Cross trading

[Iyapo1]

In the end you make a claim and present no reasoning or evidence to support it. You seem to be saying, and I could be wrong about my interpretation of the matter, that T3 for T2 and/or T1 hurts the game both now and in the long run and that without some kind of adjustment to the game mechanics by Inno the problem will persist and perhaps become even worse.

Yes, I suppose you could be wrong.

Spoiler: Iyapo Said.

That is all you see because a lot of the T3:T2 trades

sit in the trader and rot. The T2:T2 trades get taken so you dont see them unless your timing is perfect. The quickest solution is to post T2:T2 trades, they will get taken and you wont need to worry about all the T3:T2 trades still sitting on the market.

There is also the perception of balance. My city is balanced. If I take T3:T2 trades i will have too many T3s(mine and yours) and not enough T2s because I gave my T2s to you for T3s which I dont need because my city is balanced. I need T2s. I can then trade the T3s I got from you for the T2s I need, or I can redesign my city so you dont have to redesign yours, or I can just not take cross trades. I can see why down cross trades are offered at 3 stars and I dont even like three star trades.

In simple terms the 2 star ratio indicates how much space you need to make it.

Just as an example: you can make 1 T1 in 1 square, you can make 1 T2 in 1.5 squares and you can make 1 T3 in 2.25 squares. So 1 T3 is

?
An MM spell on one type of manufactory would change the ratio as would uneven boost % but the golden abyss or the mountain hall have an equal impact every manufactory and wouldn't change the ratio.

I need population for T1s, T2s and T3s. The ratio of 1:1.5:2.25 is established by how much space it takes to produce the good.
The effect of the GA is global so it has an identical impact on all my manufactories equally. The ratio does not change.

Me too, because of the ease of rearranging I would rather arrange 10 t3s and work roads around them than arrange t3s, t2s and t1s. ...lol maybe in my Harander scroll boosted city I should just delete all my t1s and t3s and just make scrolls. There is no point in even pretending balance...that city already has 10 scroll manufactories.

Manufactories are not more or less the same size. When calculating a manufactory's footprint you have to include the population needed and culture needed to place the building. T3s require more room than t2s and t2s require more room than t1s. Thus the ratio.

@BrinDarby The forum already had a conversation about the definition of the word arbitrary. Just because you dont like the values used to calculate the ratio does not make the ratio itself arbitrary. There are hundreds of post here and on beta debating the criteria and mathing incessantly over the current ratio. It is based on the amount of space it takes for a base player to produce each good in their city.

You are completely ignoring the production output and the coin and supply cost for manufacturing each good. Literally there are hundreds of posts where this was mathed to the heavens over the course of several years. 1:1.5 was as close to even as it can be.

"Proposed changes
In an attempt to make the system more fair, by more closely reflecting the actual value of traded Goods in the star rating, we would like to adjust the ratio required for a 2-star ("fair") trade. Instead of the current 4:1 ratio, we would like to lower this to a ratio of 2:1 or even 1.5:1. This would still not reflect the exact value of the Goods 100% accurately, but it would be a lot closer than the current 4:1 ratio. Reaching 100% accuracy unfortunately will not be achieved for two reasons:

1. the ratio differs slightly between tiers, causing different numbers between tiers 1 and 2, and tiers 2 and 3; and
2. we want to offer a "round" number, to allow for an easier calculation on how to score a certain trade.

The real numbers we calculated are close to 1.5:1 for both trades between tiers 1 and 2, and tiers 2 and 3,"

I have tracked my spire costs across tiers and I generally fall at a 3:2:2, T1:T2:T3 but I have deliberately skewed that ratio just by altering my initial goods selection when negotiating each encounter. So, in my experience, the balance between tiers can be shifted by the player to some extent.

I have not noticed that gems are unwanted....I have noticed T3 cross down trades are unwanted and rotting in the trader which is not the same thing. All same tier trades are being picked up pretty quickly except trades asking for steel and scrolls(Harander) but even those move faster than the T3 down trades.

Can anyone post a screenshot of a trader showing pages of same tier gem trades rotting?

If you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth. Or not.
Cross tier down trades are rotting on the market in all three of my worlds.
Same tier trades get picked up within a few hours, with the exception of steel and scrolls on Harander.

