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    Your Elvenar Team

Cross trading

Killy-

Active Member
But that's not mistaken. If your steel trades sit untaken that is in fact the fault of your FS. You either need more active or bigger FS members who can handle your trades.

Sure, but it isn't a general problem of same-tier trades.

As we've shown in this and dozens of other threads ross-tier trades are extremely hard to make "fair", so there is often a feeling of resentment on one end of the trade. By simply enforcing a FS rule that each player must balance their own city among tiers you prevent any player from unbalancing another.

I don't get what part is hard to make it fair. Either the trade gets taken and both sides are happy with it or nobody takes the trade and needs adjustment. Maybe other player have other experiences, but I never had problems with cross-tier trades I wanted to make (or taking some, I simply take the ones I like and leave the rest alone). It is just an additional option and can do some balancing.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I don't get what part is hard to make it fair. Either the trade gets taken and both sides are happy with it or nobody takes the trade and needs adjustment.
You're missing the 3rd possibility which I've already presented:
Players in a FS are a team.
Players want to help their teammates
Players take trades that their teammates need, even if they aren't beneficial to the taker.

Maybe you never take trades just to help out the requester, but many of us do. Again, the issue is the landmines. As I've pointed out several times, having to pick and choose which trades to take and which to avoid is time-consuming and annoying which leads to players simply not bothering to open the trader unless they need something (as opposed to opening it to fill requests)

We've experimented with this for years, and in my FS that has no rules trades of all kinds sit for long periods of time, but in my FS that has a no-cross-tier policy, all trades are snatched up within minutes or a couple of hours at most. This is despite a significant overlap of the exact same players in both FS.
The reason is that the FS that allows undesirable cross trades is a pain in the ass to sift through and take trades 1,4,5,8,13,17 etc

Players with a big stash know with absolute certainty that they can take a same-tier trade and reverse it later because moving goods at 1:1 same tier is super easy. So they log in and power click the trader until it is empty, with full confidence that if they end up with way too much [steel] and too few [planks] they can reverse it later through a bigger player.

If, however, they take a cross trade (which means taking a high tier for a lower one 99% of the time) they need to find another sucker to take it later in order to balance out again, and there is no guarantee that they will ever find one.

It's a game of hot potatoe that no one wants.
 
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BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
If player A never needs/uses Good X , and player B likes to sell Good X,
( for everything else ) ... I don't care what the ratio is, player A is not going
to be taking player B's trades.

Because Elvenar does NOT use one tier to make a higher tier, there never will
be a constant upstream of resources globally.... as players no longer need goods
then trade will dry up from the top down....

I'm certainly not into sentient/ascended goods, but I'm guessing once a player is....
they more focus on those rather than Standard goods. Yes sets like AT, Manor, or Ruins
give static goods forever, and I'm guessing higher CH players can live just off what
they get from those sets in Std. goods T1/T2/T3, and no longer needs to trade for them.

This thread ( OP ) talked about Std. goods, .... players such as @SoggyShorts , many times
have explained.... Ascended is game capp'd @ 1:1 , sentient ( decaying stuff ) on a few
worlds are held hostile to preditory trading, and really do need to be traded 1:1.......

So ( for the most part ) Standard goods, are most used by players CH7 and below.
The longer it takes on average players to get thru Chapters where all new event bldgs
are giving T3 and/or Mana .... the more that segment of the playerbase will be basically
adding to the glut of T3..... ( gems are the new scrolls in my worlds )

You have to go back to what @SoggyShorts and other players do, encourage newer
players to learn City Balance..... if ur adding say a troop bldg like D.riders, but it also
gives you T1, then you need to scale back your reg T1 so that doesn't cause an
imbalance.... AMs need to recruit a balance of boosted players too.... And if ur FS
is short in T1, then all players should make a little xtra..... (teamwork)

Unlike Soggy, I do see benefit for cross-trading, but @crackie (&AJ) and others are right.....
if a player adjusts to the market correctly, their goods will Always be in demand....
thus thier trades will be taken far quicker/easier......

