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    Your Elvenar Team

Cross trading

Nectar of the Gods

Well-Known Member
I have long wanted to put this out but I know a lot of people will get crazed about it but I am going to do it anyway

Shame on you, Tink, for stirring the pot. ;)

(Just teasing. :))

While everyone thinks its easier to cross trade and sees it as an equal trade I don't know if people realize that they are loosing goods when you accept Tier 3 goods for T1 and T2.

Actually, no I'm not losing goods. If I take a cross trade I am getting the goods that I want for the goods I have. I know all the arguments and I have read the maths until my head hurts. But it does not matter. What matters to me is I have X amount of goods that I am willing to exchange for X amount of someone else's goods. If I have 3 million marble and 195k of gems, and someone offers 10k gems for 22,500 marble, then I am not losing anything to take that trade. It is a win/win for both parties. I'm happy I got the gems. The person who posted the trade is happy they got the marble. There is no issue.

Now, if I didn't want the gems I would see that trade and immediately look elsewhere. Because it wouldn't interest me. Same as if someone was offering marble and asking for steel. My boost is marble so I have no interest in getting more, nor giving up the steel that I am not boosted in. So, I go onto the next trade. It really is the same difference. I don't see why everyone is so bent out of shape about people deciding to do what the game allows them to do and make cross trades. If you want the cross trade, take it. If you don't want the cross trade, don't take it. It's really that simple.

Except for a period of a few months when I first started my city in Ceravyn and was in a desert with no trading partners, starting a fellowship from scratch with all new players, and struggling to survive and still help my players, several of whom were also in deserts, I have had no problems putting up a trade in the trader and having it taken. When I need goods, I put up a trade and wait. The trade is always taken even when the trader is full of cross trades, 1 star trades, and 0 trades. (I do dislike seeing 1 and 0 star trades, particularly when there are pages and pages of them. But then I take a deep breath, exhale, relax, and move on.) In the FSs I am in that allow cross trades, which is all but one, I occasionally put up a cross trade, but I make it 3 star. That's a self-imposed rule, because I believe the person making a cross trade should do a little extra to thank the person who puts up with it and takes it. The exception to that is when I post a cross trade for sentient goods. Sentient goods...the bane of my existence.

Anything that is overdone becomes an issue, or at least an irritation. So perhaps that is where the real problem lies. Perhaps people have just gone crazy.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
No, but we know that many scroll players left, its why now scrolls are more in demand
than they would've been if just for the chg to Moonstone, but also there are less steel
boosted players.....1 thing is the fact that looking @ possible boosts, more of the Gems
possibilities are still around.

There are only nine possible combinations of boosts and steel/scrolls/dust and steel/scrolls/elixir are two of them. So you should be seeing a shortage of both elixir and dust, which means more trades offering gems will sit longer.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
There are only nine possible combinations of boosts and steel/scrolls/dust and steel/scrolls/elixir are two of them.
Exactly, thus what I said are true .... if steel/scroll boosted players left,
they took non Gems players with them. leaving 7 possible, 3 of which are Gems.
So more Gems players are still left, along with the forever T3 bldgs which are more avail.
than dust or elixer, all add to the Gems glut...
 
Shame on you, Tink, for stirring the pot. ;)

(Just teasing. :))



Actually, no I'm not losing goods. If I take a cross trade I am getting the goods that I want for the goods I have. I know all the arguments and I have read the maths until my head hurts. But it does not matter. What matters to me is I have X amount of goods that I am willing to exchange for X amount of someone else's goods. If I have 3 million marble and 195k of gems, and someone offers 10k gems for 22,500 marble, then I am not losing anything to take that trade. It is a win/win for both parties. I'm happy I got the gems. The person who posted the trade is happy they got the marble. There is no issue.

Now, if I didn't want the gems I would see that trade and immediately look elsewhere. Because it wouldn't interest me. Same as if someone was offering marble and asking for steel. My boost is marble so I have no interest in getting more, nor giving up the steel that I am not boosted in. So, I go onto the next trade. It really is the same difference. I don't see why everyone is so bent out of shape about people deciding to do what the game allows them to do and make cross trades. If you want the cross trade, take it. If you don't want the cross trade, don't take it. It's really that simple.

Except for a period of a few months when I first started my city in Ceravyn and was in a desert with no trading partners, starting a fellowship from scratch with all new players, and struggling to survive and still help my players, several of whom were also in deserts, I have had no problems putting up a trade in the trader and having it taken. When I need goods, I put up a trade and wait. The trade is always taken even when the trader is full of cross trades, 1 star trades, and 0 trades. (I do dislike seeing 1 and 0 star trades, particularly when there are pages and pages of them. But then I take a deep breath, exhale, relax, and move on.) In the FSs I am in that allow cross trades, which is all but one, I occasionally put up a cross trade, but I make it 3 star. That's a self-imposed rule, because I believe the person making a cross trade should do a little extra to thank the person who puts up with it and takes it. The exception to that is when I post a cross trade for sentient goods. Sentient goods...the bane of my existence.

