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    Your Elvenar Team

Combat - browser vs mobile

Cleo7311

Active Member
Are there hidden factors in combat that balance out the inability to use manual mode on mobile?

On browser, many times I may try an easy auto fight only to be defeated. Repeating in manual mode I then see yet another evil terrain map that heavily aids the AI. Usually, with that info, I can then win easily, sometimes with the same troops that were beaten on auto. Thus, it would appear that the variable terrain is always present on browser. Does it also vary on mobile? No direct way to determine, unless I exit mobile, start browser, and try manual browser mode.
Has anyone tried this?
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Are there hidden factors in combat that balance out the inability to use manual mode on mobile?
Not that I know of.
Thus, it would appear that the variable terrain is always present on browser.
Well not “always” because if you autofight on browser from unit selection window, you won’t have to load the battlefield either. However, browser players have other options like start manual fight but autofight it once the battlefield loads (still full autofight) or start a manual fight and fight partially, then let it finish rest of battle on autofight (hybrid autofight).

Does it also vary on mobile? No direct way to determine, unless I exit mobile, start browser, and try manual browser mode.
Yes, it varies on mobile because you can switch to browser at any time to see. If you hit a snag on an encounter and observe a bad terrain, you can make a note of it because it will be the same map for that province for all 6 rounds. This is easy to see if you have Polar Bear+Timewarp with no cooldown but you can also use timers to fast forward to next round to confirm it’ll load the same terrain.
 

Cleo7311

Active Member
I never realized that the terrain never changes thru the 6 rounds - that should help - if I can remember it!
 

Flashfyre

Well-Known Member
Tangential question: Do the individual unit abilities (other than the star rating) actually work on the mobile version, since there is no battlefield fight shown (i.e. no terrain map, no tracking of rounds, no selecting of unit positions, etc.), and the lineup during unit selection seems to have no bearing on the end result?
For example, when up against a mix of Heavy Melee and Heavy Ranged units, using a mix of Mage units, it seems that I lose more Banshees than Buddies, and even less Blossoms. Now, I know there are differences between them as to their star ratings that affects the results, but given that my Banshees are 4* vs Hvy Range and my Blossoms are 4* vs Hvy Melee, I do try to use them against the proper enemies.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
***Disclaimer: I could be wrong about all of this!!***
I believe the battles occur on the server, not on the player's device. And, I believe the auto-fighting software used by the game is the same in all battles (world map, tourney, spire). Therefore, the unit abilities remain the same on both user platforms. I think the only difference for mobile is they have no ability to enter the battlefield (to see terrain/manual battle/watch the game auto-fight.
Since (imo) range is king in combat for this game, it makes sense that Blossoms would suffer less losses. Blossoms may have a slight initiative advantage (16 to Banshee's 15), both units move before any HR or HM. This puts Banshees closer to the enemy units. Enemy units use a combination of initiative/range to determine which of the player units they will target.
Blossoms may be specialized against HM, but they have extra abilities vs HR as well. I actually prefer Blossoms over Banshees or Sorceress against HR, especially Cannoneers. They can often reach them on their first move. With my military AW's and temp boost bldgs, Blossoms kill HR in 2 shots.
Note: all my units are 3 star. There may be changes with the 4 star promotion that I'm not seeing by just looking in the Wiki.

*since I get so many Sorceresses by passive production, I still use her to conserve Blossoms that I need to actively produce.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
For example, when up against a mix of Heavy Melee and Heavy Ranged units, using a mix of Mage units, it seems that I lose more Banshees than Buddies, and even less Blossoms. Now, I know there are differences between them as to their star ratings that affects the results, but given that my Banshees are 4* vs Hvy Range and my Blossoms are 4* vs Hvy Melee, I do try to use them against the proper enemies.
I believe the mobile "Star" rating system is based off damage attributes. However, it's the initiative, movement, and range attributes that are probably most important. As @samidodamage explained in the previous post, the initiative order, movement, and range explain why it's the Banshees taking the hit over Blossoms. Once you understand how those 3 factors play together, you can go off the "training wheels" so to speak and mix and match with more custom lineups and go off script, but still be successful.
 