I do not condone FSs having blanket rules on each type... Std/Sentient/Ascended.
I'm alot closer to Soggy's view than I used to be, but give me a break..... CH 15+
players telling CH 1-6 players how to trade Std. goods, is kinda dumb....

They're the players primarially using them, let them set the rules.... lol
 

Killy-

Active Member
@SoggyShorts Hm, it is not relatable to me I guess. In my experience after the first chapters most players have some reserves and don't care about when their trades are taken (I myself for example only offer trades every other week to balance my goods). I don't see the need to click through the whole trader. In the rare event someone does need the goods right away, he/she is asking for help and the job is done with a few clicks and no worries about the "landmindes".
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
Impossible.
Either your trader was empty which meant everyone had what they needed(healthy), or you posted trades that no one took in which case the trader was not empty.
So, my statement stands: An empty trader is a healthy trader.

If my trader goes empty for a few days I would consider that either my location is poor, or my fellowship is dead or dying. Yes, large players sometimes don't post very many trades. But no trades? AND, thus, it is possible that an empty trader is not always a sign of health. Of course, it could be that I'm getting to the trader and my fs is so fast at taking trades I often arrive to an empty trader....or I empty it myself. In those cases, you are right that an empty trader would be a sign of health. But, obviously, there are at least two scenario's where and empty trader is a sign of either an unhealthy fs or and unhealthy environment, or both.

As we've shown in this and dozens of other threads [c]ross-tier trades are extremely hard to make "fair", so there is often a feeling of resentment on one end of the trade. By simply enforcing a FS rule that each player must balance their own city among tiers you prevent any player from unbalancing another.

But that's not mistaken. If your steel trades sit untaken that is in fact the fault of your FS. You either need more active or bigger FS members who can handle your trades. The entire boost system in this game is designed for players to make 1 of 3 goods and swap for the other two. If you FS fails to do so then it needs addressing.
Emphasis added.

Again, "fair?" I thought we recognized a long time ago that "fair" is subjective and thus, if you take the trade, cross-tier, zero star, 1 star, 2 star or even 3 star, you are taking it because it's either "more than fair" to you (but also fair to the seller from his/her perspective) , or at least "fair" since you often get benefits beyond the goods received. It's interesting to note that the discussion has shifted from "fair" to more "balanced cities." I agree that a balanced city is probably good for players to have, but then again, it's a matter of choice, isn't it? I've not heard of a rule in any fs that says, "you must balance your city." If I did I'd just shrug and let the fs make their own rules. At least "have a balanced city" sounds more rational than, "trade only what we declare to be fair." On the other hand, "have a balanced city" may mean the player misses opportunities to profit from over producing what is in short supply, so the rule is also a bit restrictive.

In the end cross-tier trading is extremely "fair" if you just let the ones making the trade determine for themselves if it's fair. The peanut gallery really should remain silent on the matter.

You're missing the 3rd possibility which I've already presented:
Players in a FS are a team.
Players want to help their teammates
Players take trades that their teammates need, even if they aren't beneficial to the taker.

Maybe you never take trades just to help out the requester, but many of us do. Again, the issue is the landmines. As I've pointed out several times, having to pick and choose which trades to take and which to avoid is time-consuming and annoying which leads to players simply not bothering to open the trader unless they need something (as opposed to opening it to fill requests)

We've experimented with this for years, and in my FS that has no rules trades of all kinds sit for long periods of time, but in my FS that has a no-cross-tier policy, all trades are snatched up within minutes or a couple of hours at most. This is despite a significant overlap of the exact same players in both FS.
The reason is that the FS that allows undesirable cross trades is a pain in the ass to sift through and take trades 1,4,5,8,13,17 etc

If, however, they take a cross trade (which means taking a high tier for a lower one 99% of the time) they need to find another sucker to take it later in order to balance out again, and there is no guarantee that they will ever find one.

It's a game of hot potatoe that no one wants.

