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    Your Elvenar Team

News City movement

defiantoneks

Well-Known Member
assuming the "world" is an infinite and ever expanding rectangle…
you could create multiple centers that are "x" spaces from the next center. as needed, make "x" space +1 to create additional openings in the world for new players. so the "edges" will fall between centers and not all at the very "ends". then everyone has a small amount of edge space, and on occasion that may increase to a few more openings for the new players, but they eventually fill in. as people drop off, new spaces wont be needed since those vacancies become available rather than needing a new one created.
 

ed1960

Buddy member #3, EAA
I agree that someone will have to be on the edge of either the map, goldmines, or a ton of inactive cities. It just has to be.

Ed
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
In the absence of any information about why they aren't fixing it, it appears there are multiple possible solutions which are better than what we have. At the least, programmatically, it should make it easy to appear to your neighbours that a city is responding to your help, even if they never initiate it. Gold mines as an answer feels lazy.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
In the absence of any information about why they aren't fixing it, it appears there are multiple possible solutions which are better than what we have. At the least, programmatically, it should make it easy to appear to your neighbours that a city is responding to your help, even if they never initiate it. Gold mines as an answer feels lazy.

Fake cities don't post or accept trades.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Fake cities don't post or accept trades.
So unless they create fake cities (improved gold mines) that do everything, you're opposed to them creating anything other than coins coming from those gold mines? Do they have to also have the ability to donate to AW's and/or create/join a FS? Or, if they create bot traders from those cities, then would it be ok to also create some bot visits? While I can respect the 'all or nothing' approach in some situations, this would not be it. For me, settling for incremental improvements would be preferable to nothing; even getting them to improve the gold mines to provide supplies would be an improvement.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
So unless they create fake cities (improved gold mines) that do everything, you're opposed to them creating anything other than coins coming from those gold mines? Do they have to also have the ability to donate to AW's and/or create/join a FS? Or, if they create bot traders from those cities, then would it be ok to also create some bot visits? While I can respect the 'all or nothing' approach in some situations, this would not be it. For me, settling for incremental improvements would be preferable to nothing; even getting them to improve the gold mines to provide supplies would be an improvement.

Why even have neighbors if you want Inno to do everything for you?
 

ed1960

Buddy member #3, EAA
For me, settling for incremental improvements would be preferable to nothing; even getting them to improve the gold mines to provide supplies would be an improvement.
I would agree that, at a minimum, this would be an improvement. However, I still think we have to accept that no matter how we move folks around, "somebody" will be on an edge. Only in a spherical world filled with the exact numbers for every space and nobody quits or takes a break is this going to be possible.

4.jpg


Why bother scouting now its all empty space
Ed
 
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defiantoneks

Well-Known Member
you guys ever watch the Core?
we're dealing with one big bomb here, so the benefits decrease significantly as you move toward the perimeter.
BUT if you lay down multiple bombs, aka multiple centers, the edges can reinforce each other.
 

defiantoneks

Well-Known Member
current method. "constant" movement of people toward the vortex, leaving a large dead area at the perimeter.

black-rectangle-png-free-download-fourjayorg-black-rectangle-png-985_492 copy.png


modular method. smaller gaps that would include only one or two layers of coin cities. advanced players would scout PAST the dead space into the next circle. so there'd be a few empties, but those can be filled by new players. once players are in and placed, should not need as much moving if the game has new players. if one circle becomes less populated, small shifts can be made.
black-rectangle-png-free-download-fourjayorg-black-rectangle-png-985_492.png
 

ed1960

Buddy member #3, EAA
you guys ever watch the Core?
we're dealing with one big bomb here, so the benefits decrease significantly as you move toward the perimeter.
BUT if you lay down multiple bombs, aka multiple centers, the edges can reinforce each other.
Defiantoneks, I get the idea, but at some point, the flat surface ends, so in your second pic, Middle left, everyone in that black bar is on an edge, or the edge of the circle leaves all dead space to its left. Also, since we are dealing with Hexagons, we have to account for getting the pattern correctly repeating, which might mean spreading out the circles you show and thus increasing the dead space.
 

defiantoneks

Well-Known Member
Defiantoneks, I get the idea, but at some point, the flat surface ends, so in your second pic, Middle left, everyone in that black bar is on an edge, or the edge of the circle leaves all dead space to its left. Also, since we are dealing with Hexagons, we have to account for getting the pattern correctly repeating, which might mean spreading out the circles you show and thus increasing the dead space.
that may be true, but the dead spaces are far, far smaller and each individual player would be looking at minimal dead space by comparison to the current state. and you can make this scalable to a cylindrical format. the edges could in fact meet, just like a world map of our planet. when more "space" is needed, program in an extra ring to each center and fill in the gaps between mini-worlds with new people
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I basically understand the ideas to improve city movement put forth so far, I understand that with a flat surface we're always going to have cities on the edge. I've read other ideas in the past about having 'dynamic' movement (I don't understand that concept as well, but since I'm a bit jaded, I didn't make a huge effort to understand it. I'm not attached to any one solution; there is merit in all these ideas, but the statement I most agree with describing this situation is:
In the absence of any information about why they aren't fixing it, it appears there are multiple possible solutions which are better than what we have.
They need to do something differently.
 

ed1960

Buddy member #3, EAA
In my neighborhood I have 17 rings scouted fully and in that there are 55 cities w/o a wonder and most that I have checked are MH houses workshops and a couple of T1's. None return visits and are inactive I assume, I have 43 that return my visits regularly, I have 23 that return visits somewhat regularly, and 23 gold mines. That accounts for 144 cities out of 276 (52%) that I have scouted and only 24% I would consider as active based on return visits. The balance are cities that likely stopped playing.

