of use. The second is to have a relatively accurate, but easy to use, alternative. That's the intuitive trial and error approach or the spreadsheet The Fairy presents. The long term method will eventually get better results and if the solver becomes easy to use, should, logically, be better for all. The other two methods aren't as accurate, but they are here now. All of which is like a racing team busy building the perfect sports car finding out it won't be ready for the next required race. What to do? You grab the less able sports car and do your best. You may even win. In fact, perhaps, over the next few races, while you are still working on your super-car, you do win. But once that super-car is finished and polished nicely, who's going to bother driving the old car?

At this point Katwick is still building the super-car. He's telling us all about it, even if we aren't automobile engineers, we can appreciate what he's doing. At least I can appreciate it, even if I barely understand it. In the mean time we are all using one of the other methods. The "problem" is, when many people read Katwick's "Cauldron 101" they tend to think they have to be automobile engineers to drive the cauldron. A bit discouraging. On the other hand, those who bypass Katwick's work tend to miss it's importance and imply the other two methods are as good, which they might be at this time, but will never be once Katwick's solver is polished and put into a user-friendly shape.

Is the effort worth it? Is the difference between the other two methods sufficient to justify the work? Since Katwick is doing the work only he/she can say. I know it is to me because I would like to see a nearly automatic solver. But, like sports cars, I don't have to understand all the technical things about it to drive it, once it arrives on the showroom floor.

On the other hand, what he's doing it's not "101" for most folks. But neither, in my opinion, is The Fairy's spreadsheet. It easier to understand, but it doesn't really explain why the chart is the way it is.

So whatever tension exists here it's not because anybody is "wrong" or "right." It's just different goals and different perceptions.

Now if we could just get the Cauldron to tell us what the best option for whatever ingredients and goals we have might be, all this wouldn't even be necessary.

Like that would ever happen!

AJ
 

Silly Bubbles

You cant pop them all
The second is to have a relatively accurate, but easy to use, alternative. That's the intuitive trial and error approach or the spreadsheet The Fairy presents.

Can you please give us a link to the spreadsheet? Sorry, I can't find it. Any additional tool is great. :)
 

Katwick

Cartographer
once Katwick's solver is polished and put into a user-friendly shape.
Here's a teaser. How's this for a Library Index? And pretty too!
Witch Points vs Ingredients - Katwick 2023C21.png


03 Diplomas 17 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21.png


Recipe Library - With Hot Links!Sorted by Checkbox, Effect, Rate, Diplomas, # of Herbs, Title.
EffectRateDpl#WPs$$Recipe Title - and it's a Hot Link!
01_C_10.9%1024217420010 Diplomas Witch Point Test with 24 Herbs - Katwick 2023C14
01_C_60.5%101494612501 Diplomas Factored and Optimized - Katwick 2023C14
02_WS55.0%101357217502 Diplomas Factored and Optimized - Katwick 2023C14
03_SB10.0%10150003 Diplomas 01 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB16.2%102502503 Diplomas 02 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB19.8%1031272503 Diplomas 03 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB25.6%1041275003 Diplomas 04 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB28.9%1051277503 Diplomas 05 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB34.4%1062467503 Diplomas 06 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB37.9%10724610003 Diplomas 07 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB42.9%10842910003 Diplomas 08 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB46.5%10942912503 Diplomas 09 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB51.0%101071012503 Diplomas 10 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB54.5%101171015003 Diplomas 11 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB58.7%1012114315003 Diplomas 12 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB58.9%101491417503 Diplomas Factored and Optimized - Katwick 2023C14
03_SB58.9%101491517510 Diplomas Factored and Optimized - Katwick 2023C14
03_SB62.0%1013114317503 Diplomas 13 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB65.9%1014181017503 Diplomas 14 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB66.2%1015181020003 Diplomas 15 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB69.5%1016190820003 Diplomas 16 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB72.1%1017201620003 Diplomas 17 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB74.0%1018217620003 Diplomas 18 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB78.0%1019294525003 Diplomas 19 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB80.1%1020306325003 Diplomas 20 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB82.7%1021311027503 Diplomas 21 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB84.9%1022311030003 Diplomas 22 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB86.6%1023336430003 Diplomas 23 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB88.4%1024336432503 Diplomas 24 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C21
03_SB90.7%1025375532503 Diplomas 25 Cables Jack and the Beanstalk - Katwick 2023C2

I've pretty much got everything working now, so I'm just a couple of weeks away from Cauldrons 102 and a Beta release.
 
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