My fs is an Open Trades fellowship. We have no rules about trades. I only see trades in my fs about once a day, because all the other times the trader is empty. It's empty because somebody has already taken the trades. Our trades, too, get taken ASAP in most instances. That's healthy, and that's with no rules. Open trading works for us and we allow all kinds of open trades. You may be right that in your fs, with rules, trades are taken up within minutes, but it's probably not the rules, but the people who take the trades. And just as you have an active and helpful fs with rules, I have the same without the rules. The only difference is that my players have a wider range of trades they can make and thus, more options.

So those who take cross tier trades from higher to lower are "suckers?" In debate it's called "poisoning the well." Your use of "sucker" to reinforce the case you are trying to make, by "poisoning" the testimony of those who take cross tier trades. In other words, the question at hand is not if I'm a sucker or not, but if cross-tier trades, especially from higher to lower, are good for the game. You "poison the well" when you undermine the testimony of those who take cross tier trades by name calling. The fact that they take cross-tier trades of the type you don't like, is testimony that they believe it okay to do so. Calling them names is not good form in a discussion of this type.

And, yes, to insure the trade is beneficial to the taker, the taker does, in some instances, need to look at the player. I, personally, take such trades from smaller players -- which means I have to look them up. That is part of the cost. If you don't like paying the cost of that type of trades, then don't take that type of trades. It's not worth it to you. On the other hand, if you do take those types of trades, the cost of the lookup is part of the value of the trade and you, apparently, think it's worth the cost. You have apparently decided it was worth the time to do so. The thing is, the cost of a trade is more than the cost of the goods requested, and the benefit of the trade is often also more than the benefit of the goods received. And you know this as you sometimes give up some goods to help other players exactly because helping other players is beneficial to you and the game, a sentiment with which I concur.

In summary, the only trade that would appear as not beneficial to the taker is the one taken by accident. But that too, is something you can fix by slowing down. Of course "slowing down" is also a cost, isn't it? So if rapid trading is more beneficial to you than the occassional accidental acceptance, then you will do the rapid trading. If, on the other hand, you feel the accidental acceptances are not worth the speed gained, you will slow down. In the end, as I've stated many times before, every other type trade is taken by choice and, included in that choice is his/her attitude about all sorts of things, including his/her need at the moment, the size of the other player, the need to support smaller players, the decision to slow down or not, and so on and so on. To sit back and judge this or that trade as not beneficial to the taker is to say you have considered "benefit" by the goods numbers alone, and even that in any market is far, far more difficult to discern.

AJ
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
TI; DR (to insulting; didnt read)

The peanut gallery really should remain silent on the matter.
Really?
It's interesting to note that the discussion has shifted from "fair" to more "balanced cities." I
This happened because most people do not want to read yet another lecture from you, where you try to convince us that everyone can decide for themselves what is fair. All while ignoring the fact that everyone can decide for themselves what is fair.

We are players. We trade. We are allowed to be subjective. And we are allowed to talk about our subjective opinions.
 
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Darielle

Well-Known Member
I still don't see, how that would be the fault of cross-tier? Otherwise if I am in a fellowship with way too many steel players and nobody takes my steel trades, I might mistankenly think it is the fault of my fs, when my same tier trades won't be taken.

It actually is the fault of the fs ... or rather, that you have picked the wrong fellowship. Yes, you may like the people, but if they have a glut of what you have and none of what you need, then it definitely is not the right fellowship for you. Believe me, you'll like people everywhere you go. Elvenar has some great people in every fellowship.
 

Nerwa

Active Member
I've never understood the deep passion people have about determining fairness* & maintaining equilibrium in the trader. The built-in trader fees are ridiculously skewed - probably the least fair & most unbalanced out of the whole thing. But most of us figure out how to make it work (by dumping extra coins & supplies into it), and we roll with it until we get the Blooming Trade Guild leveled up.

So why don't people think that adapting to changes in the traders is just part of the game? It's not like we're going to run out of goods of any type, long-term. *Anybody* can make *anything* in whatever quantities they want - given enough time. Anybody can replace poorly spent goods. There is no way anyone can truly monopolize something that *everyone* can make.

Obviously, trading makes building up stock go more quickly. Some types of trades suit some playing styles better than others. But - like most things in this game - there's no method that's going to work for everybody, or even a significant percentage. And - also like most things in this games - things change.