Yes it is a pain but I manage as I do not count of the actions of others to make my city prosper.

Ed
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper, Keys to the Gems
current method. "constant" movement of people toward the vortex, leaving a large dead area at the perimeter.

View attachment 13878

modular method. smaller gaps that would include only one or two layers of coin cities. advanced players would scout PAST the dead space into the next circle. so there'd be a few empties, but those can be filled by new players. once players are in and placed, should not need as much moving if the game has new players. if one circle becomes less populated, small shifts can be made.
View attachment 13879
Sounds like the original map. It was scrapped in the fall of 2016, and has a bad patch job in some of the older realms as a result. The trouble is when most of sector goes inactive, then the folks further out get cut off.
 

Genefer

Member
The Map should be layered, because there is no reason multiple players cannot have the same neighbor. Inactive cities should be moved off the world to a backup server until they become active again. There should not be cities that have been inactive for months and years on the map.

However, if the developers are incapable or not willing to pay the effort of creating a functional tool, they should at a minimum rotate the cities, make desolation scouts extra easy, and provide automatic reciprocal neighborly help applied to a culture building and give both coins & supplies when the neighborly help is given within the bonus duration.

Again & again, I read remarks basically claiming that because goldmines still give the coins therefore it does not matter, but that ignores the supplies received from gold hand neighborly help. Ignoring the deceptive "neighbors" the goldmines cost me a potential of over 900,000 supplies and add in the inactive "neighbors" I lose an additional potential of over 1,700,000 totaling 2,600,000 potential supplies lost due to the lack of neighbors.

The potential supply & coin production resulting from the Culture Bonus for my city is millions, which means the loss is potentially millions.

The lack of neighbors devalues my Ensorcelled Endowments for every hour the building is unpolished costing me the 9% increase in my Culture Bonus value. These enchantments are not free; they require time & relics to Enchant in the MA and/or troops & resources earned in the Tournaments - the loss when inactive is very expensive.

According to the Elvenar Wiki acquiring a 170% Culture Bonus requires a “steady flow of Neighborly Help will ensure you can get this Bonus without having to occupy too much space with Cultural Buildings.” If my Culture Bonus drops below 170%, which is the highest possible without the Ensorcelled Endowment Enchantments, due to a lack of neighborly help, the potential value of my enchantment is decreased.

The lack of neighbors to potentially provide neighborly help decreases not only the value of my Ensorcelled Endowment potential, but also the potential value of my Power of Provision Enchantments. Again, the Power of Provision costs both time & relics to enchant in the MA and/or troops & resources to earn in the Tournaments.

To clarify for players that may not be aware of how the Power of Provision benefit is calculated. The effect of the Power of Provision applies to the Base Production value + the Culture Bonus Boost value.

For example, using my Chap 15 Magic Workshop:

The Beverage Production Base value is 3,500 Supplies - using my Prosperity Towers enhanced Power of Provision, which has an effect value of 265% the supply production value is 12,775

My Current Culture Bonus is 449% boosting my Beverage Supply Production by 12,215 - bringing the total production to 15,715 - using my Prosperity Towers enhanced Power of Provision, which has an effect value of 265% the supply production value is 57,360.

My Culture Bonus value of 449%, which can only be achieved with the use of the Ensorcelled Endowment Enchantment combined with the Power of Provision 265% effect value increases my Beverage supply production by 44,585 supplies.

A few days ago, due to a low amount of neighborly help I was 7,000 culture points above what I need for the 170% Culture Bonus, and had a polish expired dropping my culture by those 7,000 points it would have eliminated the value of Enchantments applied to my polished enchanted Culture buildings, because the enchantment would replace the loss.

My Mana Production Potential is also impacted by Neighborly Help - or lack of. I have a level 20 Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood Ancient Wonder that increases the Mana production of polished enchanted Mana/Culture buildings by 70%. We all know Mana/Culture buildings do not typically have high culture value so to benefit from the Mana production Boost requires a lot of neighborly help. If all the 24 members in my Fellowship polish one of my buildings, I need an additional 25 neighbors to polish my buildings in order to benefit from the Mana Boost for my 4 Mana/Culture buildings. Given the Pets cannot be Enchanted it would be nice if they could not be polished either, because I would only need 19 neighbors polishing my buildings for all 4 Mana/Culture Buildings to be polished.