Flashfyre

Well-Known Member
I believe the mobile "Star" rating system is based off damage attributes. However, it's the initiative, movement, and range attributes that are probably most important. As @samidodamage explained in the previous post, the initiative order, movement, and range explain why it's the Banshees taking the hit over Blossoms. Once you understand how those 3 factors play together, you can go off the "training wheels" so to speak and mix and match with more custom lineups and go off script, but still be successful.
Except there is no Initiative, Movement or Range in the mobile app. So there is no way to actually see what each unit is doing, if it's doing anything at all.
I'm really interested in whether the AutoFight we are forced to use in the mobile version actually takes any of that stuff into consideration; it's hard to accept that it does, since there is no evidence showing on the game that.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
I have spent plenty of time using both the browser and the mobile app. I only auto-fight and I have seen no differences between the two.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
it's hard to accept that it does,
I find it harder to accept that it doesn't.
(I'm going to use the term 'AI'; it's not accurate but I'm a lazy typist!)
If the battle itself occurs on the server, that is where the AI actually moves the units and target opponents according to how it's been programmed to do so. Using the mobile app vs using the browser should have no impact on what the AI does on the server to complete a battle. The user device/platform only impacts the ability of the user to view this activity (non-existent on the mobile app; easy to view on browser) and won't effect what actually happens.
I've recently been running auto-fights instead of my usual manual due to time constraints. Doing them on my tablet is faster than browser. It's just all the windows and mouse usage on the browser makes it take longer; the fights themselves take the same amount of time. Plus, I'm more tempted on browser to go in and look at terrain before selecting units, or to go back and manual fight if I lose instead of catering and moving on. Both of those add time to my browser experience as well.
I'm using an old Fire HD 8 and it's having some major issues running the game for the past 2 weeks. So, I do a few on mobile, then switch to browser when I have to uninstall/reinstall the game to get it to work (sometimes; that doesn't always work either!). I see no difference in my losses in auto-fight whether I do the battles on mobile or browser.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Except there is no Initiative, Movement or Range in the mobile app. So there is no way to actually see what each unit is doing, if it's doing anything at all.
I'm really interested in whether the AutoFight we are forced to use in the mobile version actually takes any of that stuff into consideration; it's hard to accept that it does, since there is no evidence showing on the game that.
It does. I autofight one of my cities and manual fight most of my main city (autofight first 15 provinces). I use what I learn from manual fights in autofights. I don't do the "choose 5 of same units" autofight strategy because it's far too inefficient for me. When the battle is over, I can tell by the damage to units that it's behaving as anticipated based on Initiative, Movement, and Range, even if I don't see the battle play out. I've done enough manual fights now that I can play out the first few moves in my head from looking at the enemy's lineup.

You don't need to see things playout technically. Here is the image of the battleboard:
Battlefield.png

From there, you just match this starting position to the stats:

So even without seeing battles playout, you'll be able to see based on movement/range numbers things like only certain units have enough movement and range to reach the enemy on opening round to get a shot off. For example, light range have highest initiative and go first. Bearing no obstacles, they can move forward and shoot someone across from them. However, getting that shot off will now put that light range in the retaliation zone of most of the enemies. That light range can kill an enemy mage on his opening shot, but expect him to take heavy damage when it's the enemy's turn to go. Do I need to know which exact hex AI moved him into or which enemies went after him? No. Hence, the generalness of autofights is just fine if you understand where the movement and range zones are. In autofights, I'm playing the probabilities of their various zones against each other.

Like if I use 4 Archers and 1 Blossom, my autofight results will likely end with my Blossom walking away unscathed. That's how it plays out because the enemies are busy targeting the Archers that moved to the front while Blossom usually hangs out in the back since she has long reach. Another example...if I use 4 Archers against 4 Abbots and I'm somehow getting slaughtered, even without loading the battlefield, I already know that means it's a funnel map preventing my Archers from reaching the Abbots and he's picking me off. It's the range number coming into play. He has longer range than my Archers. He can shoot me, but I can't shoot him back. That means I need to switch to Cerebus so they can run out the funnel and not be sitting ducks, or use Blossoms because they'll be in same range and I'll win that same autofight.

Right now I'm even experimenting with a new strategy where I'll line up Buddy across from a Hellhound in certain situations. On paper, that is an atrocious matchup and if you go by the Star ranking system, you'll probably never think to try this. But again, understanding initiative, movement, and range (and being the self-appointed President of Bud Sorceress Fan Club), this setup will not only be a winning combo, but one where I lose less troops and can work in autofights too!
 

Bellerefon

Active Member
You can go to manual fight, start and push auto-complete button.
Then you can just have the visual of an auto-fight.

I find it extremely difficult that the battle engine changes according to device used.
 