The cheese moves, little mousies.


*"It's not FAIR!" "You say that so often; I wonder what your basis for comparison is."
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
You keep saying "gems are the new scrolls". My same tier 2 star gem trades always get picked up.
I see almost none....... None of T3:T3 trades, its all T3 for everything else,
AND 75% of them all are offering Gems.......

Just look @ the 1st xtra F.Ruins piece... Dragon tamer, it gives gems
and always will, thats just 1 example.... too many ppl that can't use Gems
seem to be collecting it, or trying to trade it for everything else....
 

Alram

Well-Known Member
@BrinDarby
I think only 5% of players,(Silver League), got an extra Magic Dragon Tamer. That seems to be a little different than every player ch3+ having an unlimited number of scroll producing buildings...forever.
 

Yavimaya

Active Member
I only post same tier trades in the trader except on very rare occasions when actually needed. Those also get picked up within the same day just not in 5 minutes. I think they take them for me bc I usually don't do that. I think some people are just posting those mixed tier trades for fun (not all, just some). I pick up mixed tier trades if I see they are a lower level player to help them. If I take any other mixed tier trades they are 3 star ones and the rare occasion I need to post those kinds I make them 3 star ones as well. I do see way way way more mixed tier trades and tons of them more than anything else. I just don't take what I don't need or am unable to afford to take. I do see the problem everyone else is seeing though.
 

Yavimaya

Active Member
hello fellow gamers. I have long wanted to put this out but I know a lot of people will get crazed about it but I am going to do it anyway because I see it as a huge pitfall. While everyone thinks its easier to cross trade and sees it as an equal trade I don't know if people realize that they are loosing goods when you accept Tier 3 goods for T1 and T2. It takes more goods especially for T1 goods to equal T3 so its really not an equal trade. To me it should be the other way around. People should be trading T1 goods to get T2 or T3 goods if they want to cross trade. The other pitfall I am seeing with this method of attaining goods is especially for T2 people are not producing enough of that Tier. Thats all I see is mostly T3 goods given for T2 goods. This may not be so but its how it looks to a person trying to trade. so now I know this is not going to be a popular view but I am putting it out anyway hoping that it may click with some people. happy gaming to all either way :)
I agree with you and see where you are coming from. (Coming from a player only in Woodelves right now and coming up on only 1 year of experience)
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
TI; DR (to insulting; didnt read)


Really?

This happened because most people do not want to read yet another lecture from you, where you try to convince us that everyone can decide for themselves what is fair. All while ignoring the fact that everyone can decide for themselves what is fair.

We are players. We trade. We are allowed to be subjective. And we are allowed to talk about our subjective opinions.

Of course you have subjective opinions, we all do. On the other hand, expressing your subjective opinions influences others, and sometimes not to their benefit. And that's a shame, in my opinion. It's a shame because your subjective reasons for your own trades should not be the rule for everyone. But that's what all the declarations of "unfair" are about. It's a group of players trying to enforce a standard they agreed upon a long, long time ago. A standard that was, in my opinion, flawed from the beginning.

So what's the right course to influence others? The right course is probably an honest discussion of the subject being considered -- which we've been at for at least a couple years -- to answer the question: "are all trades only fair when they are 2 stars?" In my opinion, I think we've seen the player base sort of vote on that as they offer a lot more cross tier, 0, 1 and 3 star trades now than years ago. When I started people were admonished to make only 2 star trades unless they were very small. Now it's pretty much open trades and it seems to be working. started. In other words, they are putting up trades they want to put up for whatever reason.