Edit to add: 2 star trades or better

I'd say the T3 problem we are experiencing now is exactly because a bunch of players put their Scrolls mfrs into storage in response to the abundance of scrolls and built T3 production instead.

I am sure you are right. It has nothing to do with the silk/crystal boosted players who used to be able to progress in their city by making 1500k T2s per week. Keep 500k, trade 500k silk/crystal, trade 500k for 1000k+ scrolls. Inno fixed that problem and suddenly those players are short 500k+ T2s per week.
Scroll boosted players are less than a third of the problem...since so many of them quit.

 

[StarLoad]

@ed1960
How long did players kick around the idea that the old 16:4:1 trade ratio was flawed before it got changed to the current ratio?

Honestly I don’t remember but I am sure Soggy knows. Even in the old version I didn’t see the “radio” an issue I know what my goods are worth to me and that is all the really matters. If I want to trade 20,000 planks for 1,000 gems to help a player out I should be able to.
Es

 

[Lelanya]

@ed1960
How long did players kick around the idea that the old 16:4:1 trade ratio was flawed before it got changed to the current ratio?

Not long. We sorted that in half a day, over on the EN Forum. It was not well received and Marindor spent years working behind the scenes to get it implemented.

 

[Lelanya]

It was right before this happened:

https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/change-in-community-management.3394/

 

[LisaMV]

Here I am, end of day, trying to rebalance my goods:

 

[LisaMV]

...and let's look at T2's:

 

[Alram]

@LisaMV
I just put up my own same tier trades when I see that. They always get picked up. Don't yours?

 

[Iyapo1]

@LisaMV
Why not just post your balancing trades and go to bed?

 

[Zoof]

@LisaMV
Why not just post your balancing trades and go to bed?

I'm with you on that one. If your neighborhood and/or fellowship is doing it for you, don't feel bad about making them do the trading legwork. Especially if there's awesome neighbors with the reach of Goku's Power Pole. The idea of a (few) grocery bags of goods flying over the horizon towards your city on the end of an extendy pole amuses me

To be honest, though, my newest city, prior to being moved, failed to have such neighbors willing to use such superpowers and I needed to join a temp fellowship to get those trades filled. Having trades sit for over half a week sucked. Sorry about that, @LisaMV ; is that spot still in-the-future available?

 

[LisaMV]

I'm with you on that one. If your neighborhood and/or fellowship is doing it for you, don't feel bad about making them do the trading legwork. Especially if there's awesome neighbors with the reach of Goku's Power Pole. The idea of a (few) grocery bags of goods flying over the horizon towards your city on the end of an extendy pole amuses me

To be honest, though, my newest city, prior to being moved, failed to have such neighbors willing to use such superpowers and I needed to join a temp fellowship to get those trades filled. Having trades sit for over half a week sucked. Sorry about that, @LisaMV ; is that spot still in-the-future available?

OMG hello Zoof Even 3/4 asleep I was laughing outloud reading that... then saw it was YOU! Why yes, still working on that, you are on the 'list'. Sorry I've been AWOL, overloaded with warp-speed insanity in swap threads, and dealing with my sucky traders. ha ha ha

 

[Killy-]

@LisaMV I don't get the point of the pictures. Two people with cross-trade offers are on them and that's it.

 

[Lemon Wren]

Late to the party on this, but I take exception to the "lazy people" brush. Why do I offer three star cross trades? Simply because the game gives me way more T3 than I can use, even going all out on tournies and gold spire. I have five fully leveled T1's, two under leveled T1's and four T2's. For a long time I only had one T3 and recently stashed that so now my Wood Elves city has zero T3 manufactories. But I do have a lot of buildings offering both Dust and Elixer, so I sometimes offer the disproportionate excess at a discount to top off my T1 and T2 supplies. Basically my need for balance makes me want supplies to look more even than letting Dust (in particular) get out of numerical control. It's really hard to just let that number climb, while the T1 and T2 supplies ebb and flow. Anyway, it's not some plot on my part to leech off of others. Blame Inno.

