Cross Trades are nightmares for people!

[DeletedUser2870]

OK, I have kept my peace on this, but now am weighing in. I place cross tier trades, but I do it at 1:4 on t3:T1 and 1:2 on t2:t1. I only do it in an emergency, and I have TEN fully upgraded t1 factories. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. I do agree that @innogames didn't factor all things in when making the 1:16 ratio on trades, and that should be fixed, but not all cross tier traders are out to manipulate that.

Its not so much a matter of manipulating as simple math on the amount of space needed.
And the ratio you use already disregards the 16-4-1 ration that Inno set as the 'right' one.
@SoggyShorts suggested ratio makes much more sense, though I would be ok with the 9-3-1 as well since that keeps it more regular

 

[Buttrflwr]

Its not so much a matter of manipulating as simple math on the amount of space needed.
And the ratio you use already disregards the 16-4-1 ration that Inno set as the 'right' one.
@SoggyShorts suggested ratio makes much more sense, though I would be ok with the 9-3-1 as well since that keeps it more regular

Yes, I get the space issue, Dhurrin. Which is why I was sure to mention I have TEN fully upgraded T1 factories, which still isn't always enough since I negotiate for pretty much everything and the wholesaler is now USELESS. Sometimes I need T1 non-boosted goods and just don't have the extra boosted to trade for it, or I need more of my boosted and don't have the non-boosted. So I offer up 1:4 for T1:T3or 1:2 for T1:T2. That is my choice, I am doing it as an incentive for someone to PLEASE help me out with T1 goods. Filtering those trades out, or outlawing them all together will seriously hurt many of us. Yes, Inno needs to reconfigure their ratio, and I LOVE @SoggyShorts ratio idea, it would help us all out. The question is, will @innogames listen? Probably not. The wholesaler is pretty much proof of that.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Filtering out doesnt hurt anyone...it's like turning on the filter to see only your FS-trades, or only trades for a specific good.

Apart from that, I totally agree that the new trader has destroyed much more than it has helped

 

[DeletedUser6085]

OK, I have kept my peace on this, but now am weighing in. I place cross tier trades, but I do it at 1:4 on t3:T1 and 1:2 on t2:t1. I only do it in an emergency, and I have TEN fully upgraded t1 factories. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. I do agree that @innogames didn't factor all things in when making the 1:16 ratio on trades, and that should be fixed, but not all cross tier traders are out to manipulate that.

I too sometimes make cross-tier trades, but I always make sure the ratio is cut in 1/2 or better, as you said. I have made tier 3 for tier 2 at a ratio of 1:1. I would from tier 3 to tier 1 if the game would allow it. Usually I will do it just to unload some of the tier 3 goods that I have too high an inventory of.

 

[Buttrflwr]

I too sometimes make cross-tier trades, but I always make sure the ratio is cut in 1/2 or better, as you said. I have made tier 3 for tier 2 at a ratio of 1:1. I would from tier 3 to tier 1 if the game would allow it. Usually I will do it just to unload some of the tier 3 goods that I have too high an inventory of.

Yep, exactly. If I have too much t3, or in dire need of 2 or 1. And I go as low as the game allows when offering t3 goods for t1 goods.

 

[DeletedUser6572]

I'ts that balance word again. I try and only do upgrades or build manufacturers when I start to need a little more of this, or a little more of that. Keeping myself in balance. I don't cross trade.

I'm not against a rare emergency situation. Heck the quests during the events can be crazy. Otherwise though, I'm not a fan of being asked to make up for others that aren't balanced out. The players that just build the T3 buildings for example and trade for the rest kinda irk me. Why should they ask other players to build more T1 buildings to make up for them? It's not fair. I guess it depends on if the players that are offering the cross trades are doing it habitually or not.

The problem is easy to solve though. Typically I just don't pick up the cross trades. That being said, I would agree that being able to filter out the cross trades would be very handy. If someone is in real need due to an issue, they can send a message. That's what FS's are for right?

 

[Buttrflwr]

I'ts that balance word again. I try and only do upgrades or build manufacturers when I start to need a little more of this, or a little more of that. Keeping myself in balance. I don't cross trade.

I'm not against a rare emergency situation. Heck the quests during the events can be crazy. Otherwise though, I'm not a fan of being asked to make up for others that aren't balanced out. The players that just build the T3 buildings for example and trade for the rest kinda irk me. Why should they ask other players to build more T1 buildings to make up for them? It's not fair. I guess it depends on if the players that are offering the cross trades are doing it habitually or not.

