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    Your Elvenar Team

Combat Beyond the Pentagon

ekarat

Well-Known Member
I'm largely a self-taught player, so I know the basics, but it's always possible that I've missed something and (swallowing my pride for a moment), it's always possible to learn. Plus, combat has changed in the past 2+ years -- the AI has gotten better (possibly only obvious if you've taken a long break from the game, but I swear it was different two years ago), encounters have more mixed types, and multi-wave battles are a thing. Also, we now have full 3 stars on all troops, unlike two years ago.

As for combat guides, they really haven't been updated for all these changes. Plus, all the ones I've read seem to boil down to:

Basic strategy: Respect the pentagon.
Advanced strategy: Don't rush the enemy. Order determines starting position. You can fight and quit to see the layout before selecting troops for real.

I'm looking for tips that are different from these two, particularly when to violate those rules. For example, I keep reading that people love frogs (and I've just unlocked three stars on them, which is what's prompting me to write). However, if you only wanted to respect the pentagon, you'd only deploy them against light melee troops. (Or maybe people only do that, but appreciate how effective they are against light melee.) Not to mention, the greater variety of troop types encountered (I've seen a battle with all 5 troop types), troop selection is more complicated than it once was.

What tips do you have that goes beyond the tips above? Especially, when do you violate the pentagon? (There are exceptions for "Don't rush the enemy", but those are more obvious.)
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
@ekarat Don't just pay attention to what class an enemy unit is, look at the specific bonuses it gets. For example the Furious Hellhound and the Brutal Ancient Orc are both light melee troops. However the Furious Hellhound specializes against mage units. It gets much better bonuses against mages than it does against light ranged. The Brutal Ancient Orc is the opposite, it specializes against light ranged. It has much better bonuses against light ranged than it does against mage units. Details such as these are very important for deciding when to violate the pentagon.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
@ekarat Don't just pay attention to what class an enemy unit is, look at the specific bonuses it gets. For example the Furious Hellhound and the Brutal Ancient Orc are both light melee troops. However the Furious Hellhound specializes against mage units. It gets much better bonuses against mages than it does against light ranged. The Brutal Ancient Orc is the opposite, it specializes against light ranged. It has much better bonuses against light ranged than it does against mage units. Details such as these are very important for deciding when to violate the pentagon.