Gkyr

Chef
Right now I'm even experimenting with a new strategy where I'll line up Buddy across from a Hellhound in certain situations. On paper, that is an atrocious matchup and if you go by the Star ranking system, you'll probably never think to try this.
@crackie , I am curious. What are the certain situations that you allude to? It does sound suicidal.
I am in agreement with your posts concerning Mistwalkers and Hellhounds as the two most problematic opponents that we face.
As a supremely risk-averse MF player, I have a keen interest in managing skirmishes with these two.

Specifically, concerning Hellhound dogs, I have begun using the 3*Gruff Orc Warrior, with its five-icon LH attack buff. One strategy consists of retreating the other four units away from the dogs' range, even at the expense of exposing them to Mage first strikes and allowing the dog to reach the GOW, which is bad news for the dog. Interestingly, there are some situations where the dog will prefer to go after the GOW, even though the dog is at a disadvantage and the GOW is at the bottom of the initiative order and other units are within range. I have not tracked this occurrence with enough detail to be able to present a cogent report on when and why this may happen.

But back to you:
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I have a keen interest in managing skirmishes with these two.
I've only recently started using Buddy again, and I'm mostly auto-fighting atm, so I don't have any 'suicidal' strategies for Buddy, but I do for Blossoms! It especially helped when my Frogs were still 2*:
If there's only the one Hellhound, line the Blossom up to strike it. The Frog will take a turn before the Hellhound and with the Blossom's reduced defense debuff on the Hellhound, the Frog will take it out. Once my Frogs made 3*, two Frogs will take out a Hellhound, so I need Blossom's help less.
As far as a Mist Walker present when I want to use Blossoms as my primary attack? I put in 2 Archers (I get a lot of them from passive production so it matters less to me that they will take on significant damage or outright die) with 3 Blossoms. Focus the Archers on the MW (the MW will strike an Archer if their only choice is between Archer and Blossom) and clean up any leftovers with a Blossom. Clean-up is not usually necessary because the first Archer delivers a defense debuff to the MW and the 2nd Archer usually takes them out. If the rest of the enemy troops are HR, I spend the rest of the battle having each Archer deliver a defense debuff to a different HR unit (while they survive) so the Blossoms can take them out quicker.
 

Flashfyre

Well-Known Member
All this talk of tactics and buffs and movement rates and initiatives and health points and attack strengths and everything is all good information, but it's immaterial when discussing fighting on the mobile app, because none of that is even visible to us. I couldn't tell you which unit has the best initiative, or the slowest speed, or the worst attack strength, because I can't see anything about my units other than their # of stars (levels) and # of swords (how they fare against 1 of 2 specific enemy units).

Add to that the fact that it doesn't matter in which sequence I select units, they all get rearranged at the end of the fight. I can put a Lt Melee unit in the last slot and, when the fight is over, it's magically moved to the first slot. So I don't know whether there is any strategy that mobile users can use, or is it all just blind RNG chance?
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
@Flashfyre
I have a lot of sympathy for mobile-only players when it comes to combat. I have no idea how I would have learned to understand the combat system without the ability to see the battlefield and watch how the AI moves/targets opponents.
The only option for mobile-only players is described in @crackie's post here.
The pic she provided is from the Wiki (it's under the 'Battle' button) and the link underneath that pic is to the Wiki tables that show all those stats for all the units in the game that are not displayed in-game on the mobile app. Note: those tables show the attack strength and health (hit points) of ONE unit, not a squad. Ex: (made up numbers here, lol!) If the unit shows an attack strength of 10 and your squad is made up of 50 units, the squad would have an attack strength of 500. You can get to the Wiki on mobile from the gear icon. Click the 'help' tab at the bottom of that window and the button to go to the Wiki is below the one for going to the forums. For some reason, that's the only info available to mobile-only players on how the battle system works.
The problem, as I see it:
I'm not sure I would ever have taken the time/energy to try to understand the battle system by just reading the stats in the Wiki and applying them to the pic of the battleground when I could not see that in action. It would have been very hard for me and taken much longer. Not sure I would have stuck with it.

Edit to add: The display at the end of a fight showing the results has no bearing on how the fights themselves occurred. The results display is the same for manual fights. At some point long ago (when there were fewer features in the game to worry ourselves about, lol!) there was an effort to make sense out of how the game displays those results. I think there was even a consensus at least on how it works even if it did seem pretty arbitrary to me. But I can't remember the details now, lol. I'm old. I'm hard pressed to remember what happened last week sometimes!
 