Anything that is overdone becomes an issue, or at least an irritation. So perhaps that is where the real problem lies. Perhaps people have just gone crazy.
I may have stirred the pot but its gotten around and my traders in both cities have actually been offering more in tier trades soo I take all this as a win. the math did hurt my brain too lololol. I am just tired of not having enough t2 goods lolol
 

Nectar of the Gods

Well-Known Member
I may have stirred the pot but its gotten around and my traders in both cities have actually been offering more in tier trades soo I take all this as a win. the math did hurt my brain too lololol. I am just tired of not having enough t2 goods lolol
I hear ya. I have been upgrading my BTG in all my worlds to take care of any lingering issues. It helps--a lot.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Oh yes, you did. You implied it in several post and outright said it here:

Nope, no silence!

Right now cross-tier down trades are rotting in the market in all my traders. I am not alone in observing this and I am not wrong to point out that same tier trades are getting picked up.

There are two types of "expansions" of the meaning of a sentence: implication and inference. An inference is a logical step coming form the structure of the sentence. It can usually be demonstrated pretty easily (Aristotle called these "enthymemes", though the term has been badly mauled and come to mean something else today.) The other is "implication." An implication is not always seen by everyone and usually depends more on the reader's beliefs about the speaker. Allow me to "lecture" you for a moment on this subject. ;)

When we read we have expectations. We expect the person to display the attitude they have about this or that. Since we have the expectation that a person's attitude is "X" we tend to read "X" into what they are saying. That's not to mean it's not there, but, as studies have showed, those who believe a writer has a certain attitude see it in that person's writing more often than those who don't believe a person has that attitude. This is particularly a problem in race relations. A person says something and believes they don't have a racist attitude at the same time some hearing the statement believe the speaker has a racist attitude and hear the remark as more racist (though, thankfully, almost never is it blatantly racist). Notice that the statement is what it is and may or may not be racist. The point is some hear it the way they expect it to be not just because the words can be interpreted that way but because they come with the preconceived (sometimes based upon other experiences) belief about what the speaker means. They may be right. They may be wrong. The point is, all of us need to be careful about our own attitudes toward the speaker and aware that those attitudes may put the worst face on what the speaker said and see an implication he/she didn't intend.

My recommendation? As I've told many, many of my friends, students, family members, before, "we'd all get along better if we just put the best face on what others say instead of reading their words in the worst possible light." Or, as also has been said, "grow a thicker skin because even if you think it's an insult, most of the time it wasn't meant as one and probably isn't."

Cross tier trades in my trader are not moving as fast as non-cross tier, but they are moving quickly enough. Few last a single day and those that do are the ones whose value is too lopsided for most people. In other words, people look at the trade and decide it's not fair for them to take it. The reason they sit is not because they have fewer stars beside them, but because their perceived value to the purchaser is too low. If we didn't have the star system they'd still sit there. But then, so would a lot more 2-star trades as people would then measure the value for themselves rather than let Inno make their decisions. One of the reasons T2 is in shorter supply than other goods is because people keep trading T2 with T2 at a 2 star level. As people have noted, in some worlds scrolls are in short supply. But if you have crystal and/or silk why would you sell them for less than equal number of scrolls if you could? Which means you are purchasing scrolls at a level less than they would be at if everybody ignored the 2-star measure of their value and traded according to supply/demand. Thus, to encourage anybody to stick to the 2-star trade rule is to potentially have them paying more for goods than they need (or receiveing less than they could).

AJ

I have to ask, I can't forward anything until the basic clear cache/restart browser/try in incognito steps are followed

All done several times.

One way I managed to reduce crashes and freezups was to use a dedicated browser only for the game and NO firefox. Apparently the firefox has it's own daily rutine and suck the life out of my computer's memory etc... resulting in hopeless slowdowns and freezups. So everytime I have to use my pc for the game I use that 'clean' browser. This is not a real solution to the problem and I still experience slowdowns and freezups, but at least it happens less often.

I use a dedicated browser for each account and each city I and my wife have. We've had these problems on Edge and Firefox both. Which is all we use, btw. I don't like Chrome but have it and Opera as backups.

I've found the problems with firefox are, most of the time, in the add-ons. Running it without all those I find it more responsive than Edge or Chrome. Maybe the add-on interface is the problem, or some of the add-ons? Who knows, it's beyond my pay grade in any case. LOL

AJ
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Thus, to encourage anybody to stick to the 2-star trade rule is to potentially have them paying more for goods than they need (or receiveing less than they could).
I am scroll boosted, scrolls are in high demand. If I apply your standard I should be posting one star trades and feasting off my fellow players. That is not my game, have fun with it if you like.
 