While that is true, I don't consider that a violation of the pentagon -- I consider it a specialization. To me, the pentagon means that light melee have benefits against either light ranged or mages or both (but some are more oriented towards one or the other, which some have weaker bonuses for each). But I still consider that "respect the pentagon."
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
@ekarat Perhaps I was not clear enough. What I meant was that enemy specializations can help you decide when to violate the pentagon, because when a unit specializes against 1 type then it has less of an advantage against the other type. For example, say that mages would be good against most of the enemy line-up EXCEPT for that 1 light melee unit they have. I am still very likely to use mages if that enemy light melee unit is an Ancient Orc. Might just use 5 mage units since they can burn down that 1 Orc unit fairly easily. If that enemy light melee unit is a Hellhound though then I am probably going to send in at least 1 or 2 heavy ranged units to deal with it because it has such high bonuses against mages.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
As a manual fighter with all troops at 3star, fully evolved Fire Chicken, available military boost bldgs of all types, and military AW's at decent (16+) levels, I violate the pentagon all the time. I tend to favor ranged troops over melee; the longer range the better. I rarely use dogs against enemy mages because of their low initiative and their poor health when compared to archers or rangers for example. I'll opt for Blossom Mage against enemy heavy range over the banshee or sorceress due to their range and initiative as well. That's when I'm going with the pentagon, just not using specialized troops.
Some examples of violating the pentagon:
Frogs are good against other heavy range troops due to both their range and they have the highest initiative of any heavy range troops in the game, so they get first strike against enemy heavy range. They're also decent against the slow moving heavy melee, especially the Orc Generals who don't have that great of health. The Knights are the exception to this unless it's just one due to their higher health and slightly longer strike range. Obviously, I don't go with frogs if the enemy is mostly heavy melee, but a couple of Orc Generals and I'll go with 5 frogs if the enemy is a light melee/heavy melee mix.
If it's a light range/heavy melee mix, I sometimes use rangers. Due to their range, initiative and strike back they can be good against other light range and they're decent against the heavy melee. I very seldom use dryads. Archers can be useful when the only enemy heavy range is an orc deserter. Those units are specialized against your light melee troops and have no defense buff against light range (they do have a small attack boost against them). But, if you can strike first, the archer can do some damage. So, if the archer is helpful in a given lineup, having one orc deserter won't stop me from sending them in.
Blossom Mages are excellent against enemy mages due to their initiative and range. So, in a heavy range/mage mix, I'll go with 5 blossoms instead of a couple of archers/rangers/dogs for the enemy mages. Also, I'll mix Blossoms with light range in some fights where there are enemy light range. I hold the blossoms back, send the archers or rangers out, and the enemy light range will target my light range (that have hopefully hit them once already) due to their higher initiative, leaving the blossoms alone. The only enemy light range that really bothers me is the Mist Walker. With the highest initiative in the game, highest movement range for light ranged troops, and heavy attack buffs against mages, I hate them, lol! Orc Strats have a better attack/defense buff against them than frogs, but they get first strike almost every single time. If the terrain is such they can't move on their first turn, then I'll use frogs to get them before they can move. Again, while that's not using specialized troops, it's not directly violating the pentagon either.
Keep in mind that when manually fighting, I have the option to skip turns, move out of enemy range and wait for them to come to me. None of these things is possible with auto fighting.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
As a manual fighter with all troops at 3star, fully evolved Fire Chicken, available military boost bldgs of all types, and military AW's at decent (16+) levels, I violate the pentagon all the time. I tend to favor ranged troops over melee; the longer range the better. I rarely use dogs against enemy mages because of their low initiative and their poor health when compared to archers or rangers for example. I'll opt for Blossom Mage against enemy heavy range over the banshee or sorceress due to their range and initiative as well. That's when I'm going with the pentagon, just not using specialized troops.
Some examples of violating the pentagon:
Frogs are good against other heavy range troops due to both their range and they have the highest initiative of any heavy range troops in the game, so they get first strike against enemy heavy range. They're also decent against the slow moving heavy melee, especially the Orc Generals who don't have that great of health. The Knights are the exception to this unless it's just one due to their higher health and slightly longer strike range. Obviously, I don't go with frogs if the enemy is mostly heavy melee, but a couple of Orc Generals and I'll go with 5 frogs if the enemy is a light melee/heavy melee mix.
If it's a light range/heavy melee mix, I sometimes use rangers. Due to their range, initiative and strike back they can be good against other light range and they're decent against the heavy melee. I very seldom use dryads. Archers can be useful when the only enemy heavy range is an orc deserter. Those units are specialized against your light melee troops and have no defense buff against light range (they do have a small attack boost against them). But, if you can strike first, the archer can do some damage. So, if the archer is helpful in a given lineup, having one orc deserter won't stop me from sending them in.
Blossom Mages are excellent against enemy mages due to their initiative and range. So, in a heavy range/mage mix, I'll go with 5 blossoms instead of a couple of archers/rangers/dogs for the enemy mages. Also, I'll mix Blossoms with light range in some fights where there are enemy light range. I hold the blossoms back, send the archers or rangers out, and the enemy light range will target my light range (that have hopefully hit them once already) due to their higher initiative, leaving the blossoms alone. The only enemy light range that really bothers me is the Mist Walker. With the highest initiative in the game, highest movement range for light ranged troops, and heavy attack buffs against mages, I hate them, lol! Orc Strats have a better attack/defense buff against them than frogs, but they get first strike almost every single time. If the terrain is such they can't move on their first turn, then I'll use frogs to get them before they can move. Again, while that's not using specialized troops, it's not directly violating the pentagon either.
Keep in mind that when manually fighting, I have the option to skip turns, move out of enemy range and wait for them to come to me. None of these things is possible with auto fighting.

