Combat Beyond the Pentagon

[SoggyShorts]

with zero cooldown you can actually open and close maps one by one to 6 stars

Also, I believe the map is the same every star, so you don't need to remember that(for example) in province #21 this week you have that wall of bushes in front of your troops making the use of melee a suicide mission. Once you fail hard on the first star (and scout it to see why) you can repeat your successful setup for the rest.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Also, I believe the map is the same every star, so you don't need to remember that(for example) in province #21 this week you have that wall of bushes in front of your troops making the use of melee a suicide mission. Once you fail hard on the first star (and scout it to see why) you can repeat your successful setup for the rest.

correct,

When I sometimes decide to play manual, I make a screenshot of the first battle, this helps a lot in the aditional 5 battles.

Oh ann not counting the fact you can use just one pet food per week if you bundle everything in same day, i have to use 2 if i decide to push each map more than 2 rounds

if you do it well 3 per 2 weeks.
2x fire bird 1x polar bear.

 

[TalimSwift]

i dont have polar bear

 

[SoggyShorts]

i dont have polar bear

The base should be craftable in the MA, and even at level 1 it gives a 10% reduction which IMO is still worth it for anyone without a timewarp because 14.4h between tournament rounds is WAY better than 16h for anyone who wants a normal work/school/sleep schedule.

 

[Darth Lothlorien]

As a manual fighter with all troops at 3star, fully evolved Fire Chicken, available military boost bldgs of all types, and military AW's at decent (16+) levels, I violate the pentagon all the time. I tend to favor ranged troops over melee; the longer range the better. I rarely use dogs against enemy mages because of their low initiative and their poor health when compared to archers or rangers for example. I'll opt for Blossom Mage against enemy heavy range over the banshee or sorceress due to their range and initiative as well. That's when I'm going with the pentagon, just not using specialized troops.
Some examples of violating the pentagon:
Frogs are good against other heavy range troops due to both their range and they have the highest initiative of any heavy range troops in the game, so they get first strike against enemy heavy range. They're also decent against the slow moving heavy melee, especially the Orc Generals who don't have that great of health. The Knights are the exception to this unless it's just one due to their higher health and slightly longer strike range. Obviously, I don't go with frogs if the enemy is mostly heavy melee, but a couple of Orc Generals and I'll go with 5 frogs if the enemy is a light melee/heavy melee mix.
If it's a light range/heavy melee mix, I sometimes use rangers. Due to their range, initiative and strike back they can be good against other light range and they're decent against the heavy melee. I very seldom use dryads. Archers can be useful when the only enemy heavy range is an orc deserter. Those units are specialized against your light melee troops and have no defense buff against light range (they do have a small attack boost against them). But, if you can strike first, the archer can do some damage. So, if the archer is helpful in a given lineup, having one orc deserter won't stop me from sending them in.
Blossom Mages are excellent against enemy mages due to their initiative and range. So, in a heavy range/mage mix, I'll go with 5 blossoms instead of a couple of archers/rangers/dogs for the enemy mages. Also, I'll mix Blossoms with light range in some fights where there are enemy light range. I hold the blossoms back, send the archers or rangers out, and the enemy light range will target my light range (that have hopefully hit them once already) due to their higher initiative, leaving the blossoms alone. The only enemy light range that really bothers me is the Mist Walker. With the highest initiative in the game, highest movement range for light ranged troops, and heavy attack buffs against mages, I hate them, lol! Orc Strats have a better attack/defense buff against them than frogs, but they get first strike almost every single time. If the terrain is such they can't move on their first turn, then I'll use frogs to get them before they can move. Again, while that's not using specialized troops, it's not directly violating the pentagon either.
Keep in mind that when manually fighting, I have the option to skip turns, move out of enemy range and wait for them to come to me. None of these things is possible with auto fighting.

@samidodamage BEST SUMMARY OF COMBAT TACTICS I'VE EVER READ ON THESE FORUMS!!! kudos to you for ACTUALLY knowing HOW to fight manually n logically; n i couldn't agree w/you more about the mist walkers...like Anakin said in "Attack of the Clones" after sand people killed his mom: "I killed them. I killed them all. They're dead, every single one of them. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I HATE THEM!"

