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    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Chapter 16 Embassies

qaccy

Well-Known Member
The important distinction to make when talking these two AWs and comparing them to others is that the ranking points granted by the bonuses are permanent. You'll keep those points even if you delete the AWs, unlike any other AW or building in the game. Essentially, these two 'produce' ranking points with a weekly 'collection' every Friday (for the Spire) and Saturday (for the tournament), and given enough time and participation, eventually these buildings will outvalue anything else in terms of ranking contribution. The sooner you get them, the sooner you can start accumulating these permanent points.
 

Pheryll

Well-Known Member
The important distinction to make when talking these two AWs and comparing them to others is that the ranking points granted by the bonuses are permanent. You'll keep those points even if you delete the AWs, unlike any other AW or building in the game. Essentially, these two 'produce' ranking points with a weekly 'collection' every Friday (for the Spire) and Saturday (for the tournament), and given enough time and participation, eventually these buildings will outvalue anything else in terms of ranking contribution. The sooner you get them, the sooner you can start accumulating these permanent points.

The thing is why would you wish to delete a wonder that you spent thousands of KP on? And if you do not spend thousands of KP there will be little benefit. But if the points are added at the current multiplier of the wonder and do not retroactively increase when leveling the wonder, then simply getting the wonder early is not enough. Several levels would have to be placed in it for it to be of significant use. The ability to keep points when your wonder multiplier goes to zero (deleting the building) has some severe downsides.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
I am not sure if this has been discussed, because I am too annoyed to read the whole thread. How does the tournament arena not completely destroy any player's (who isn't already top ranked and in the next ch.) chance of ever advancing in the rankings? Basing it on chests completed AFTER the building is built, means that whoever finishes the ch first, gets the advantage. A multiple of players tourney score I would understand, as that can be accumulated over time... but AFTER it's built? Why build any ranking point wonder ever if you can't hope to ever catch up to those who have built it? If you care about ranking, you shouldn't even start to play the game... as there are players who will have accumulated piles of ranking points that you cannot hope to obtain, unless everyone ahead of you quits the game... what is this wonder trying to achieve? All this does is give ranking points to the players who haven't gone out of their way to place in the tournament and actually hurts the players who have dedicated time to placing in the tourney, but are not as far along in the research.
This has been true far before the arrival of these two wonders ,which only makes things a bit worse. Each KP invested in an AW gives 1 ranking point when the AW is upgraded. This means, you already get 1 ranking point an hour from the time you start (except for those spent in research, but they are the same for everyone), plus 135 points at the end of the tournament if you make 10 chests (even though you have to wait for the time you use them and upgrade the AW to get them). So old players will keep bonus points for all the KP they accumulated over years.
However, there is still a way to prevent this : opening new worlds in a regular basis. In new worlds, there is no historical accumulation, which allow every player which started before the opening of the new world to have a chance to be top ranked.
(That's a reason why I have two cities : one started March 2, 2018 in FR3 (world opened 2015) and one started Oct 29, 2019 in FR4, which was 5 days old at this time. I expect having in the long term less points but a better rank in my second city than in my first one.)
 
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MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
The thing is why would you wish to delete a wonder that you spent thousands of KP on? And if you do not spend thousands of KP there will be little benefit. But if the points are added at the current multiplier of the wonder and do not retroactively increase when leveling the wonder, then simply getting the wonder early is not enough. Several levels would have to be placed in it for it to be of significant use. The ability to keep points when your wonder multiplier goes to zero (deleting the building) has some severe downsides.
People who benefit from those AWs the most have different problems than the rest of us ;) If you have maxed all the AWs (that you wanted to build), then there is literally no use for KPs in the end game, except helping out someone else for no benefit. So for those players building and leveling these AWs is essentially a freebee if they're willing to allocate space for it. These AWs only compete for space, not for KPs. And if something better comes along later on, they can drop these AWs just like that, without losing any benefits that accumulated during the time these were active.

These AWs are kind of gift for people who already have everything ;)
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
People who benefit from those AWs the most have different problems than the rest of us ;) If you have maxed all the AWs (that you wanted to build), then there is literally no use for KPs in the end game, except helping out someone else for no benefit. So for those players building and leveling these AWs is essentially a freebee if they're willing to allocate space for it. These AWs only compete for space, not for KPs. And if something better comes along later on, they can drop these AWs just like that, without losing any benefits that accumulated during the time these were active.

