Concise writing

[Tehya1]

The former, I believe, invites reading.

This is entirely subjective. If your style is pretentious, boring, clunky, etc to someone, then it is a wall of text to that person, and no amount of education makes up for these percieved flaws to someone who just doesn't connect with your writing. You might have avid fans of your writing, but to that one person or those people, diving in to see what you have to say is not worth the bother.

 

[Iyapo]

Not helpful things are those which express an opinion but give no examples or useful advice in how to change it.

I have to be honest, it never occurred to me you wanted examples or useful advice on how to change it. I assumed it was a deliberate choice.

 

[ajqtrz]

This is entirely subjective. If your style is pretentious, boring, clunky, etc to someone, then it is a wall of text to that person, and no amount of education makes up for these percieved flaws to someone who just doesn't connect with your writing. You might have avid fans of your writing, but to that one person or those people, diving in to see what you have to say is not worth the bother.

I agree. If my style is pretentious, boring, clunky, etc to someone, it is exactly that. But the person saying those things almost never says, "I find his style 'boring, clunky, etc..." He/she usually says, "I didn't read it as it was a wall of text," or something like that, a comment which seems to be a statement about the writer who, one supposes, shouldn't write such things! Labeling anything a "wall of text" in the context of this or any forum, is not a compliment.

On the other hand if somebody does produce and publish a wall of text, as I define it, the insult may be deserved. But a "wall of text" is not a certain number of words not divided into a proper number of paragraphs. It's a failure to communicate in a concise and clear way. Automatically treating all long posts as "walls of text" is disrespectful. Especially if you don't read them and then feel compelled to react to them as if your failure or lack of desire, is the authors fault.

In my specific case it is, I think, such labeling is inappropriate since they can find little actual fault with the writing itself. It falls under the idea that we can know what is what simply by paying attention to how we feel. But feelings are just one way to know the value of something. And they are a pretty unsteady foundation for criticism. That's why I chide people who criticize my writing for not giving examples of where and how it falls short and/or suggestions on how to improve it. If they did either of these things I'd know they actually did a careful reading of what I wrote and were actually concerned with my growth as a human being. In other words, that they cared.

I have to be honest, it never occurred to me you wanted examples or useful advice on how to change it. I assumed it was a deliberate choice.

Take look at what I have written. Scattered throughout you will find two things: corrections given by people of my words and actions; and my acknowledgment of those corrections. I may disagree with a correction suggested, but I have also received and accepted corrections. What, therefore, makes you think I don't want such corrections? Disagreeing with somebody's take on something may be a prideful resistance, or it may be you actually disagree. On the other hand, it may be you hear my resistance to some suggestions more because when I agree that usually ends the conversation, while when I disagree the conversation continues. The amount of posts in which I defend a position I've taken is naturally, therefore, going to be a lot more than those in which I acknowledge my mistakes.

And who would ever make a deliberate choice to not be corrected? Children, pershaps, but I'm not a child. Once you are corrected, and accept the correction, you tend to not make that mistake again. Where if you choose to not take the correction you will just have to face it again, and again, and again. What a bother that would be.

AJ

 

[elvenbee]

Well @ajqtrz , here is my critical thinking response... initiated by reading Tehya's comment, because I do agree with it to a certain extent. A factor that I think matters drastically is the topic being read/discussed.

I’ve read several bits on “wall of text”, and I can agree that for the most part it seems to be an emotional response, lacking in punctuation, or lacking in paragraph breaks. So, I do retract my statement that your comments are “walls of text”.

However, one of the definitions I read included, “stressful on the eyes”, and THAT stuck out to me. I DESPISE reading on computers. I work on a computer and actively take breaks because it is hard on my eyes due to bad eyesight. I print out most everything on paper, if it’s an option. I literally print out articles to read, because I don’t want to read them on my phone/iPad/laptop. I tend to make my trips to the forum short, unless I’m looking for information or responding to someone. I tend to skip over lengthy comments that exceed 2-3 paragraphs, or don’t break up their paragraphs. (For context, this and this comment were easy to read for me.) I was trying to learn more about the Cauldron by reading through the Cauldron thread, but I ended up with a headache. I buy alllll my books paperback and haven’t ever read a book on a Kindle/iPad. The only exception is college textbooks I have purchased that were only available digitally and not in a physical format.
*for context, I hate the length of this paragraph, I don’t know where to insert a break though.

