Cross trading

[Myne]

Much ado about nothing...

aren't you in a good mood

 

[Genefer]

For a 3hr production for level 27 Marble factory is:
8,800 coins
880 supplies
6,529 pop
1690 culture
20 tiles
3855 units produced

For a 3hr production for a level 27 silk factory
43,200 coins
4320 supplies
10,968 pop
3,499
24 tiles
4371 units of silk

For a 3hr production for a level 27 Gem factory is:
179,000 coins
17,900 supplies
13,057 pop
4,165 culture
25 tiles
4,906 units produced

Differences T3 & T1
170,200 coins
17,200 supplies
6,528 pop
2,475 culture
5 tiles
1,051 more units Gem than marble

Difference T2 & T1
34,400 coins
3,440 supplies
4,439 pop
1,809
4 tiles
516 more units Silk than marble

Difference T3 & T2
135,800 coins
13,580 supplies
2,089 pop
660 culture
1 tile
535 more units Gem than silk

How many workshops needed to pay for Gem production?
How many residences to pay the pop for the workshops?
How many tiles of space dedicated to culture for the workshops & the residences?
How many tile of space dedicated to roads to connect to factory, workshops, residences, and culture buildings to the main hall?

How much space are you paying for the Factory, Workshop, Residences, Culture & Streets for 1,051 more gems than marble?
How much space are you paying for the Factory, Workshop, Residences, Culture & Streets for 516 more silk than marble?
How much space are you paying for the Factory, Workshop, Residences, Culture & Streets for 535 more gems than silk?

It is beyond my understanding why players over produce T3 and under produce T1 & T2 goods, because the greatest asset in this game is land, and the absolute cost of space required to produce a 1000 T3 goods than T1 and 500 more T3 for T2 - is substantially higher cost in land for a small difference in unit production.

Consider market demand - 20,000 gems for 45,000 marble - in tournaments I have provinces that cost over 80,000 T1, but only around 20,000 to 35,000 T3 and 40,000 to 55,000 T2. I have some that cost 60,000 to 80,000 of all 3 - T1 goods. If I accept your 20,000 gems and give you 45,000 marble - I have to list 20,000 gems to recoup my 45,000 marble to pay for the provinces in the tournament. The player who accepted my 20,000 gems giving me 45,000 marble has to list 20,000 for 45,000 - it is a cycle and eventually the trader has 90% T3 for T1. Now playing tournaments, the spire, complete provinces beyond troops & building and upgrading buildings declines - of course city development declines. Eventually even players that balance goods production are trade within tier have a decline it trades.

Someone please enlighten me, because all I see are players that are not only assuming a net loss of the land in their city, but also creating a crash in the trader market. For 500 to 1000 extra units produced. If the only offer in the market are apples.... It is entirely unfathomable

 

[BrinDarby]

Someone please enlighten me, because all I see are players that are not only assuming a net loss of the land in their city, but also creating a crash in the trader market. For 500 to 1000 extra units produced. If the only offer in the market are apples.... It is entirely unfathomable

1st off, you have ommitted some variables....
2nd, you didnt include special bldgs, only reg manufacturing.

How many workshops needed to pay for Gem production?
How many residences to pay the pop for the workshops?
How many tiles of space dedicated to culture for the workshops & the residences?
How many tile of space dedicated to roads to connect to factory, workshops, residences, and culture buildings to the main hall?

how many workshops ? , certainly depends on CH of player and type of workshop.
same goes for residences for the population.....which also skew space used.

Now take bldgs lets say that progress supplies/T1/T2/T3/Mana/Seeds.....
CH 1-2 = supplies , CH 3-4 = T1 , CH 5-6 = T2 , CH 7-8 T3 , CH 9-10 Mana , CH 11+ Seeds.
How long will players take in those chapters and how many events will they play ??
The higher you go, the longer you stay in any range, thus the longer you have where
the same bldg , if won , will give a specific good ....
So, if players stay in CH 7-8 twice as long as 3-4, they are twice as likely to
win/earn a bldg that gives T3, not T1....