@JerseyMeeko76 When you say, "they are loosing goods when you accept Tier 3 goods for T1 and T2. It takes more goods especially for T1 goods to equal T3" you are right. But that's only if you consider the actual "goods count." If you wanted a perfect "goods count" trade though, you'd have to adjust the 2 star rating to reflect the actual cost of each good compared with the others. It's true that every 2 star cross-tier trade is unbalanced and somebody loses and somebody gains a few goods in the transaction. But the value of the trade is not fully dependent on the cost. In the end, it's really quite hard to consider what the value of any good is compared to the other even if you consider only availability, need, and cost. The star system makes no attempt to do this but bases everything on cost. In addition there are things besides, availability, need and cost, to consider in the value of a trade as well. These, "intangibles" might include: helping your neighbor, wanting to move faster in the game, having an abundance of one good and lacking the other, and so and so on. All of which determine the actual value to the two traders involved at the moment of the trade. And they are the ones to determine if all those things add up to a "fair" trade or not because they alone can determine what the trade gives them overall. If both sides agree and think they are at least breaking even, all things considered, then they make the trade and it's fair enough for them. If nobody takes the trade the poster learns the value of the goods offered at this time, is less than what the market will bear. But in all cases it's the traders themselves who determine if the transaction is fair.

AJ
 
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Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Two star same tier trades get picked up fast. If your trades are not moving it might be your neighborhood, it might be your fellowship or it might be your offer. People who do not like cross tier trades for whatever reason are allowed to talk.

Of course you have subjective opinions, we all do. On the other hand, expressing your subjective opinions influences others, and sometimes not to their benefit. And that's a shame, in my opinion.
Are we back to only you can talk again because only you know best?
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
Two star same tier trades get picked up fast. If your trades are not moving it might be your neighborhood, it might be your fellowship or it might be your offer. People who do not like cross tier trades for whatever reason are allowed to talk.

Are we back to only you can talk again because only you know best?

I certainly don't believe I said that. What I said was that subjective opinions were a weak form of influence and that once you state them you may expect them to get challenged by more objective reason and evidence based opinions. In the end you have to admit it when you are wrong but you also have to stand your ground if you think you are right. And I do mean think. I'm a rationalist and believe the best decisions are made upon rational grounds. Rational grounds are evidenced by a calm manner, sticking to the point of the discussion, reasons and evidence. If these fit your arguments then you will have much better success in persuading others than if you simply express your feelings without explaining why you feel the way you do.

So it doesn't mean anybody should be quiet, but it does mean that if you haven't thought things through and developed your reasoning and evidence, you are probably going to get very frustrated when one who has reasoning and evidence, opposes your point of view. So frustrated you might find it necessary to attack their character in one way or another as if their being a bad person or not answers the question at hand. If the worst person in the world claimed that 2+2 equals 4 would you disbelieve him or her just because they were evil? Their character does not change the truth. So attacking them is certainly a great way to derail the conversation, but is a disservice to the public listening in, don't you think? The only way to combat strong reasoning and evidence is to have stronger reasoning and evidence and to present it clearly, forcefully, and honestly.

AJ
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I certainly don't believe I said that
Oh yes, you did. You implied it in several post and outright said it here:
The peanut gallery really should remain silent on the matter.


Nope, no silence!

Right now cross-tier down trades are rotting in the market in all my traders. I am not alone in observing this and I am not wrong to point out that same tier trades are getting picked up.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
T3 down trades are rotting in the trader. That does not make gems the new "scrolls".
No, but we know that many scroll players left, its why now scrolls are more in demand
than they would've been if just for the chg to Moonstone, but also there are less steel
boosted players.....1 thing is the fact that looking @ possible boosts, more of the Gems
possibilities are still around.... PLus, more static bldgs that give Gems , not a T3+? resource,
mean that more ppl accumulate gems, compared to the 8 other std. goods, AND just like
scrolls that abundance of opportunity to make Gems ( non manu ) means there will be
more players that try the failed (make 1 resource, trade for the other 8) approach.

If I wasn't checking the trader like constantly for 10-18 hrs blocks, I might agree I'm just
not seeing those trades.... but thats not the case. Do I see every offer, uhhhh...... no.

When I said Gems is the new scrolls, thats also a generic statement of sorts.....
There are exceptions to most rules, that doesn't make the rules themselves inaccurate.
Of the 9 standard goods, I see Gems offers rotting in the trader the most ( usually cross tier )
Just like I used to see scrolls offers. Demand for Gems is the lowest than for any other
Std good, certainly in Khel , but I see it on all 3 worlds I play on.
 
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