So, could it be reading on a computer? Could it be that I’m here to have fun and enjoy this fantasy world, preferring not to get into deep discussions regarding the game because real life is deep enough? [aka an attitude of, I'm here for fun and this isn't the topic to have deep discussions about to me] Or a mixture?

Whatever the reasons are, they are valid. When you start making comments [on a fantasy game forum] on an individual's reading habits, the type of books people they read, and “societies reading standards” you are entering condescending, pretentious territory [imho]. I have read some of your shorter comments, and agreed with some! If you're looking for more interactions like that, [not necessarily me, but people that may have the same/similar opinions], here are my few tips [because it truly seems like you want constructive criticism]:

• I would avoid comments like mentioned above
• Remember that people have bad eyesight, so it could truly be difficult for them to read
• Maybe add formatting, bullets, bold, italics, to make it easier
• Break up paragraphs, so they're shorter

At the end of the day, this is a game and a forum for a game. Let people enjoy their fun.

welll... now I'm starting to enter your realm of length, AJ (;

 

[Katwick]

Two points:

1. " I'm not a programmer, but ...."
   is an automatic skip.
2. With full credit to my wife, Betsy, for the concept --- she was bugging her Mom about the squirrels in the backyard.
   • Why are they brown?
   • Why do they climb upside down?
   • What do they eat?
   • Mom: I'm pretty busy, why don't you ask your Dad about Squirrels?
   • Betsy: I don't want to know
     THAT MUCH
     about Squirrels!

 

[Genefer]

It has been almost 20 years since I graduated, and since then my writing has been exclusively targeted toward a forum audience - in other words very casual. Last year my doctor asked me to write a letter to the medical board on her behalf. According to her lawyer, my letter won the day for her.

When she wrote to thank me for my effort, my letter was in the text box, and I was utterly mortified to see I had actually used contractions. I recommend keeping your writing standards intact to avoid the humiliation.

 

[Iyapo]

I started it as a discussion of concise writing and while I take issue with how people characterize my writing style, I don't mind the criticism as long as it is an actual critique. Not helpful things are those which express an opinion but give no examples or useful advice in how to change it.

I have to be honest, it never occurred to me you wanted examples or useful advice on how to change it. I assumed it was a deliberate choice.

What, therefore, makes you think I don't want such corrections?

if you choose to not take the correction you will just have to face it again, and again, and again. What a bother that would be.

And yet here we are, again.

 

[Smooper]

I have read much of this thread and in my limited time alloted for this game I question my decision. I did read a few good tidbits but generally my attention level (lifelong untreated ADD and now memory loss) does not work well with forum posts which I have to scroll through. Whether you call it a "wall of text" or not, I can't read things that are not concise and to the point. I used to be an avid reader and would read a book every few days. I haven't read one now in 5 or more years. It is a sad point in my life.

 

[mucksterme]

That's why I chide people who criticize my writing for not giving examples of where and how it falls short and/or suggestions on how to improve it.

You use too many consonants. Especially " D ", I hate " D ".
Just my opinion.

It has been almost 20 years since I graduated

pfft kids

 

[Sprite1313]

You use too many consonants. Especially " D ", I hate " D ".
Just my opinion.



pfft kids

I miss the like button on these threads.

 

[Sprite1313]

And yet here we are, again.

Well reasoned, @Iyapo, and so concisely.

 

[Pheryll]

You use too many consonants. Especially " D ", I hate " D ".
Just my opinion.

So you are one of those Control Alt Elete.

 

[ajqtrz]

@elvenbee I agree pretty much with everything and appreciate the measured and thoughtful response.

@lyapo and @Sprite1313 I'm pretty sure I included the idea that sometimes I disagree with the criticism? If so, count the claims that the text I present are 'walls of text" as one of the things with which I disagree. And, like I also said, it's pretty obvious that the "corrections" with which I agree, (and there are quite a few) get dropped because I both do them less or not at all, and/or nobody chooses to argue with me when I agree with them. So "and yet here we are" implies the criticism that my posts are too long is correct, but without giving any reasons for your saying those criticisms are correct. In other words, you aren't criticizing the length of my text but that I don't agree with the statement that my texts are a "wall of text." I would like to hear your actual thoughts on what you think a wall of text is, and how it compares with my definition and which is more accurate. I do believe that's the subject of this thread for the most part, not my unwillingness to just role over because somebody expresses they think I didn't get something right.