Sure there's a fair % of players that just think, I'll just make T3 and trade for T1,
but there's just as many players that refuse to balance thier city, thus trade 1 tier
for another tier. How about the ever present..... Boost % difference between players.

Also because part of the cost is not some of the lower tier goods, its quite possible
1 steel is more valuable than 1 gems, just in pop/cul/coins/tools per tile.

Bottom line is too many ppl don't rebalance thier city , production wise, and just
assume thier overages will be sellable for other stuff.

 

[Lelanya]

Unwatching now.

 

[ajqtrz]

Yep, sometimes the math gets my eyes all fuzzy. Then I do what most people do, I "sense" the value of the trade and take it if I sense it's good and don't if I sense it's bad. I'm not sure anybody really sits down and does the math for all their trades. Most of the time it's my "felt need" for the "felt cost" and if I'm flexible enough to ignore the dictates of those who wish to dictate how I ought to feel about the trade, I do very well. Trading is personal.

AJ

 

[Killy-]

Someone please enlighten me, because all I see are players that are not only assuming a net loss of the land in their city, but also creating a crash in the trader market. For 500 to 1000 extra units produced. If the only offer in the market are apples.... It is entirely unfathomable

Well it is not just 1000 extra units in your example but you have to multiply the t3 with 2.25 (taking the trader suggestion) or with whatever factor the market might give you.

 

[Myne]

Sooo, here we are....6 pages of 1st or 2nd tier goods demanded for 3rd tier offerings of gems...1 page of 1st or 2nd tier goods demanded for 3rd tier offerings of dust.....6 pages of 1st or 2nd tier goods demanded for 3rd tier offerings of elixir. The world is Harandar. The total pages of offerings for basic goods is 26. Hmmm, slightly less than I thought it would be by now.
In Elcysandir, I see out of a total of 15 pages (baby city) a total of 3 of 5 pages offering 1st and 2nd tier goods for gems...slightly over 1 page of 2 offering 1st and 2nd tier goods for dust....4 pages of 1st and 2nd tier goods for elixir.
The goods imbalance is not getting any better. As this rocks on, I think its just going to get worse as folks try to correct the imbalance of goods in their city. It's natural for people to try to trade this glut away for things they need. But if everyone is doing this, is this not feeding the shortage of 2nd tier goods if not many are offering them?
I know the same tier trades I post are snapped up quickly, and don't sit for long.
Is the answer for the devs to offer more buildings that feature 2nd tier goods as reward? Or do we just ignore it?

 

[Iyapo1]

You can ignore it, you can redesign your city to accommodate it, or you can join in.

Me... I redesigned to make sure the same tier trades in my neighborhood are still moving. Other than that, I ignore it. Players over producing T3s and cross trading are making their own problem worse but t3s are not devalued in tier. So same tier two star traders are not being impacted. New players are being hurt because sometimes they need to cross trade but as has been mentioned before, new players are pretty easy to identify and help.

 

[Yavimaya]

I used to always struggle with getting the t2 I needed. So for a long time I wouldn't upgrade certain event buildings that produced t2 at lower chapters so I wouldn't lose that to more t3. I eventually ended up upgrading some of them. I found that it helped me greatly the other week when I teleported my 4th t1 factory to add in a 4th t2 factory and now I'm not super short on my t2 anymore.

