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    Your Elvenar Team

Cross trading

Myne

Well-Known Member
I need population for T1s, T2s and T3s. The ratio of 1:1.5:2.25 is established by how much space it takes to produce the good.
The effect of the GA is global so it has an identical impact on all my manufactories equally. The ratio does not change.


Me too, because of the ease of rearranging I would rather arrange 10 t3s and work roads around them than arrange t3s, t2s and t1s. ...lol maybe in my Harander scroll boosted city I should just delete all my t1s and t3s and just make scrolls. There is no point in even pretending balance...that city already has 10 scroll manufactories.

I have 10 scroll boosted players in my fellowship...and still have trouble keeping up with need. There is shortly to be a pow wow regarding this.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
What about the factories? They need space and they are more or less all the same size and the ratio isn't 1:1.5:2.25
Manufactories are not more or less the same size. When calculating a manufactory's footprint you have to include the population needed and culture needed to place the building. T3s require more room than t2s and t2s require more room than t1s. Thus the ratio.

@BrinDarby The forum already had a conversation about the definition of the word arbitrary. Just because you dont like the values used to calculate the ratio does not make the ratio itself arbitrary. There are hundreds of post here and on beta debating the criteria and mathing incessantly over the current ratio. It is based on the amount of space it takes for a base player to produce each good in their city.
 
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DeletedUser30612

Guest
I have 10 scroll boosted players in my fellowship...and still have trouble keeping up with need. There is shortly to be a pow wow regarding this.
Your making me feel guilty for using the word same at the beginning of the winter festival
 

Lady Dastardly

Well-Known Member
My FS's are currently discussing this issue as well, since the T3 trading imbalance has become much more noticable.
There is also the perception of balance. My city is balanced. If I take T3:T2 trades i will have too many T3s(mine and yours) and not enough T2s because I gave my T2s to you for T3s which I dont need because my city is balanced. I need T2s. I can then trade the T3s I got from you for the T2s I need, or I can redesign my city so you dont have to redesign yours, or I can just not take cross trades.
This is the boat I find myself in. It's easy to ignore the T3 downward trades from my neighbors, I just don't take them. It gets tricky when it comes to FS trades, particularly in high achieving FS's. If I am capable of taking their trades without hindering my own progress, I feel like I should, both to help them out and because it could benefit the FS's spire/tourney performance. The problem for me is that while they are getting what they want, I am getting what I do not need. Balancing production is hard enough work: figuring out your base productions, chapter/upgrade requirements and spire/tourney needs . If I have to factor in taking cross-tier trades on a regular basis because I want to help my FS, then it really is coming down to, "I can redesign my city so you dont have to redesign yours."

The other issue is that a lot of T3 is from "free" productions via set/evolving/event bldgs. One of my cities has a Gingerbread Mansion (got lucky in the spire and won all the artifacts), and both have a single Moonstone Library, but nothing else produces T2 for "free" for me, so I have paid; in space, population, culture, coins and supplies, to make the T2 I am trading away.
 

Myne

Well-Known Member
My FS's are currently discussing this issue as well, since the T3 trading imbalance has become much more noticable.

This is the boat I find myself in. It's easy to ignore the T3 downward trades from my neighbors, I just don't take them. It gets tricky when it comes to FS trades, particularly in high achieving FS's. If I am capable of taking their trades without hindering my own progress, I feel like I should, both to help them out and because it could benefit the FS's spire/tourney performance. The problem for me is that while they are getting what they want, I am getting what I do not need. Balancing production is hard enough work: figuring out your base productions, chapter/upgrade requirements and spire/tourney needs . If I have to factor in taking cross-tier trades on a regular basis because I want to help my FS, then it really is coming down to, "I can redesign my city so you dont have to redesign yours."

The other issue is that a lot of T3 is from "free" productions via set/evolving/event bldgs. One of my cities has a Gingerbread Mansion (got lucky in the spire and won all the artifacts), and both have a single Moonstone Library, but nothing else produces T2 for "free" for me, so I have paid; in space, population, culture, coins and supplies, to make the T2 I am trading away.

Are you the AM? If so, talk to your fellowship. I just had my pow wow and it went really well. You will need to look over every city to see where they have gone awry with production if they are not offering things you need. Also check elvenstats, it will allow you to see how balanced your fellowship is with regards to boosted goods.
If you are not the AM, talk to your AM and work with them on a pow wow
 

Lady Dastardly

Well-Known Member
I am not the AM, but as I said, we are already discussing it as a FS and fellows are already rebalancing. I should be clear, my issue isn't not getting my needs met. My city is balanced, and I post same tier trades that get picked up quickly. I'm not waiting for others to post the things I need. In fact, I suspect we don't even have much of a shortage of goods, it's more that folks are ending up with a lot more T3 than their other tiers, and so they think, "hey, I'll just trade my extra T3 for the stuff I have less of," not considering the impact that has on their fellows who are taking their trades. It's a case of trading because you have it, as opposed to trading because you need it, if that makes sense.