 

[Darth Lothlorien]

Yep, rangers can be tricky to use. They're best with terrain that includes a lot of obstacles they can use to avoid any enemy light melee and stay far enough away from enemy heavy melee. They're less useful against the Knights due to this as well. Sometimes my rangers seem to do better against enemy bandits and wild archers (neither of which has strike back abilities) than my archers just because of the extra hex in the ranger movement range. My archers can't always reach the enemy for the first strike. Rangers reach them, hit them first, then when they get hit with a weaker enemy light range, they kill a few more with the strike back. Usually the enemy is gone by the 2nd hit from the ranger. My Needles and Monastery are both also at lvl 21, so I'm sure that helps a bunch. Free archers make them the unit of choice most of the time unless its mostly mages in the enemy lineup, though.
I train and keep a good inventory of the puppies. It just seems like I face way more abbots and thornrose mages than enchantresses. With the higher initiative, the abbots and mages take some of the teeth out of the puppies' bite before they have a chance to move. Then, when they reach the mages, they seem to always be in range of whatever counter unit is in the lineup. That means I take higher losses, so I usually opt for the light range, especially if I can keep them out of range of the counter unit. If the enemy light melee are hellhounds, pairing them with frogs works great for that since the frogs have a higher initiative than the hellhounds (but not the enemy cerebus) so the frogs can kill them before they get a chance to move at all.
It was probably an overstatement to say I violate the pentagon 'all the time'. I do so whenever the situation looks good for it. The light range and blossom mages are also units of choice because I always have a minimum of one ELR and one MMM placed and frequently have 2 of each of those buildings active. Pair those with 2 UUU's or one UUU/one DA and those units take way less damage, too.

n you're also right about abbots, they're a close 2nd when it comes to most annoying enemies...range of thornroses n hit like enchantresses. i'm only in ch.11, but i still have a level-12 needles, level-8 monastery, n 5th-stage fire phoenix (just started last march, n used those damned coldfire artifacts on both fire n storm phoenixes...2-for-1 artifact crafting BS), plus a bunch of level-1 frogs thanks to the witch's hut n brown bear.

n i get that ELR=enlightened light range, MMM=magnificent mage multiplier, n UUU=unleashed units upgrade; but what is DA? (only thing i can thing of is Dragon Abbey, unless you mean something else? b/c the abbey only helps attack boost, not health...)

 

[SoggyShorts]

but what is DA?

Dwarven Armorer won in the spire from chests. It is a 2x3 building with the exact same properties as 2xUUU

 

[Darth Lothlorien]

@samidodamage From your posts and the way you talk about Blossom Mages I am guessing you play primarily as elvish. And I agree that Blossoms are the best mage unit available for an elf. Have you ever played a human city? If so, what do you think about Priests vs Blossom Mages?

just starting a human city, n from what i've experienced going against them, priests/abbots are a stronger unit than blossom mages, best combo of attack strength n health/HP...is this what you were implying?

 

[Darth Lothlorien]

Interesting topic,

And the answer is "it depends"

The combat triangle is mostly flawed.
Melee combat units are a lot weaker than ranged units. this disadvantage makes it that sometimes neutral units with range are better than "optimal melee units" in a neutral game.

When we include in the game combat boosters like the fire bird, magnificient mage multiplier and enlightened light range,
Also wonders like needles of the storm, temple of toads and dragon abbey, then the combat triangle almost fully switches to ranged units only.

Ranged units have a always "first strike" and ofter first 2 strikes capability. when you increase there damage potential it instantly makes them very very powerfull. remember that every dead enemy unit cannot strike back
If to that mix you also add special powers that weaken/destroy the enemies defence bonus, then you can even annihalite your direct enemy.