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Raccon

Well-Known Member
Add to that the fact that it doesn't matter in which sequence I select units, they all get rearranged at the end of the fight. I can put a Lt Melee unit in the last slot and, when the fight is over, it's magically moved to the first slot. So I don't know whether there is any strategy that mobile users can use, or is it all just blind RNG chance?
I don't think troop position means anything in mobile app auto fight for the same rason you just mentioned.
Recently I switched to auto fight due to lack of time however, I manual fought alot and I'm well aware of which troop types combinations are best suited for different enemy combinations and I tried to use the same experience in mobile app auto fight with disappointing results. But after reading comments here about using various troop types in mobile auto fight, I decided to gave it another try, I used an archer and four blossoms facing an enemy with one archer two abbots and two HRs, I lost half squad ofarchers and half squad of blossoms. I did a similar encounter with five blossoms and lost only half squad of blossoms. I did try with other combinations in mobile auto fight and the results ain't as good as using one troop type though!
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
@Raccon
The AI does perform better when using only one troop type on auto-fight. It's the same for auto-fight on browser. Most of the time I use more than one troop type on auto-fight, there's a situation like 1 MW, 1 Bandit, 2 Cannoneers and a Knight. I'm going with 2 Archers/3 Blossoms in that fight even on auto.
As I said in the post above yours, the results window displays the same messed up positions on browser for auto and manual fights; it has nothing to do with how the fight occurred.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
@crackie , I am curious. What are the certain situations that you allude to? It does sound suicidal.
It's similar to the situation @samidodamage described.
If there's only the one Hellhound, line the Blossom up to strike it. The Frog will take a turn before the Hellhound and with the Blossom's reduced defense debuff on the Hellhound, the Frog will take it out.
I don't have 3* Frogs yet so I'd need 3+ Frogs in the mid/upper provinces to kill that pesky Hellhound. Since I can't afford to use 3 of 5 slots on Frogs alone, I've concluded it's better to have Buddy play sous chef to prep up that Hellhound for a Frog hit instead of Blossom. Buddy's Leaden Arms (-20% buff) is slightly lower than Blossom's Blossom Winds (-30% buff), but since I know I can't kill that Hellround before he acts anyway, he might as well bite me with a 50% debuff, and only Buddy can tag him with both a buff and debuff. So now instead of biting me with maybe 60% of his original strength, he's now only going to bite me at maybe 30%. which is more along the lines of a surface scratch. Buddy also has the highest health stats of the mages so she can handle the bite better. The key here is also the secondary unit Buddy is going to face off against after that Hellhound is usually a Heavy Range so it's a niche scenario.
All this talk of tactics and buffs and movement rates and initiatives and health points and attack strengths and everything is all good information, but it's immaterial when discussing fighting on the mobile app, because none of that is even visible to us. I couldn't tell you which unit has the best initiative, or the slowest speed, or the worst attack strength, because I can't see anything about my units other than their # of stars (levels) and # of swords (how they fare against 1 of 2 specific enemy units).
It's in the wiki as I've linked above too. Like I've said, you only need to reference the battle map image from the wiki too. It will feel completely overwhelming at first when you see so many units listed, but they get lumped into general categories. For example, the Initiatives follow class type for the most part (with exception being Hellhound): Light Range->Mages->Light Melee->Heavy Range->Heavy Melee. If you want to go more nuanced, you learn the order within each class too. Same with Range and Movement. A lot of them share the same number so they all go into same bucket and you'd only need to know like 4 major groups, which is far less overwhelming. It looks like @samidodamage, @Gkyr, and I are all averaging 8000+ in tourney so players like us benefit from understanding the nuance and look for small advantages because they add up in the upper provinces. Alternatively, someone in my FS was complaining about lack of Pet Food and the #1 tourney guy in our group simply replied, "You don't have to feed your Fire Phoenix if you use 7 buff buildings." So yeah, you can go nuance or use a blunt instrument and they'll both get the job done. :D
Add to that the fact that it doesn't matter in which sequence I select units, they all get rearranged at the end of the fight. I can put a Lt Melee unit in the last slot and, when the fight is over, it's magically moved to the first slot. So I don't know whether there is any strategy that mobile users can use, or is it all just blind RNG chance?
For the multi-wave battles in the Spire, the second round gets sorted by Initiative order I believe. It happens whether you manual fight or autofight.
 
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