The problem is easy to solve though. Typically I just don't pick up the cross trades. That being said, I would agree that being able to filter out the cross trades would be very handy. If someone is in real need due to an issue, they can send a message. That's what FS's are for right?

I have TEN, fully upgraded Marble factories, and THREE fully upgraded elixir factories, with FIVE fully upgraded crystal factories. To say that I am unbalanced would be inaccurate, to say the least. I agree that those that only build t3 are irksome, but many of us that ARE balanced offer cross trades, and not at the crazy trader fees. We do it fairly...actually, it is more fair to the person picking up the trade, than it is to the one offering a 1:4 t3:t1. Just sayin. Have a good day.

 

[DeletedUser6572]

Everyone is free to play how they want to of-course, and whoever is excepting your trades must be happy of-course. But I'm confused. If you are cross trading, then you are by definition out of balance. If you were in balance than you wouldn't be in need for the cross trade in the first place. Is it a FS situation? You know I thought about that after I posted. Some times FS's in general get out of balance because of the goods that can be produced amongst the 25 players. I can sure see if someone has a boosted good that the FS is overly in need of that building more of those by some players and cross trading around might help, but then again that is something that is worked out in that FS. When I go to the trader, I would still love a filter.

Anyway, this is a good example of the game needing more options. There are so many ways to play.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

I have TEN, fully upgraded Marble factories, and THREE fully upgraded elixir factories, with FIVE fully upgraded crystal factories. To say that I am unbalanced would be inaccurate, to say the least. I agree that those that only build t3 are irksome, but many of us that ARE balanced offer cross trades, and not at the crazy trader fees. We do it fairly...actually, it is more fair to the person picking up the trade, than it is to the one offering a 1:4 t3:t1. Just sayin. Have a good day.

Would you please stop feeling personally attacked?
You've stated your number of factories several times and I don't recall anyone calling that unbalanced, so don't claim people did.
I tend to work with the setup that I have as many tier1 factories as tier2 and tier3 combined. So 8-4-4 in one world, 8-5-3 in another and that works fine for me.

Futhermore, you've stated quite clearly several times that you post crosstiertrades at a cheaper rate than the 'fair' rate, so I really don't see why you feel so wound up about the topic.
Most people, myself included, are getting bloody tired of seeing 10-15 pages of crosstier-trades offering the 1-16 rate tier3 for tier1 goods day after day, until the offers expire and they are posted again.
I don't take them, and neither does anyone in my FSs, since they only have to message to get their stuff and get a much more reasonable rate. But they keep coming up over and over and over and pollute the number of trades that are useful.

So I know that I would dearly love to be able to filter out all those crosstier-trades some way.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

I'm not a fan of being asked to make up for others that aren't balanced out.

This. I cannot agree enough. There should be a love button.

 

[Buttrflwr]

Would you please stop feeling personally attacked?
You've stated your number of factories several times and I don't recall anyone calling that unbalanced, so don't claim people did.
I tend to work with the setup that I have as many tier1 factories as tier2 and tier3 combined. So 8-4-4 in one world, 8-5-3 in another and that works fine for me.

Futhermore, you've stated quite clearly several times that you post crosstiertrades at a cheaper rate than the 'fair' rate, so I really don't see why you feel so wound up about the topic.
Most people, myself included, are getting bloody tired of seeing 10-15 pages of crosstier-trades offering the 1-16 rate tier3 for tier1 goods day after day, until the offers expire and they are posted again.
I don't take them, and neither does anyone in my FSs, since they only have to message to get their stuff and get a much more reasonable rate. But they keep coming up over and over and over and pollute the number of trades that are useful.

So I know that I would dearly love to be able to filter out all those crosstier-trades some way.

LOL, I wasn't aware that I felt personally attacked! Thank you so much for pointing that out to me! Have a nice day!

 

[DeletedUser2963]

@Buttrflwr your posts seemed a bit defensive to me as well, lol. Which I thought was odd considering your initial post and your stance on the issue. I guess I was reading to much into them
In game self regulation by players like you actually helps out allot. New players go to the market and see by your posted trades what they should offer, in neighborhoods with players like you the 2 star down trades are far less common. So, my thanks to you and soggy and anyone else who posts worthwhile cross trades.