For example I often run a 150-250% attack bonus on my mage units during a tournament
Since blossom mages have the blossom winds power that destroys 30% of the enemies defence it's my favorite unit agains thiefs (light melee)

Thieves have a 60% defence bonus agains mages. since the blossom mage whack 30% of it's defence (100%+60%)/0.7 =112%
Yes this is inno math, you just removed with your 30% defence remover 48% of it's defence capabilities.
The higher the defence the more you remove.
This makes any range unit with this power that you can boost it's attack extremely powerfull.
Even thieves in a tournament battle where they are 200% of my size or more it usually only takes 2-3 hits to bring it down. and since your range is 5 it can hit the enemy and stay out of danger at the same time.

While this is most effective at manual combat, this effect is also very very prominent at autobattles.
As an elf player on all 9 tournaments combined I use about 80% pro ranger / blossom mage, with a dash of elite archers and poison dryads where some AI flaws are beneficial, or just because I need to het rid of those units since I got to many. about 15% are granite golems and frog princes with a dash of senior orc strategist and less than 5% are vallorian veteran and sinister cerberus with a little dash of "free sword fighters and venom drone riders that I get from my wonders.

This is all because the power of range is far superior to the power of melee.
since you almost always have priority on the battle field, you can pretty much destroy any thread in 1 shot or at least eliminate it to almost zero before they have a chance to retailliate.

Mistwalkers are the bane of your existence they always strike first as they are the fastest unit in game, this means that no matter what you do, you will get hit and will get hurt a lot.
The AI issue is that mistwalkers in round 1 have a favorite order in which they attack your units.

Sorceres​

Dryad​

Archer​

Blossom​

Banshee​

Treant​

Ranger​

Drone Rider​

Sword Dancer​

Cerberus​

Frog Prince​

Orc Warrior​

Golem​

This means you have an option to somewhat choose which units takes that first hit (assuming the map doesnt screw you over)
So when you are on a map where your blossom mages have an easy job except for that pesky mistwalker, a mistwalker kan destroy a unit of blossom mages with 1 strike, but it does limited damage to other light ranged units.
With this you can redirect it's first strike to a dryad or archer unit instead of your blossom mages this can in the right circumstances limit your losses in a battle dramatically.

My most favorite unit is the blossom mage, not only does it have an amazing defence breaker, it also can target that enemy you might not be able to kill that 1 round and limit it's damage capability with it's flower power attack power breaker. it's very versatile as long as it doesn't oppose a bunch of light range units, those are it's only weakness. in autocombat orcs can also be a weak spot as your mage runs into it's range and it has low HP (dies quickly) but a very high attack,

Elite archers and pro rangers also have this benefit of 20%/30% defence breaking, with the advantage that the pro ranger is the fastest unit after the mistwalker and has a superior walking range for the price of less HP. remeber that if you hit hard and first your enemy will have a limited ability to retailliate. so first strike is very powerfull. this is also why melee units fail as they give that first strike capability to the enemy, so by the time they reach that enemy they are already severly weakened.
Granite golem has a good HP, damage and a +10% defence breaker and frog princes a low HP low damage but the 30% defence breaker + super range are super effective as long as you are stronger on the battlefield than your opponent, once you lost the battlefield advantage the granite golem becomes superior to the frog prince as it hits harder and has better survivability.

Martial monestary/Sanctuary, unleashed unit upgrades and dwarver armouries are therefore also lifesavers as they reduce your losses enough for you to gain the upper hand and shoot ot throw or spit your enemy to pieces. every unit that does not die, ga do damage in return limiting the enemies ability to hurt you. each round the battle takes compounds it beneficial effect.

...?? a mist walker will choose to hit an archer or dryad BEFORE hitting a banshee or blossom mage, even when they're both in range??? you've seen this during manual battles?

 

[Darth Lothlorien]

Dwarven Armorer won in the spire from chests. It is a 2x3 building with the exact same properties as 2xUUU

yeah, just realized that as i kept reading thru this thread, but thx...i should've been able 2 figure that out, seeing as how i currently have 4 in my inventory

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

...?? a mist walker will choose to hit an archer or dryad BEFORE hitting a banshee or blossom mage, even when they're both in range??? you've seen this during manual battles?