I agree about the blossom mages. I've been starting to use them more. I also use vanilla archers whenever possible, both due to their range and the fact that I produce more for free than fall in battle -- I never train any, yet I never run out. I haven't been impressed with rangers, but I haven't used them much since recently upgrading them to 3-stars. (Having completed my 3-star upgrades is what prompted me to start this thread.) My experience is that rangers still get within their 4 hex range and then get obliterated by the other units. They have heavy losses.

I somewhat disagree on the war puppies. The low initiative is a good thing -- the opponent charges forward, and the dogs tear them apart and don't face retaliation that round. If they had higher initiative, I'd have to skip their first round entirely to let the opponent charge forward first.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Yep, rangers can be tricky to use. They're best with terrain that includes a lot of obstacles they can use to avoid any enemy light melee and stay far enough away from enemy heavy melee. They're less useful against the Knights due to this as well. Sometimes my rangers seem to do better against enemy bandits and wild archers (neither of which has strike back abilities) than my archers just because of the extra hex in the ranger movement range. My archers can't always reach the enemy for the first strike. Rangers reach them, hit them first, then when they get hit with a weaker enemy light range, they kill a few more with the strike back. Usually the enemy is gone by the 2nd hit from the ranger. My Needles and Monastery are both also at lvl 21, so I'm sure that helps a bunch. Free archers make them the unit of choice most of the time unless its mostly mages in the enemy lineup, though.
I train and keep a good inventory of the puppies. It just seems like I face way more abbots and thornrose mages than enchantresses. With the higher initiative, the abbots and mages take some of the teeth out of the puppies' bite before they have a chance to move. Then, when they reach the mages, they seem to always be in range of whatever counter unit is in the lineup. That means I take higher losses, so I usually opt for the light range, especially if I can keep them out of range of the counter unit. If the enemy light melee are hellhounds, pairing them with frogs works great for that since the frogs have a higher initiative than the hellhounds (but not the enemy cerebus) so the frogs can kill them before they get a chance to move at all.
It was probably an overstatement to say I violate the pentagon 'all the time'. I do so whenever the situation looks good for it. The light range and blossom mages are also units of choice because I always have a minimum of one ELR and one MMM placed and frequently have 2 of each of those buildings active. Pair those with 2 UUU's or one UUU/one DA and those units take way less damage, too.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
@samidodamage From your posts and the way you talk about Blossom Mages I am guessing you play primarily as elvish. And I agree that Blossoms are the best mage unit available for an elf. Have you ever played a human city? If so, what do you think about Priests vs Blossom Mages?
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Never played human, so no experience with Priests. From what I've heard, they're one of the best units in the game and I'd guess humans would most likely substitute them for blossoms in any of the scenarios I've mentioned.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
I just skimmed the answers but I'd say that range is more important than the pentagon quite often.
E.g. If the enemy line up has 3 Mages and 2 light range the pentagon would point you to using light melee, but using all archers instead can result in fewer or even zero losses with the right terrain.
With a decent Needles, a UUU or DA complimenting an ELR I often send all archers in the spire even when they are the wrong type and take almost no losses.
Likewise, even if they are the "wrong" mage type in a situation, Priests and Blossoms are pretty consistently better than Banshees.

Also, clearing the spire every week and using the rewards to get/craft use a sustainable amount of 5-day buildings is a game-changer.
The second game-changer comes with the timewarp which effectively doubles how many 5-day buildings you can use if you time things right.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Every week I do at least 20x6. I rarely loose an autofight battle. I have, every week, my fire phoenix fed, 1 ELR, 1 UUU (or DA on harder weeks), and 1 MM. My strategy is to use Light Ranged and Mages against most things (the light ranged depends on if the enemy is mostly mages or mostly heavy melee). I avoid using light melee except of occasional Drone Rider because they have a much better movement range and can hit light ranged enemies.

But, overall I think the number of enemy types is the key factor, even more than squad sizes. So here's my strategy.

1 enemy type -- 5 of the best against it

2 enemy types -- It's 3 and 2 and I pick 3 of the best against the three and 2 of the best against the other -- sometimes this means 5 of one type, but most of the time it's 3+2. I put the ranged in front of the mages and melee.