I love elvenstats for a lot of things, but it isn't really very helpful in this particular case, since so much goods production comes from special bldgs, and not factories, at this point.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
The forum already had a conversation about the definition of the word arbitrary. Just because you dont like the values used to calculate the ratio does not make the ratio itself arbitrary.
No exactly that... arbitrary , and SoggyShorts was very firm......
it used to be 1:4:16 , and was changed to 1:1.5:2.25

marble & planks are 1x2 or 2x1 , steel is 2x2
crystal and scrolls are 2x3 or 3x2 , silk is 3x3
elixer is 3x3 , dust is 3x2 , and gems is 3x4 .....

nowhere in that mess is a distictive, firm , progression ( 3 sets )
increasing 50% each time ......
 

Myne

Well-Known Member
I am not the AM, but as I said, we are already discussing it as a FS and fellows are already rebalancing. I should be clear, my issue isn't not getting my needs met. My city is balanced, and I post same tier trades that get picked up quickly. I'm not waiting for others to post the things I need. In fact, I suspect we don't even have much of a shortage of goods, it's more that folks are ending up with a lot more T3 than their other tiers, and so they think, "hey, I'll just trade my extra T3 for the stuff I have less of," not considering the impact that has on their fellows who are taking their trades. It's a case of trading because you have it, as opposed to trading because you need it, if that makes sense.

I love elvenstats for a lot of things, but it isn't really very helpful in this particular case, since so much goods production comes from special bldgs, and not factories, at this point.

Understood. I started with 3 gems factories. I am down to one and have way more than enough. Good luck!
 

Killy-

Active Member
Manufactories are not more or less the same size. When calculating a manufactory's footprint you have to include the population needed and culture needed to place the building. T3s require more room than t2s and t2s require more room than t1s. Thus the ratio.

When I am desperate I often try magic - so let's try magic. Wait magic? I mean math of course. :) For the total footprint we have the size of the manufactory, let's call those t2 and t3. Then both need population and culture, let's call them b2 and b3 (I hope b is the right letter in english^^). How much tiles needed for pop and culture depends on which buildings you are using and which wonders you have placed - let's put this down as the factor x (like you said, it is the same factor for both). Footprint of the t3 manufactory: (b3*x + t3) and the same for the other manufactory (b2*x + t2) with x our only variable.

Now we have the claimed ratio 1:1.5 what gives us the equation: (b3*x + t3) = 1.5*(b2*x + t2). In all cases with t3 is unequal to 1.5*t2 (and like I said, the manufactories have all more or less the same size in later chapters) there is only one solution for x and therefore no fixed ratio exist - qed.
 
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Myne

Well-Known Member
When I am desperate I often try magic - so let's try magic. Wait magic? I mean math of course. :) For the total footprint we have the size of the manufactory, let's call those t2 and t3. Then both need population and culture, let's call them b2 and b3 (I hope b is the right letter in english^^). How much tiles needed for pop and culture depends on which buildings you are using and which wonders you have placed - let's put this down as the factor x (like you said, it is the same factor for both). Footprint of the t3 manufactory: (b3*x + t3) and the same for the other manufactory (b2*x + t2) with x our only variable.

Now we have the claimed ratio 1:1.5 what gives us the equation: (b3*x + t3) = 1.5*(b2*x + t2). In all cases with t3 is unequal to 1.5*t2 (and like I said, the manufactories have all more or less the same size in later chapters) there is only one solution for x and therefore no fixed ratio exist - qed.

You just gave me a headache...but carry on for everyone else. lol
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
For the total footprint we have the size of the manufactory, let's call those t2 and t3. Then both need population and culture,
You are completely ignoring the production output and the coin and supply cost for manufacturing each good. Literally there are hundreds of posts where this was mathed to the heavens over the course of several years. 1:1.5 was as close to even as it can be.

"Proposed changes
In an attempt to make the system more fair, by more closely reflecting the actual value of traded Goods in the star rating, we would like to adjust the ratio required for a 2-star ("fair") trade. Instead of the current 4:1 ratio, we would like to lower this to a ratio of 2:1 or even 1.5:1. This would still not reflect the exact value of the Goods 100% accurately, but it would be a lot closer than the current 4:1 ratio. Reaching 100% accuracy unfortunately will not be achieved for two reasons:
  1. the ratio differs slightly between tiers, causing different numbers between tiers 1 and 2, and tiers 2 and 3; and
  2. we want to offer a "round" number, to allow for an easier calculation on how to score a certain trade.
The real numbers we calculated are close to 1.5:1 for both trades between tiers 1 and 2, and tiers 2 and 3,"
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
No exactly that... arbitrary , and SoggyShorts was very firm......
it used to be 1:4:16 , and was changed to 1:1.5:2.25

marble & planks are 1x2 or 2x1 , steel is 2x2
crystal and scrolls are 2x3 or 3x2 , silk is 3x3
elixer is 3x3 , dust is 3x2 , and gems is 3x4 .....

nowhere in that mess is a distictive, firm , progression ( 3 sets )
increasing 50% each time ......
You're just using size, not true size which includes pop, culture, roads and supplies (plus workshops pop culture roads)
We didn't pull the 1:1.5:2.25 out of thin air (arbitrary)
We looked at the production levels of each chapter on a "how many squares to produce 100 of each goods" basis using max level available buildings for that chapter. Using that data we came to a ratio that was close to the current one and rounded it for practicality.
Edit: @Iyapo1 found it.