 

[ajqtrz]

Yes, I suppose you could be wrong.
.........
I am sure you are right. It has nothing to do with the silk/crystal boosted players who used to be able to progress in their city by making 1500k T2s per week. Keep 500k, trade 500k silk/crystal, trade 500k for 1000k+ scrolls. Inno fixed that problem and suddenly those players are short 500k+ T2s per week.
Scroll boosted players are less than a third of the problem...since so many of them quit.

It's interesting to note that my claim you offer no evidence was in regard to the idea that the problem could only be fixed by Inno's intervention, not that you didn't have evidence that it was a problem. I apologize if I was unclear. I was contrasting your claim that only Inno could fix the problem versus my claim that the market has adjusted and will adjust over time and no intervention by Inno is necessary. In fact, I argued that the intervention by Inno actually came after the scrolls problem had already gone a long way in resolving itself and that the current T2 problem is a result of that very intervention. I can certainly see how it the words I used to describe my understanding of your position, since they included a summation of your belief that there was a problem, might be understood to mean I thought you didn't present any reasoning or evidence that there was a problem, but in context, the discussion was about the solution to the problem, not the existence of the problem. So in context, it was a miss reading on you part caused by poor communication on mine. Again, I apologize for my part in the matter.

AJ

PS. How many quit? You have a number or a percentage? Have you done a survey or asked around to see if this is true in other areas/worlds? I only ask as it's common for all of us (myself included) to assume what we see in our various locations is true across all servers and all areas of all servers -- or enough of them to warrant a generalizing statement and then to reason from that statement.

aj

 

[Iyapo1]

It's interesting to note that my claim you offer no evidence was in regard to the idea that the problem could only be fixed by Inno's intervention, not that you didn't have evidence that it was a problem. I apologize if I was unclear.

You were not unclear.

I suggested that players disgusted with the rotting cross tier trades should simply post their own 2 star same tier trades. I pointed out that 2 star same tier trades are getting picked up(Harander exceptions). I did not call for Inno intervention in any of my posts on this thread.

How many quit? You have a number or a percentage?

Of course not. Inno does not release such info. All I have is what I have seen and heard.
Your assertion "that the intervention by Inno actually came after the scrolls problem had already gone a long way in resolving itself", becomes even more baseless if you deny that one of the reasons it was "resolving itself" was because a lot of scroll players quit.

 

[Lelanya]

Hi @Lemon Wren
Personally I do start new cities to see what has changed since I went through the early chapters in the Spring of 2016, or the Summer of 2017.
My general advice to new players is to hang onto your tier3 resources. Later on you will need a lot more than you make, and at first you won't even realize how low you are getting (unless you game with Crackie ofc).
I am not making value judgments about anyone's game play, just giving the same advice I would pass along to anyone, strategy personally verified by me.

 

[Lemon Wren]

Hi @Lemon Wren
Personally I do start new cities to see what has changed since I went through the early chapters in the Spring of 2016, or the Summer of 2017.
My general advice to new players is to hang onto your tier3 resources. Later on you will need a lot more than you make, and at first you won't even realize how low you are getting (unless you game with Crackie ofc).
I am not making value judgments about anyone's game play, just giving the same advice I would pass along to anyone, strategy personally verified by me.

I saw someone else earlier in this thread mention that, as well, which I didn't know, but am trying to heed. The OCD in me just hates seeing 95,000 TI compared to 200,000+ T3 <shudder.gif>. It's really a personality flaw at this point. Kinda like how all my bath towels have to be the same color, size and folded and put away with the folds lined up the same way since I can't stand seeing towel randomness in the linen closet when I open it, lol.

 

[Iyapo1]

The OCD in me just hates seeing 95,000 TI compared to 200,000+ T3

You are not alone! I have 1500k of each T1, 1500k of each T3 and under 500k of each T2. No way am going to trade off my T2s for anything but T2s. Trading off T2s for T3s and T1s is what caused my current imbalance.

 

[Alram]

I just put in more T1s and T2s so all mine would be even.

 

[Lemon Wren]

I just put in more T1s and T2s so all mine would be even.

Haha, I've tried. Down to removing my sole T3 manufactory.

 

[Lemon Wren]

You are not alone! I have 1500k of each T1, 1500k of each T3 and under 500k of each T2. No way am going to trade off my T2s for anything but T2s. Trading off T2s for T3s and T1s is what caused my current imbalance.

The struggle is real!