3 enemy types -- If one type has 3 and the other are one each I look for 5 of something good against the 3 if they are pretty good against at least one of the other two. If it's 2+2+1 I look for something good against the first 2, something good against the second 2 and if the third is not good against either of the two I've chosen, I go with 3+2 with ranged (light or heavy) having the preference. If it's 2+2+1 and the "1" is good against either or both of the 2 I choose, I try to order it so whatever I send against the odd one is very strong against it and goes out first.

4 enemy types. Usually this is a 2+1+1 +1 and I find something that is good against the 2 and good against one of the others. That's almost always the case. In other words, I usually have something that is good against 3 of them even if they are different types. The other two are handled by sending whatever is good against them.

5 enemy types This is, as you know, the hardest. I first consider if anything is good against at least two of them. If so I go for 2 of those. Then is anything good against any of the other 2. Again, pick two of the best against those. Finally, the lone wolf. If it's nothing too good against anything I have I will probably just add one to one of the types I've already chosen. If it's good against something I've chosen I try to pick what's good against it and put that in first so it goes out first. Rarely I see where there are five types and nothing usable I have is good against 2 of them. In those cases I pretty much match up one by one and count on my ELR, UUU, and Fire Phoenix to make up for the situations. It usually does.

All this is mediated by my opening comments. I mean when I consider what's "good against" I consider that my light ranged are better at this point and my mages are better at this point so I may pick them over what the pyramid says are best. Like I said, I seldom lose a battle and auto-fight everything so I must be doing something right.

That's my method. Hope it helps.

AJ
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
Never played human, so no experience with Priests. From what I've heard, they're one of the best units in the game and I'd guess humans would most likely substitute them for blossoms in any of the scenarios I've mentioned.
I have not yet gotten far enough in the game I have 3 star Blossom Mages. I do have 2 star BMs, and my 3 star Priests are slightly better. Priests are actually quite a bit better against Heavy Ranged, which is way more likely to get a shot off. If you are using long ranged mage units and enemy Heavy Melee units actually get an attack off, then something has gone horribly wrong with the battle plan...
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
I just skimmed the answers but I'd say that range is more important than the pentagon quite often.
E.g. If the enemy line up has 3 Mages and 2 light range the pentagon would point you to using light melee, but using all archers instead can result in fewer or even zero losses with the right terrain.
With a decent Needles, a UUU or DA complimenting an ELR I often send all archers in the spire even when they are the wrong type and take almost no losses.
Likewise, even if they are the "wrong" mage type in a situation, Priests and Blossoms are pretty consistently better than Banshees.

Also, clearing the spire every week and using the rewards to get/craft use a sustainable amount of 5-day buildings is a game-changer.
The second game-changer comes with the timewarp which effectively doubles how many 5-day buildings you can use if you time things right.

"With the right terrain" being the important words there. I don't get to pick the terrain, so I don't think it's fair to compare results with optimal terrain. (Side note: While it is possible to scout by going in and surrendering immediately, how often do people do this? It's pretty slow.)

I've never tried to conserve 5-day buildings because I have a ton. I even turned a bunch into shards before the Spire, but I have enough left over still. From the sound of it, I guess I'm lucky in consistently winning Dwarven Armorers. (I've got 1 DA down now and 4 DA, 4 UU, 3 MMM, and 2 ELR left in my inventory). That's not a ton in reserve, but I'm also not trying to conserve them either.

On the other hand, being creative with timing violates my #1 rule in gaming -- don't let the game dictate my schedule. I can and do quit games when they constrain my schedule too much. Yes, it would be possible to hit 2 spires and 2 tournaments in a 5 day span, but that's a lot of tight constraints on my schedule for those 5 days every other week. In other words, not worth the QoL hit for me.