These AWs are kind of gift for people who already have everything ;)

Nice summary, except for the highlighted part, you could help people to aquire KP instants, those instants then can be used on wonders like these when they come out and you really like them :)

The thing is why would you wish to delete a wonder that you spent thousands of KP on? And if you do not spend thousands of KP there will be little benefit. But if the points are added at the current multiplier of the wonder and do not retroactively increase when leveling the wonder, then simply getting the wonder early is not enough. Several levels would have to be placed in it for it to be of significant use. The ability to keep points when your wonder multiplier goes to zero (deleting the building) has some severe downsides.
It looks like some wonders on the longer term will be worse in ranking points per square per chain (most buildings need a supply chain that also needs space) than regular buildings even if you upgraded them tot level 30.
This means that if the beneficial power of these wonders is not good enough actually deleting them could be a consideration, especially since wonderlevels influence the spire in a negative manner. so decreasing the amount of wonderlevels could be a benefecial thing in the future.
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
Nice summary, except for the highlighted part, you could help people to aquire KP instants, those instants then can be used on wonders like these when they come out and you really like them :)
Fair enough, even though I don't know if there is value in that. I'd probably just sit with KPs on the bar. You will be losing 168 KP/week at most, sure. But in regular KP swaps it is pretty difficult to break over 0.3 AWKP / 1 KP invested (unless doing a lot of sniping). Basically, you'd be wasting 70% of all KPs that you convert that way. So as long as you generate more than 240 KPs a week from tournament/buildings (not hard to do), you're better off just sitting tight with your KPs (unless there is some hidden cap on that). This also has a benefit of being able to blow through any new chapters pronto, at least as far as KPs are concerned.

The math could be different if you can convert KP->AWKP at better rates. It is possible, but AFAIK requires A TON of work. Probably better off just collecting IOUs from people you donate KPs to, but that's a whole different story.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Just an example for the above situation.

Endless excavation is a wonder who's powers become "useless" once you reach the elvenar chapter, the production of supplies from workshops outdwarfs that of this wonder so spectaculary thet this one does not make much sense anymore, also besides for an event quest those relics also do not make sense anymore in this stage of the game. So this wonder "only" exists for ranking points

This case is with absolute optimal ranking points from this wonder which 99.99% of the players do not have

Endless excavation level 30:
Space: 20 sq
Ranking points: 18098
Max Throne bonus: 4500
-----------------------------------
Total: 22598

Points per Square = 1130 pps

Now look at other combinations with the same "high target" player. this means most wonders are maxed

Armoury:
Ranking points: 27091
Space 28sq
Culture needed: 20488 - 80% return rate from watchtower & sanctuary/monestary = 4098 culture
Pop needed: 6603

Magic House:
Ranking points: 5370
Space: 20sq
Pop: 13000+20% Thermal spring = 15600
Culture needed: 5370 - 80% = 1074
---------------------------------------------------
Needed gained for Armoury = 42%
Ranking points: 3515
Space: 8.4
Culture needed: 451

Best possible Culture: 4098+451 = 4549 = +- 2.7sq

The pps of the Armoury chain is in the current emnbassy chapter at maximum:
27091+ 3515 = 30606
Space: 28+8.4*2.7 = 39.1

pps = 30606-39.1 = 783 pps

There is still a difference in favour of the wonder at level 30. but the difference is currenly quickly dwindling
Just a few weeks ago the pps was ~50% of the current pps for an armoury and therefore the potential ranking point difference between a wonder and a regular building chain was huge. but no longer is that the case.

If this trend keeps to continue by the next chapter several wonders will become rankingwise obsolete.
And if you are not in the position to have all wonders at level 30, but ranking is somewhat important then it's time to get very picky about which wonders should be leveled and which can be demolished as for those people the pps will be 100% in favour of doing for other buildings than wonders.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Fair enough, even though I don't know if there is value in that. I'd probably just sit with KPs on the bar. You will be losing 168 KP/week at most, sure. But in regular KP swaps it is pretty difficult to break over 0.3 AWKP / 1 KP invested (unless doing a lot of sniping). Basically, you'd be wasting 70% of all KPs that you convert that way. So as long as you generate more than 240 KPs a week from tournament/buildings (not hard to do), you're better off just sitting tight with your KPs (unless there is some hidden cap on that). This also has a benefit of being able to blow through any new chapters pronto, at least as far as KPs are concerned.

The math could be different if you can convert KP->AWKP at better rates. It is possible, but AFAIK requires A TON of work. Probably better off just collecting IOUs from people you donate KPs to, but that's a whole different story.

You are totally right again about that one, I never thought about that one as I would not mind to help my fellow members if I ever reach that stage in game,
And who knows, some might return the favour when I want a new wonder but thats something elkse.