 

[Veesviewpoint]

OK, going to jump in...one more time...
In Khelonarr...we had a huge abundance of scrolls. duh
I'm Scroll boosted. Had to sale off 1 of my Tier 2 buildings, and several of my Moonstone Libraries...then rebalancing...I ended up on the short side of scrolls.
Thankfully I kept 2 of the Libraries, but now they produce Mana, dust, etc. (sigh)

So, I recognized that in my area...folks were happy and calling for Dust trades...and to this day remain willing...make those exchanges...to off-load their scrolls, etc. (I am Elixir boosted in Tier 3)

I have dust trades via a "set" from chapter 8...that I particularly want to keep...(Winter Event)...and it fits the way I want to manage my city. On occasion, I will place generous Dust for Scroll trades.
I would rather do this, vs trying to rebuild the extra scrolls bldg...it's enough for now to fit my play style...gives me the aesthetics I want in my city...and I always take the deduction for the recipient(s) as a gesture of good will. More than once...I have been told...everyone enjoys a good "sale" item. The trades are picked up without delay. This doesn't interfere with my team mates boosted trades. We always pick up our mates trades asap.

Thinking...sometimes there is more than one...or one hundred ways to look at an issue...
Those who want to take those kinds of trades...have there reason ????
Personally, I only take 1 star trades from my fellowship, or a neighbor trying to "build up their city" and will be able trade back with me/fellowship in the future. (Builds up good neighbors too.)
These kinds of trades are discussed and arrangements made prior to posting and assisting.

I abhor when folks throw out 1 star trades, just to take advantage of folks...I believe in a good "sale item", but not "duping" folks without any other way to obtain goods.

Please respond in politeness.
vees

 

[Veesviewpoint]

...My Tier 3 is Elixer, and balanced. Thanks.

 

[ajqtrz]

Consider market demand - 20,000 gems for 45,000 marble - in tournaments I have provinces that cost over 80,000 T1, but only around 20,000 to 35,000 T3 and 40,000 to 55,000 T2. I have some that cost 60,000 to 80,000 of all 3 - T1 goods. If I accept your 20,000 gems and give you 45,000 marble - I have to list 20,000 gems to recoup my 45,000 marble to pay for the provinces in the tournament. The player who accepted my 20,000 gems giving me 45,000 marble has to list 20,000 for 45,000 - it is a cycle and eventually the trader has 90% T3 for T1. Now playing tournaments, the spire, complete provinces beyond troops & building and upgrading buildings declines - of course city development declines. Eventually even players that balance goods production are trade within tier have a decline it trades.

Someone please enlighten me, because all I see are players that are not only assuming a net loss of the land in their city, but also creating a crash in the trader market. For 500 to 1000 extra units produced. If the only offer in the market are apples.... It is entirely unfathomable

(Bold added)

You are right in the bold area except that a player doesn't have to offer 20,000 gems to recoup his/her 45,000 marble. Each player can change what they offer. Suppose I get you 45,000 marble and offer 45,000 marble (which I really don't need) for 40,000 planks (which I really do need). You would say I was losing, but if planks are in short supply and I need them, in my circumstances I'm willing to take 40,000 planks for 45,000 marble. These are three star trades and nobody seems to have a problem with them, do they? As you say "Consider market demand." Not only is the market an aggregate of all supply/demand, it's also the supply/demand of the individual or group or local traders, or group of fellowship traders. And it's not uniform in supply/demand at any time or place. It's not stagnant either. So maybe the wrong equation is any "universal" equation applied to particular trades, real or imagined, that don't take into account the individual market conditions of the ones making the trade.

Or do we just ignore it?

You can ignore it as it will eventually return to whatever the real norm of the game might be. This game has been inadvertently manipulated by player imposed rules and what we are seeing in the increase of cross tier trades is human based market forces excerting themselves. It may be that some traders are making mistakes and there is no reason to not contact them and suggest a more balanced approach. But they will learn that on their own eventually if they are paying attention.

I used to always struggle with getting the t2 I needed. So for a long time I wouldn't upgrade certain event buildings that produced t2 at lower chapters so I wouldn't lose that to more t3. I eventually ended up upgrading some of them. I found that it helped me greatly the other week when I teleported my 4th t1 factory to add in a 4th t2 factory and now I'm not super short on my t2 anymore.

You adjusted to the market conditions, which is what I've been suggesting we encourage/allow players to do. This is what all players should do, in my opinion. If they did shortages and such would be short lived.