Is there another way to observe these facts?
Beware that this is 1st round behavior only, in the second round there behavior often changes a little. but for a first round this is the behavior they will always display.

 

[Henroo]

just starting a human city, n from what i've experienced going against them, priests/abbots are a stronger unit than blossom mages, best combo of attack strength n health/HP...is this what you were implying?

Priests also get better bonuses against heavy ranged than Blossom Mages do. But what is probably the single biggest thing that makes Priests so good is the Divine Curse special ability, which reduces an opponent's defense by 40%. It makes the 2nd attack do so much more damage. Even units that are favored against mages such as light ranged or light melee can have trouble standing up to multiple hits from Priests.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Priests also get better bonuses against heavy ranged than Blossom Mages do. But what is probably the single biggest thing that makes Priests so good is the Divine Curse special ability, which reduces an opponent's defense by 40%. It makes the 2nd attack do so much more damage. Even units that are favored against mages such as light ranged or light melee can have trouble standing up to multiple hits from Priests.

Priest are superior to blossom in every way, blossom are poor replacements for elves, simply the next best thing, they only thing they might not be superior in assuming that sorceres and priest are on the same "mistwalker scale" is diversion tactics as I described earlier.

Would it be better for a group of super blossoms (aka priests) to take the hit from mistwalkers as they have a superior HP compared to, or would it be better to use a crossbowmen or dryad as a diversion tactic and let them take the blow.

With blossom this is often the best tactic, but as I do not play with priests on a high level I do not know which of the 2 would be better for human players.

 

[Henroo]

Priest are superior to blossom in every way, blossom are poor replacements for elves, simply the next best thing, they only thing they might not be superior in assuming that sorceres and priest are on the same "mistwalker scale" is diversion tactics as I described earlier.

Would it be better for a group of super blossoms (aka priests) to take the hit from mistwalkers as they have a superior HP compared to, or would it be better to use a crossbowmen or dryad as a diversion tactic and let them take the blow.

With blossom this is often the best tactic, but as I do not play with priests on a high level I do not know which of the 2 would be better for human players.

If it is just 1 Mistwalker I would only use Priests, assuming the rest of the enemy force is something the Priests are good against. Take the 1 hit and then burn the Mistwalker down with multiple shots from Priests so it does not get off a 2nd attack.

 

[ekarat]

The base should be craftable in the MA, and even at level 1 it gives a 10% reduction which IMO is still worth it for anyone without a timewarp because 14.4h between tournament rounds is WAY better than 16h for anyone who wants a normal work/school/sleep schedule.

It's not anymore, or at least I don't have one and have never seen one in the MA, which makes me believe it is no longer available.

 

[SoggyShorts]

It's not anymore, or at least I don't have one and have never seen one in the MA, which makes me believe it is no longer available.

ah crap that sucks.
Maybe Maybe if beta spire changes come to live and the next step there is bears and then that comes here they will add it back into the MA.

 

[Henroo]

ah crap that sucks.
Maybe Maybe if beta spire changes come to live and the next step there is bears and then that comes here they will add it back into the MA.

Even if Bear artifacts are never put into the Spire, it is highly likely that the Bear bases will be put back into the Magic Academy for the next Autumn Zodiac event. It seems to always be bear themed and during the Moonbear event last year the original Bear bases were available for crafting.

 

[SoggyShorts]

if Bear artifacts are never put into the Spire

Blasphemy! I just spent 25,000 KP betting that they will be

 

[Henroo]

Blasphemy! I just spent 25,000 KP betting that they will be

I assume this has something to do with leveling an ancient wonder?

 

[SoggyShorts]

I assume this has something to do with leveling an ancient wonder?

Yeah, the timewarp. A level 30 TW plus my half-leveled polar bear gets me a 95% reduction in tournament cool-down. 5 more bear artifacts makes it a 100% cooldown reduction meaning I can do all 6 starts in a provinces back-to back.