For me, it's good enough to do Tu-Fr 1 spire and 1 tournament.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
On the other hand, being creative with timing violates my #1 rule in gaming -- don't let the game dictate my schedule.
It's interesting, I have the same rule with the opposite result. I like having a super open schedule so I've cranked up my timewarp to almost level 30 and now I can do everything in a day. E.G. today was wide open (not that I'm super busy during the pandemic) so I did all 6 rounds of the tournament and the spire from start to finish.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
I'm largely a self-taught player, so I know the basics, but it's always possible that I've missed something and (swallowing my pride for a moment), it's always possible to learn. Plus, combat has changed in the past 2+ years -- the AI has gotten better (possibly only obvious if you've taken a long break from the game, but I swear it was different two years ago), encounters have more mixed types, and multi-wave battles are a thing. Also, we now have full 3 stars on all troops, unlike two years ago.

As for combat guides, they really haven't been updated for all these changes. Plus, all the ones I've read seem to boil down to:

Basic strategy: Respect the pentagon.
Advanced strategy: Don't rush the enemy. Order determines starting position. You can fight and quit to see the layout before selecting troops for real.

I'm looking for tips that are different from these two, particularly when to violate those rules. For example, I keep reading that people love frogs (and I've just unlocked three stars on them, which is what's prompting me to write). However, if you only wanted to respect the pentagon, you'd only deploy them against light melee troops. (Or maybe people only do that, but appreciate how effective they are against light melee.) Not to mention, the greater variety of troop types encountered (I've seen a battle with all 5 troop types), troop selection is more complicated than it once was.

What tips do you have that goes beyond the tips above? Especially, when do you violate the pentagon? (There are exceptions for "Don't rush the enemy", but those are more obvious.)

Interesting topic,

And the answer is "it depends"

The combat triangle is mostly flawed.
Melee combat units are a lot weaker than ranged units. this disadvantage makes it that sometimes neutral units with range are better than "optimal melee units" in a neutral game.

When we include in the game combat boosters like the fire bird, magnificient mage multiplier and enlightened light range,
Also wonders like needles of the storm, temple of toads and dragon abbey, then the combat triangle almost fully switches to ranged units only.

Ranged units have a always "first strike" and ofter first 2 strikes capability. when you increase there damage potential it instantly makes them very very powerfull. remember that every dead enemy unit cannot strike back
If to that mix you also add special powers that weaken/destroy the enemies defence bonus, then you can even annihalite your direct enemy.

For example I often run a 150-250% attack bonus on my mage units during a tournament
Since blossom mages have the blossom winds power that destroys 30% of the enemies defence it's my favorite unit agains thiefs (light melee)

Thieves have a 60% defence bonus agains mages. since the blossom mage whack 30% of it's defence (100%+60%)/0.7 =112%
Yes this is inno math, you just removed with your 30% defence remover 48% of it's defence capabilities.
The higher the defence the more you remove.
This makes any range unit with this power that you can boost it's attack extremely powerfull.
Even thieves in a tournament battle where they are 200% of my size or more it usually only takes 2-3 hits to bring it down. and since your range is 5 it can hit the enemy and stay out of danger at the same time.

While this is most effective at manual combat, this effect is also very very prominent at autobattles.
As an elf player on all 9 tournaments combined I use about 80% pro ranger / blossom mage, with a dash of elite archers and poison dryads where some AI flaws are beneficial, or just because I need to het rid of those units since I got to many. about 15% are granite golems and frog princes with a dash of senior orc strategist and less than 5% are vallorian veteran and sinister cerberus with a little dash of "free sword fighters and venom drone riders that I get from my wonders.

This is all because the power of range is far superior to the power of melee.
since you almost always have priority on the battle field, you can pretty much destroy any thread in 1 shot or at least eliminate it to almost zero before they have a chance to retailliate.

Mistwalkers are the bane of your existence they always strike first as they are the fastest unit in game, this means that no matter what you do, you will get hit and will get hurt a lot.
The AI issue is that mistwalkers in round 1 have a favorite order in which they attack your units.

Sorceres​
Dryad​
Archer​
Blossom​
Banshee​
Treant​
Ranger​
Drone Rider​
Sword Dancer​
Cerberus​
Frog Prince​
Orc Warrior​
Golem​
This means you have an option to somewhat choose which units takes that first hit (assuming the map doesnt screw you over)
So when you are on a map where your blossom mages have an easy job except for that pesky mistwalker, a mistwalker kan destroy a unit of blossom mages with 1 strike, but it does limited damage to other light ranged units.
With this you can redirect it's first strike to a dryad or archer unit instead of your blossom mages this can in the right circumstances limit your losses in a battle dramatically.