AJ

 

[Veesviewpoint]

Yes, thanks AJ

 

[Myne]

You can ignore it as it will eventually return to whatever the real norm of the game might be. This game has been inadvertently manipulated by player imposed rules and what we are seeing in the increase of cross tier trades is human based market forces excerting themselves. It may be that some traders are making mistakes and there is no reason to not contact them and suggest a more balanced approach. But they will learn that on their own eventually if they are paying attention.

And how, pray tell, will it adjust if the buildings that are offered in events keep offering only 3rd tier goods as rewards?
I have contacted them, the answer, invariably is that they have so many 3rd tier goods that they need to get rid of them.
Also, could you please tell me what "player-imposed rules" are at play here?

 

[samidodamage]

could you please tell me what "player-imposed rules" are at play here?

I believe it's the same old tired 'FS's have rules against cross-trades'. Pfttt. FS's have rules about having to participate in tourneys/Spire/FA's, etc; has that unbalanced the game? Of course not, but it doesn't fit the same old tired narrative.
Some players prefer a play style where their goods are balanced within each tier in quantities sufficient to allow them to progress in the game. They prefer to do this the simplest way possible by taking 1:1 same tier trades. Sometimes, the large cities in an FS like to clear the FS trader daily of all trades posted. To avoid having to adjust their production to take cross tier trades, and math out how they needed to adjust their production and or their preferred trading habits, they figured out the simplest solution: everyone in the FS post only 1:1 same tier trades. Everyone gets the needed trades at least once a day, usually more often since the large cities log in at different times. It seems only fair to post this as an FS requirement in the overview so potential members could make a decision for themselves before joining the FS.
*Personal note: I have 2 cities. The first one (started over 5yrs ago) joined an FS where there are no rules against any kind of trades. A bit over a year later, I started the 2nd city and about 5 months after that I joined the FS I'm in now in part because they had the 'no cross trades' requirement. Yes, I can and do learn the math behind how game mechanics work and am very capable of utilizing different trading methods. But, sometimes, I just want to play the darn game! That's what the 2nd city does for me. The fact that its a Gold Spire and 13+chest tourney FS doesn't hurt a bit, lol! To be fair, the first city FS is a 13 chest tourney/Silver trying to grow into Gold FS. It's just a lot more work over there, lol!
Somehow, these choices by players have put a bee in other players' bonnets. So, here we go...again...

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

There are way too many factors at play to just make any kind of blanket statement about cross-tier trades that are 2 or 3-star. Different regions of the same server will have different markets. Different servers definitely have different markets. Fighter vs Negotiator. Differences in city size/chapter/age. Age makes a big difference on what kind of event buildings a city might have that make goods. Age also makes a difference for people who were playing before the ratio adjustment from 1:4:16 to 1:1.5:2.25 was implemented. I remember those awful days when offering 1000 gems for 16000 marble was a 2-star trade. Players who never experienced that will never understand how the long-time players feel about the current awesome ratio for trades.

 

[Veesviewpoint]

Salute! Salute! Salute!
AJ, Samidodamage, Alram, Rp44, Lyapo1, shimmerfly,, Lavimaya, Enevhar Aldrion
Vees

 

[ajqtrz]

And how, pray tell, will it adjust if the buildings that are offered in events keep offering only 3rd tier goods as rewards?
I have contacted them, the answer, invariably is that they have so many 3rd tier goods that they need to get rid of them.
Also, could you please tell me what "player-imposed rules" are at play here?

First, the player rules you see are two. One says "no cross tier trades" and may be modified for special circumstances depending on the fellowship, but it is, in general a restriction on cross tier trades. The second is no 0 or 1 star trades, and again, there may be circumstances the fellowship has about those rules. I'm not against a fellowship having these rules, but against using them to coerce others into obeying them by calling them "gougers" and, in general treating them as bad players: AND in insisting and teaching others by example and by word of mouth that the star system actually tells players the value of the trade -- not the comparative cost of producing the goods -- but the value. In the first case -- putting down and disrespecting other people -- is just not good for a healthy social environment because it uses "coercion or implied threats of coercion" rather than sound reasoning to persuade. The second perpetuates a myth that it often harmful to the player's progression.