@Tehya1 I agree with the first part of your statement: "If your style is pretentious, boring, clunky, etc to someone, then it is a wall of text to that person," but not with the last, which says "and no amount of education makes up for these percieved flaws to someone who just doesn't connect with your writing." I have found, after decades and decades of teaching writing, that students exposed to concise and powerful writing do change their reading (and writing) habits and are better able to appreciated more complex (and long) styles of writing.

@elvenbee Thanks for the critique. I truly appreciate the calm reflection included in it. One thing you mentioned and with which the research agrees: reading on a screen is different than reading physical pages. The reason has to do with the physical location of the words themselves. Screens get more skimming because there is a sense of impermanence. A book or article has more weight because the words are located in three dimensional space. You can go back to this or that because you physically remember it's rough location. "It was at the bottom of the page toward the end of chapter ten" you might think. In other words, psychologically the words on physical pages are more "real" than the ones on the screen and taken with more weight because they impact not only the eyes, but the body as you hold them, turn the page, open the book. Thus, if you really want to know things it's probably best to read them on paper rather than on the screen, though if you really want to learn something the screen will probably do just as well because you really want to learn. If you are just not interested in the subject you'll skim it and move on.

And found the humor at the end of your post very enjoyable. I laughed.

@mucksterme I do, with positivity, wish we had were in possession of a "like" button. I laughed was previously chuckling when before, I read let my eyes move over your comment. And I'll try to write with fewer of those "#$'s" letters in the future.

AJ

 

[Iyapo]

@elvenbee
That was a heroic effort.

 

[Tehya1]

I have found, after decades and decades of teaching writing, that students exposed to concise and powerful writing do change their reading (and writing) habits and are better able to appreciated more complex (and long) styles of writing.

After decades of teaching writing myself, I agree that some students develop into better writers with practice, but not all. Yes, they learn grammar, paragraph organization and development, etc, but many never quite get that "it" factor. That includes graduate students and some of my colleagues with Ph.Ds. When I grade my students' writing, I grade them on the basics, and about 5-10% of their grade is what I call the grey area, the "it" factor. A student with impeccable grammar, organization and general content but no spark can make an A-. A student with some grammar problems, maybe some organization problems that are not bad enough to throw the reader into chaos, etc, can also make an A- if the writing is particularly engaging.

Remember that there is a difference between a writer and a writer wannabe. In my original post in that other thread, I said that a wall of text in a game forum better be engaging or my eyes grey it out. I did not say that a long post is off-putting, but the term "wall of text" on the web is any text that is longer than a few paragraphs without images, graphs, bullets, etc to break it up because of the nature of web reading, especially in a game forum or a web site landing page. I learned this in one of the web design classes that I took. So a wall of text on the internet can rope in an avid reader if there is a good hook, spark, etc, but most people will skip it and find what they are looking for in an easier to absorb format.

 

[mucksterme]

When I grade my students' writing,

I'm not trying a gotcha
Just curious, as a teacher do you think that should "students' writings"?
I'm going back and forth on it

 

[Tehya1]

I'm going back and forth on it

I think it is a back and forth kinda thing. lol "Writing" as a noun is collective. It is the thing we do and the thing that exists after we write. It can be singular or plural. "Writings" is more specific to pieces of writing that already exist in a collection or type of writing, and it is also plural. In the field of education, "students' writing" is a common phrase.

Ain't our language grand? And confusing at times. lol

 

[defiantoneks]

Oddly.. I LOVE finding typos in books like that, it feels like my own secret treasure lol c:

it's even better because someone got paid to find those before the book went to print. they missed it and you did not.

 

[Myne]

HA! @ajqtrz, you got better for a while and now you are back at the finger vomitus. Honestly, my eyes glaze over and my finger, on its own, scrolls down when I see that stuff. i.e. a wall of text.
Maybe if you pretended you were stranded on a desert island and only had one small piece of paper available to write on, you could prioritize your ideas and reduce the wordiness?
It's STILL TL/DR!
keep trying!

 

[Tehya1]

“Brevity is the soul of wit.” -- Shakespeare

“The secret of a good sermon is to have a good beginning and a good ending; and to have the two as close together as possible.”
--George Burns

“If you can say it in a paragraph, don’t write a book.” -- Frank Sonnenberg

“Brevity is the sister of talent.” -- Anton Chekhov

“The greater a speech, the longer it can be. The longer a speech, the greater it ought to be.” -- Mokokoma Mokhonoana

and so on.