That said, I've recently done new calculations that change everything(see next post).
 

muffy.

Chef
People really overthink this process.....
if you need something put it out there....if you want something pick it up.....if you don't like what you see don't look at it...eventually it will go away.
It doesn't hurt to send a newbie a message explaining how the trader works if they are putting out zero star trades.....obviously it hasn't been explained or they have gotten away with it and they will do what they want....or maybe they are helping someone they know
It has nothing to do with space or factory's or anything else.......it's a trade period.
It's your choice
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Originally the developers used only the cost of supplies to produce and arrived at 16:4:1
We then used space/time costs to produce and arrived at 2.25:1.5:1
This was a massive improvement but is still very flawed.

What we failed to capture was 2 major issues:
1. Event buildings production by chapter.
2. Demands.

The first one is hard to get clear numbers on, but the issue is easily explained: A low-level Evolution or set building will produce say 200 planks then a mid-level will make 500 silk, and a high level will make 20,000 gems. In essence, the biggest producers in the game (big/advanced) players ALL make T3, and loads of it. This makes T3 less valuable. This is also why (aside from a CC) the pilgrims set was so desirable: it broke the trend for a minute.

The second issue is one that surprised me as a former 100% fighter:
The demand for T1 from the game is MUCH higher than the other tiers.
I had simply assumed that catering the tournament (the biggest goods sink in the game) cost 1:1:1 of the tiers, or close to it.

When completing 20 provinces the costs were 44% T1, 31% T2, and only 25% T3
This would suggest a cross-tier ratio close to 1:1.5:2! Almost a complete reversal of the current ratio, and that doesn't even factor in the first issue above!

To be clear, the ratio suggested by the tournament costs is that you should pay TWO gems for ONE plank!

costs.png
 
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@SoggyShorts, thank you, thank you for doing this math!! I had been starting to suspect something similar, but haven't had the mental bandwidth to actually do all the calculations to prove it. That's really interesting.

I had noticed since getting to chapter 6 or thereabouts that event buildings were all starting to give me T3, but in way huger numbers than they had been giving of T2. I also noticed that whenever my catering costs increase in Spire or Tournament, the T1 increases more (T1 might go from 1100 to 1200, while T3 goes from 560 to 600 at the same time). That means my T3 amounts are growing exponentially, while my T1 goods have fewer channels for gaining them and higher demand at the same time. I thought maybe the Forbidden Ruins was just throwing off the amount of T3 in the economy, but it definitely seems to go beyond that.

I'm in chapter 8, a caterer (with the exception of the first 5 tents in tourney, which I fight just because I have some passive troop producing buildings and I figure, why waste those by letting them languish unused if they can save me a few goods?), and these are my numbers right now: I have 12 marble manufactories, 4 silk manufactories (plus a few silk producing event buildings), and no gem manufactories because I just teleported the last one. I cater the entire Spire almost every week (the other weeks I still go through the second floor), and my tournament average is 3780. With all that, my T1 is balancing at 85-90,000 each week, with dips down into the 30,000s and highs to the 120,000s when I'm spiring. My T2 is balancing around 90-100,000 each. My T3, with no manufactories, is around 260,000 each and climbs every week. :oops:
 

Lemon Wren

Active Member
I just take what I need and leave what I don't unless it's something an even smaller city needs and then I take what I can and recycle it through my FS or neighborhood.

If people are taking trades that make their city imbalanced, then that's on them. If no one takes a trade that benefits no one then it'll eventually disappear.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
@MaidenFair don't worry. Once you get a few more chapters along and you need to replace all those old tier 3-producing buildings with much more needed mana or divine seed-producing buildings, and you start to need tons of tier 3 for research and upgrading, all that balance will shift. In my chapter 19 city, tier 3 goods have been my lowest of the nine goods for several chapters now.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
As for the actual numbers, there are probably dozens of formulas someone could come up with, depending on what exactly someone is doing with their city. But the game still needs a base-line trade ratio that applies to the players with zero event buildings or the ones not in fellowships, who thus do not do any tournaments, etc. Someone with only event buildings giving pop and supplies and goods and someone with only normal residences and workshops and factories will have massively different real costs for goods production. But the average players should not be punished with having to use a trade ratio set up to cater to the Eventlords, who could do 1:1 cross-tier trades without batting an eye, especially when this includes an assumption of having a bunch of event buildings that anyone who only started playing in the past three years will never have.
 
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