 

[Mykan]

I'd rather they switch the 2 star ratio to 5:2:1.
Cross tier trades could be a great feature, and I think most players wouldn't mind seeing them if they were actually fair.

I would warn people to be extremely careful to request something like this as we may find the consequences are disastrous if the devs decided to listen. I know for some players balance is a dirty word but the reality is it is needed and the devs have balanced the game in a particular way. There is a relationship between the trade ratio and the cost of production, tampering with one likely requires tampering with the other. Techs, catering, negotiating building costs will all be related to our production ability. Asking for a change in the trade ratio could open a pandoras box of changes and balance issues and not all may be pleasant.

This is not to say you can't use an altered ratio for trading and educate people about it and the concept of fairness based on space rather than the concept of fairness based on cost to produce (fairness based on time is another argument with another ratio). Just be very careful about whether we want such a change actually implemented into the very heart of the game and the consequences of it. Asking for a variety of features like filters that the OP has requested might be a significantly simpler option with far less risk of unfavourable outcomes.

What started out as a way to help people occasionally help people get extra goods to finish a quest or help them with tournaments has morphed into people demanding to be taken care of by others.

I think this speaks to the very heart of the problem and a lack of education about appropriate production strategies. Addressing this problem is very complex as it comes back to human behaviour. The suggestion of filters adds a level of customisation to the trader to suit a variety of different styles and views.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree here @Mykan
The present system is NOT balanced. If it were, there would be no need for so many people focusing only on producing tier3 goods and posting trades where some other sucker needs to work his ass off to fill such an order.

Personally, I think it all comes from the tampering the devs have done with the fighting and the prices of premium expansions.

When its possible to fight more provinces and thus gain more expansions, like it used to be, then space is not so much of a problem.
And when the prices for premium expansions arent ridiculously high but more like they used to be, the same.

With the severe limitations of getting enough space it really is not that strange that people will try to optimise the use of their valuable space. Since the tier3 factories are so unbalancedly more productive than the tier1 factories, PLUS giving a lot more ranking points, the fact that many players switched to cut down on their tier1, or even eliminate it entirely, and instead focus on overproducing tier3 goods was something that could have been foreseen.

When they started the game the ratio may have been acceptable since people could place all the factories they needed with relative ease, so an exchange rate based on gold and supplies made some kind of sense. Though even there I would say its not even close to correct when one takes into consideration that the pop requirement is not nearly close to balanced.
But take away the available space and suddenly that becomes the limiting factor. Just one more example of the devs not thinking things through far enough. And I feel that partly comes from them not playing the 'normal' game but whipped up cities with unlimited possibilities to just place a few buildings, fully maxed out, so have a quick view of how they work, but not taking the real game-situation into consideration...or at least not enough.

 

[SoggyShorts]

This is not to say you can't use an altered ratio for trading and educate people about it and the concept of fairness based on space rather than the concept of fairness based on cost to produce

I think trying to educate players would be a slow, painful, and ultimately hopeless endeavor. Aside from there not being any way to reach players effectively, the response of "But the game says 16:1 is fair" already blocks players from hearing your explanations. Not many players will want a math lesson while playing a fantasy browser game.

fairness based on time is another argument with another ratio)

I think it's the same ratio. Space and time are equal for comparing productions. You can say a building produces 2x as much, or produces in half the time, either way it has double the output.

 

[Mykan]

The present system is NOT balanced. If it were, there would be no need for so many people focusing only on producing tier3 goods and posting trades where some other sucker needs to work his ass off to fill such an order.

The reference to balance was in relation to the ratio and its use in multiple areas. They have not used one ratio for production and another for trading and something different for tech/building costs (educated guess on this one). The fact that there are people only building T3 factories does raise a balance question but it does not necessarily mean it is the ratio that is out of balance, you mentioned you believe it is space, but it could be score, could be supply/demand, could be over extending, could trade ratios or it could be a combination of many things.

Personally, I think it all comes from the tampering the devs have done with the fighting and the prices of premium expansions.