My most favorite unit is the blossom mage, not only does it have an amazing defence breaker, it also can target that enemy you might not be able to kill that 1 round and limit it's damage capability with it's flower power attack power breaker. it's very versatile as long as it doesn't oppose a bunch of light range units, those are it's only weakness. in autocombat orcs can also be a weak spot as your mage runs into it's range and it has low HP (dies quickly) but a very high attack,

Elite archers and pro rangers also have this benefit of 20%/30% defence breaking, with the advantage that the pro ranger is the fastest unit after the mistwalker and has a superior walking range for the price of less HP. remeber that if you hit hard and first your enemy will have a limited ability to retailliate. so first strike is very powerfull. this is also why melee units fail as they give that first strike capability to the enemy, so by the time they reach that enemy they are already severly weakened.
Granite golem has a good HP, damage and a +10% defence breaker and frog princes a low HP low damage but the 30% defence breaker + super range are super effective as long as you are stronger on the battlefield than your opponent, once you lost the battlefield advantage the granite golem becomes superior to the frog prince as it hits harder and has better survivability.

Martial monestary/Sanctuary, unleashed unit upgrades and dwarver armouries are therefore also lifesavers as they reduce your losses enough for you to gain the upper hand and shoot ot throw or spit your enemy to pieces. every unit that does not die, ga do damage in return limiting the enemies ability to hurt you. each round the battle takes compounds it beneficial effect.
 
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CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
It's interesting, I have the same rule with the opposite result. I like having a super open schedule so I've cranked up my timewarp to almost level 30 and now I can do everything in a day. E.G. today was wide open (not that I'm super busy during the pandemic) so I did all 6 rounds of the tournament and the spire from start to finish.

I always played the scedule,
Then timewarp was introduced, I worked very hard to get that one to 30 ASAP and then went for a 1 day scedule.
Which is still a schedule if you need to walke up saterday early morning to go play the tournaments.

The the polar bear was introduced and since then, I would not want to go back, it's amazing to decide I want to play tournaments for the next 2 hours en then ignore it for the entire week lol.

it's absolutely amazing when you have no waiting time and you can just totally play it whenever you like.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
@samidodamage From your posts and the way you talk about Blossom Mages I am guessing you play primarily as elvish. And I agree that Blossoms are the best mage unit available for an elf. Have you ever played a human city? If so, what do you think about Priests vs Blossom Mages?

Pries is much better, but... as in my example of 2 posts earlier, assuming the priest has the same priority as the sorceres, blossom might be better in cases where mistwalkers are involved.
They only way to really know it to test and play and learn to see if that works.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Then the polar bear was introduced
I missed the bear event but came back in time for the moonbear and was able to convert some artifacts. While deciding between brown and polar they opened up the training queues for all 3 buildings so I went polar.
Now my whole plan is for inno to replace phoenix artifacts in the spire and add bears so I can finish my polar.
1h tournament cooldown is great, but zero cooldown would be amazing.
So yeah, I spent my lifesavings of KP down to 500 from many thousands to get that TW to 30 based on a theory of something that might never happen LoL :eek:
I mean I could have got my MM to level 30 instead for a guaranteed bonus close to putting down a permanent UUU, but the chance of pure schedule freedom was too tempting.
 

TalimSwift

Active Member
Ya i can imagine the huge advantage of having zero cooldown. I mean, me being in Elementals only, i ahve to wait the 16 hours. So i open up as many as i think i can handle, leaving a few unopened in case my troops get smashed a bit too much. I can open them later
But with zero cooldown you can actually open and close maps one by one to 6 stars, working yourself deeper once you retrain troops, whereas i have to do a bit of guess work about how much later rounds will cost me on each map.
Cant wait for the time warp :)
 

TalimSwift

Active Member
Oh ann not counting the fact you can use just one pet food per week if you bundle everything in same day, i have to use 2 if i decide to push each map more than 2 rounds
 
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