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Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I put 3 more scroll manufactories in...13 fully upgraded in my Harander city. When trading my scrolls my priority is as follows:

New Players (anything goes)
2 Star Same Tier (smallest to largest)
3 Star Same Tier (smallest to largest)
Cross Tier Up trades(smallest to largest)
2 Star Cross Tier Down trades(under 5k)
3 Star Cross Tier Down trades(under 5k)

I always try and leave the multispammer trades alone. I assume they were posted for the neighborhood not for me.

I only take zero and 1 star trades from New Players with young cities, or players who rarely ask.

I usually run out of scrolls on the 3 star same tier trades.
 

DeletedUser27062

Guest
Yes we do know that. We played with them and they quit because of it. We dont know exactly how many but we are allowed to talk about observed (and in some cases actually recorded) reality.
Anecdotes aren't evidence of general trends or systemic events. Yes, you're allowed to talk about it but it doesn't make it factual.
 

shimmerfly

Well-Known Member
I am scroll boosted, scrolls are in high demand. If I apply your standard I should be posting one star trades and feasting off my fellow players. That is not my game, have fun with it if you like.
I agree 100%. Stick to what you think is fair.
(I am also scroll boosted and am considering pulling one out of storage.)
We lost several scroll boosted in my neighborhood and now I can't make enough. No, I have no proof except that they left long before the migration.
A few ( not named ) players like to try to "convince" you to do otherwise by a truly unique way of bullying.
I'm glad your not sucked in by it,
Thank you.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
@lyapo1 I agree that all players should be allowed, and even encouraged, to play as they like. It's just not fun when others tell you, and even imply you are deficient as a person for playing your own way. Like "you are a "gouger" if you take advantage of something in short supply by offering it at a higher than normal rate, or a "sucker" for taking such deals. My over-arching beef is when players try to tell others how to play the game and if they don't play it that way, try to punish them by calling them names, or worse, by making rules to try to force them to play other than they wish to play.

So play as you will and let others do the same. As long as nobody is condemned or black-balled for playing their own style, I'm happy. (FS rules excluded. If you join an fs with rules and break them, don't be surprised if you are booted. And don't complain about it.).

And, finally, thanks for the more relaxed tone. We may not see eye to eye but if somebody tries to poke our eyes out instead of discussing civilly, we won't see at all.

I agree 100%. Stick to what you think is fair.
A few ( not named ) players like to try to "convince" you to do otherwise by a truly unique way of bullying.

Bully is the use of intimidation and threats of coercion to get people to do or say what you wish them to say. Civil discussion is not bullying. It becomes uncivil when one side or both begin personal attacks; words to damage that persons reputation; actions do restrict the other person's ability to function; and/or the use of social pressure and shaming to get the person to do what you want (usually shut up). I've see that here and it's not pretty is it? It is not bullying when you simply and forcefully state your case and try to make it with reason and evidence in a relatively calm manner. If this were not true we'd have to say all debates are a "unique way of bullying." But since they aren't there has to be room for forceful and civil debate.

And as for persuading, of course we try to persuade. When a person says "this is fair," it's affect is to add weight to the truth of th statement "this is fair." Expressing your view in any public context is persuasion because you want the reader to agree with you and often expect them to do so. You may not realize the influence you are exerting in stating your opinion, but you are either reinforcing an idea by adding the weight of you opinion to it, or offering a different point of view and thus, attacking some other idea. In doing so you invite those with other opinions to respond and add the weight of their opinion to the other side. That's what humans do when they express themselves publicly.

Now many people rely upon their personal charisma and high standing to express what they believe to be the right thing to do or believe. Often they are not used to being challenged and, if they are, often react. There is a well documented pattern to their reaction.

1) First the engage in a debate of sorts. They try to explain their position to the "errant" member and get him/her to see the error of his/her ways.
2) Second, if the person isn't persuaded they bring in the "big guns," often members with even a higher social status in the group.
3) Third, if this doesn't convince the stubborn member to get with the program, they begin to denigrate that member by personal attacks on his/her character, and hints at the possible removal from the group.
4) Fourth, if the person still doesn't "go along to get along," they begin to isolate him/her. They attempt to reduce that person's influence in the larger group, usually by continuing personal attacks, letting everyone know that they should bother reading that person's posts, and so on.
5) Fifth, if they can they remove the person from the group.
6) And finally, if all this doesn't work, they just stop interacting with the person.

That's how groups function when they are suffering from "group think." This use of personal attacks, attempts to isolate and ignoring, and if they can, the removal from the group if possible, sound a lot more like bullying to me than trying to convince somebody with a long. relatively calm, discussion backed by reasoning and evidence. Civility is not bullying even if it is an attempt to persuade.

AJ
 
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