But take away the available space and suddenly that becomes the limiting factor. Just one more example of the devs not thinking things through far

I disagree as space is much less of an issue in the expected zone than some believe. The needs of a city beyond that zone are different to one in that zone, both can achieve very similar things. More space comes at a cost and to fund that cost requires more factories/workshops and support etc. The issue is more around how people are using that space and managing their resources. If I can only produce 1,000 T1 and T2 goods a day but need 3,000 per day to do the things I am trying to achieve yet I make a surplus of 1,000 T3 goods per day it is irrelevant what my city size is (those numbers just get bigger) I am always going to be short and look for a way to balance it out. Because cross tier trading is an option people do that rather than address their production and spending. Compare this to supplies, if I am overreaching by 2,000 supplies per day I either correct that or my city comes to a grinding halt as I run out of supplies and have no other option to obtain them.

I think trying to educate players would be a slow, painful, and ultimately hopeless endeavor. Aside from there not being any way to reach players effectively, the response of "But the game says 16:1 is fair" already blocks players from hearing your explanations. Not many players will want a math lesson while playing a fantasy browser game.

No its not an easy task but is changing a mechanic that reaches through several systems of the game any easier? There are different ways to compare the goods ratios (I am not advocating one over the other):

• Based on any ratio is fine if buyer and seller agree
• Based on cost of supplies/coins
• Based on space required (2 different ratios as mentioned by Soggyshorts and Crazywizard)
• Based on time - Why should I give up something that took me 12 hours to make for something someone made in 3 hours. Pick a ratio but a person could argue 1:1 if they really wanted.

The game uses one ratio and many players use another, and a smaller few use another (I know some forum users advocate anything goes). All I am saying is I believe that if the trade ratio is changed it could have dramatic effects on other areas of the game. People where upset with the recent change to the wholesaler could you imagine the outcry if multiple mechanics in the game change to adjust the ratio as it currently stands and do you think people won't still cry it is unfair?

 

[DeletedUser5100]

could you imagine the outcry if multiple mechanics in the game change to adjust the ratio as it currently stands and do you think people won't still cry it is unfair?

players are always crying unfair daily in the forum about something ... prohibit cross tier trades I say!

 

[DeletedUser3122]

Here's a concept. Cut down on tier 1 goods if they aren't "worth it" to higher ranked players, but don't eliminate them by placing the burden on other players who have them, just so you can outrank other players.

Personally, my FS does not permit cross-tier trades unless by mutual agreement. I help new players with 4:1 ratios but not ongoing.

 

[DeletedUser6890]

So here's a fun one to comment on. Let it be said, I'm a new player. I've been playing elvenar religiously for about a month. I've gotten my city into about the rank 7,000 zone. But until I started really cruising the forums, and until I really started producing gems recently (for about a week now), I didn't realize how unfair the trade mechanic was. I'm giving this information as a sort of "explanation" of the viewpoint in place here.

Banning cross tier trades entirely is a terrible idea. That shouldn't even be on the table. The game is restrictive enough as it is, chokes off progression rates even to adamant players; the last thing we need is a "NO. NO CROSS TIERS FOR YOU."

What I CAN say is that the rates DO need to change, and the rating system as a result. 9:3:1 is at least a better perspective, 5:3:1 makes needlessly complex math. 4:2:1 slightly devalues the last slot but would stand to discourage rather than stop T3<->1 trading. Because as it is, people can drop 110 gems for 1600 planks and still get called a "3 star trade". 4:2:1 would make it less appealing to try to swing across the board.

But when I first looked at the rating system, the calculations... early on? Early on it seems fair, and when it's the status quo all around, people generally don't question it. FSes don't comment on the trade ratio. So until the trade ratio is itself adapted, this is going to be an issue. But it's such an easy fix right now that I don't understand why this is a thing they haven't patched. If they can completely revamp the wholesaler, there's literally no reason they can't scale in the numbers as an overnight patch. 4:2:1 seems right up the alley needed without completely choking off any ability to make personal decisions in the game.

 

[Ashrem]

Part of me thinks that "fair trading" is (from Inno's point of view) not so much a player feature, as a way to capture "pushing" (using a city to provide goods for another city in order to get an advantage)

While fair trading is an important consideration for players, if the devs adjust the math so that you can press large amounts of high end goods toward a smaller city, it might open the game up to people who "farm" for themselves, by using a small city to produce nothing but T1 Goods in exchange for the higher matts they require.

I haven't spent a bunch of time on the repercussions, but I don't think any actual adjustment to the game math is as easy as anyone thinks. I do think that the ability to filter out cross-tier trades (as well as all 0 and 1 star trades) is useful, valuable, and not something that can be manipulated to give an advantage.