Most people I know with level 30 wonders get them by pushing, the disadvantage of pushing is that it's easy, you get lazy very quick and I know very little pushers with really strong tournament result, in general they even struggle to get 1600 points a week. for them the tournaments have nothing to give as it's main prize the KP are already pouring in much easier by pushing. the most common thing I have seen is that the feed 20 mini accounts with goods and they get 1600 points or more on each of those. this feeds several thousands of kp a week into there wonders. somthing that even outdwarfs my 800KP a week from the tournaments.

So most of these people never make 240kp a week in the tournaments
 

T6583

Well-Known Member
I know we're not even that far into Embassies right now but I'm personally finding it extremely boring and tedious with the low guest race productions compared to the required guest race goods needed. It's hard to stay interested. At least I have a good FS, tourney, spire, and even the terrible events as of late to keep me from completely losing interest. The snail pace for this chapter is just frustrating. I'm not saying that we need to be able to blow through it but there needs to be a better balance when it comes to progressing through the chapters. Maybe if the productions were twice what they are right now at Level 1 it might be as bad. I wonder how many players who can't log in every 3 hours are going to get frustrated and rage quit? I want to pull my hair out already just trying to get enough of the items from the Embassies alone as well as the ability to have enough draft laws. Right now I need to run 26 productions in each embassy just to unlock the tea house and beer festival. I have a level 9 BTG (and suddenly feel the urge / need to upgrade it as fast as I can now to try to get better production numbers). If I can only do 5-6 collections a day thats 4-5 days for 1 research without using time instants. I can live with 2-3 days per research. 4-5 days are really pushing it.
 

Deborah M

Well-Known Member
Is there a listing of the quests for chapter 16? I checked GoK and can't find one there. I've already run into a problem with early quest to have 5 beer festivals. I worked out how to fit 4 of each settlement building which was not easy! Now I really want to plan for whatever the quests require. I wasn't in a rush but I'm really frustrated coming up on a road block so early in the chapter. I'm not worried about storing something to get that 5th one built and I will have every intention to put back whatever building I have to temporarily store when the quest is checked off.
 

NightshadeCS

Well-Known Member
I am taking a break before starting Chapter 16 fully to upgrade the majority of my buildings and build up some stockpiles.

I did build the Senate, so that I could at least start producing the Draft Laws that I will need for the first few techs. It looks like I can upgrade it right away to lvl 2 with just coins and supplies.

Just checking to see if everybody did that right away and if there is any hidden drawback to doing that before building anything else (like a quest I am unaware of.
Thanks!
NS
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
I am taking a break before starting Chapter 16 fully to upgrade the majority of my buildings and build up some stockpiles.

I did build the Senate, so that I could at least start producing the Draft Laws that I will need for the first few techs. It looks like I can upgrade it right away to lvl 2 with just coins and supplies.

Just checking to see if everybody did that right away and if there is any hidden drawback to doing that before building anything else (like a quest I am unaware of.
Thanks!
NS
You need to research another tech to upgrade Senate to level 2 (This tech is just after Beer festival and Tea house).
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
Here is a quest list for chapter 16 (in Italian, so you probably want to use Google translate or something similar):


This is not made by me, just to be clear. All credit goes to the original author.
 

Deborah M

Well-Known Member
Here is a quest list for chapter 16 (in Italian, so you probably want to use Google translate or something similar):


This is not made by me, just to be clear. All credit goes to the original author.

Thanks! I can't figure out how to copy/paste that and translate in Excel but at least now I know. So yeah, it is bad news. I got it worked out but feeling very coerced having to fit in that many settlement buildings. I went from 3 each plan to 4 each plan just to hit this wall requiring 5 each :(
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
Thanks! I can't figure out how to copy/paste that and translate in Excel but at least now I know. So yeah, it is bad news. I got it worked out but feeling very coerced having to fit in that many settlement buildings. I went from 3 each plan to 4 each plan just to hit this wall requiring 5 each :(
If you just want to clear one of these quests, all you need to do is to build the extras when the quest is on, then remove them right away. No need to readjust your plan, as 5x can indeed be too much if you're not raking in hundreds of KPs each tournament. You will be just waiting for KPs.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
The buildings for this chapter definitely take a lot of space. right now, I have the room for one of each and that is it. I guess I should look at that quest list and see how many of each building I need.
 

juniperknome

Well-Known Member
the pop/ culture building got a decent buff most look to be 20% or so. why so small a buff on the production building some even 0% a good 20% or so buff on seeds and mana would be so nice. don't need mana but seed use is out of control
 
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