It won't adjust anything in the game but eventually, the players will adjust to the conditions of the game. Trading, being part of the routes to that adjustment, if it's taught incorrectly (i.e. that the value of a trade is measured by the star system and everybody should just use the star system to measure the trade), leads to less flexibility in trades and, in the end, the less flexible a trading system the slower the trades and, more importantly, the slower it's adjustment to supply/demand changes.

I believe it's the same old tired 'FS's have rules against cross-trades'. Pfttt. FS's have rules about having to participate in tourneys/Spire/FA's, etc; has that unbalanced the game? Of course not, but it doesn't fit the same old tired narrative.
Some players prefer a play style where their goods are balanced within each tier in quantities sufficient to allow them to progress in the game. They prefer to do this the simplest way possible by taking 1:1 same tier trades. Sometimes, the large cities in an FS like to clear the FS trader daily of all trades posted. To avoid having to adjust their production to take cross tier trades, and math out how they needed to adjust their production and or their preferred trading habits, they figured out the simplest solution: everyone in the FS post only 1:1 same tier trades. Everyone gets the needed trades at least once a day, usually more often since the large cities log in at different times. It seems only fair to post this as an FS requirement in the overview so potential members could make a decision for themselves before joining the FS.
*Personal note: I have 2 cities. The first one (started over 5yrs ago) joined an FS where there are no rules against any kind of trades. A bit over a year later, I started the 2nd city and about 5 months after that I joined the FS I'm in now in part because they had the 'no cross trades' requirement. Yes, I can and do learn the math behind how game mechanics work and am very capable of utilizing different trading methods. But, sometimes, I just want to play the darn game! That's what the 2nd city does for me. The fact that its a Gold Spire and 13+chest tourney FS doesn't hurt a bit, lol! To be fair, the first city FS is a 13 chest tourney/Silver trying to grow into Gold FS. It's just a lot more work over there, lol!
Somehow, these choices by players have put a bee in other players' bonnets. So, here we go...again...

1) Calling something the "same old tired narrative" is not advancing an argument. The narrative you imagine may be tiring to you, but it doesn't mean everyone has heard it or understands it.

2) In your own words you prove my point. You say, repeatedly, people "prefer" this or that. Your, my, or anybody's, personal preferences should not be used as the "must" of the game. You prefer a "simple trading style? Great, keep on doing whatever you want to keep it simple. You prefer "no cross tier trading?" Not a problem. Knock yourself out. You think more complex trading hinders the game? Don't engage in more complex trading. How you play the game is fine. How others play the game is also fine. But when people start trying to impose their rules so that their way of playing is the only way you can play without repercussions, that's not healthy. Especially if MY way of playing is to use a more complex trading style -- allowed by the game -- why should I get social grief for the way I play, when you don't for the way you play? If both styles are allowed, who has the right to sit and call me names because they don't like the way I play?

Finally, if you notice, it's not the choices you or anybody makes in how they play the game that "put a bee in somebody's bonnet" it's the attempt to tell others how they must play, and the attempt to make rules to enforce that attempt. If here were no rules and people were actually instructed properly in the use of the markets -- in particular that the star system should not be used as the final arbiter of what is "fair" but that they need to use their own judgement in measuring the value of their goods in their circumstances -- that would allow everyone to play as they wanted without the bad vibes one sometimes gets from players who think they know better.

AJ

 

[samidodamage]

So, here we go...again...

 

[ajqtrz]

I'm not sure what this means. Do you mean you've had this discussion and you are tired of it? Well, then, don't reply to it when you see it. That will make it much shorter and not trigger, probably unneeded, responses, like this one!

AJ