However, my Petal Bridge has a high enough Culture value that it is polished 45% of the time, but the inconsistency decreases the value of my Ensorcelled Endowment and costing the potential of

Petal Bridge - 8,190 Mana
Mystical Lake - 10,570 Mana

However, the lack of neighbors to polish my buildings also results in my enchanted Forbidden Ruin & Hungry Treasure to be Enchanted, but unpolished costing me the potential of

Hungry Treasure - 13,130
Forbidden Ruin - 16,800

Depending on Neighborly Help that is a total potential of 48,690 mana from my Enchantments & Lighthouse Good Neighborhood Ancient Wonder, but with the lack of neighbors it is a benefit that cannot be fully realized.

My City’s Goods acquisition is decreased due to my city’s lack of active neighbors. The higher my Culture Bonus determines the amount of Wholesaler purchases I can afford.

As I said previously many of my neighbors are casually active so some days my neighborly help Culture Bonus is very high and some very low. Here are examples of the effect on my City’s Goods acquisition with the extreme high of 611% on the 18/19th & low of 441% on the 23/24th of this month.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Culture Bonus of 611% - 49 Enchanted Polished Buildings
3pm 10/18/22 to 3pm 10/19/22 Wholesale Units Purchased Supplies alone

T1: 26 x 32,560 = 846,560 units
T2: 26 x 21,830 = 567,580 units
T3: 24 x 14,430 = 346,320 units
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Culture Bonused 341%
3pm 10/23/22 to 3pm 10/24/22 Wholesale Units Purchased Supplies/Coins

T1: 16 x 32,560 = 520,960 units
T2: 16 x 21,830 = 349,280 units
T3: 16 x 14,430 = 230,880 units
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Wholesale Goods Purchase Unit Potential Lost
T1: 325,600
T2: 218,300
T3: 115,440

Note that on 10/18/2022 I made the purchases with Supplies alone while on 10/23/2022 I spent Coins & Supplies.

With 554 completed provinces I should have enough active neighbors for my norm to be 600% rather than the 440% to 512% range.

If it is not clear, the Culture Bonus can increase your City’s Goods “production” by providing the coin & supplies to purchase Goods from the Wholesaler, and significantly as the Blooming Trader Guild Ancient Wonder levels.

These are the quantities of Goods I purchased from the Wholesaler from Monday 11:28 am 10/24/22 to 3 pm 10/29/22. I used some Supply & Coin Rainfalls also, but for the most part these purchases were possible due to my Culture Bonus. The purchase quantity increased on the 26th due to my Main Hall upgrade
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T1: 4,055,360 (120 Purchases) (62 prior to the upgrade)
T2: 2,712,060 (121 Purchases) (62 prior to the upgrade)
T3: 1,668,200 (116 Purchases) (60 prior to the upgrade)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I had the number of active neighbors, I should have with 554 completed provinces I have no doubt my Culture Bonus would be consistently in the high 500% to the mid 600% range - or far higher - I have the buildings for a far higher Culture Bonus.

If I had the number of active neighbors, I should, I could save space in my city by decreasing the number of Culture, Mana/Culture, and Factories in my city.

Clearly, coins are not the full benefit of Neighborly help and Goldmines and inactive neighbors do not equate to supplies, mana, or the goods purchased from the wholesaler - they are a net loss resulting in the loss of available city space.

In fact - when I give neighborly help I receive 101,000 coins - great. However, Goldmines & inactive neighbors do not reciprocate, hindering my Culture Bonus potential.

The base Chapter 15 Magic Residence coin production is 330,000 coins in 21 hours & 30 minutes - the early collect is 1.5 hours so around 22,500 coins. Currently with a Culture Bonus of 476% my Chapter 15 Magic Residences Gives me an early collection of 111,662 coins x 26 - 3,059,212 coins. Imagine how many coins my residences would produce if I had the number of active neighbors I should with 554 completed provinces.

It is not about coins and no single player should have to carry the burden of Desolation for months with no end in sight.

I have been writing this off and on throughout the day, which is why the Culture Bonus values are different when talking about the beverage than the residence
 
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Genefer

Member
I also think cities should be neighbored by players within 3 chapters above and below. A small city encircled by large cities are at the mercy of the large players accepting their trades, because large cities do not have the time to list 90 - 200-unit trades again & again all day to acquire the quantity of goods they need to trade. A large city encircled by small cities - well they better have a Blooming trader
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I basically understand the ideas to improve city movement put forth so far, I understand that with a flat surface we're always going to have cities on the edge. I've read other ideas in the past about having 'dynamic' movement (I don't understand that concept as well, but since I'm a bit jaded, I didn't make a huge effort to understand it. I'm not attached to any one solution; there is merit in all these ideas, but the statement I most agree with describing this situation is:

They need to do something differently.
I was in favour of this at one time, but dynamic movement is made much more difficult by the way the resources are calculated according to our surrounding provinces. Only a tiny fraction of the hexes on the map have the same layout and can be moved to without that changing.
 
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