Crowdsourcing changes to Enar's embassy?

[Count Rupert]

One Ferris Wheel every two months is not a "steady supply". That means if you want to put out 10 at a time, to fill a shard spot each day, you have to wait close to 2 years before you have 10 of them. I should know, because I did just that a couple of months ago because I had several Wonders hitting level 10 in quick succession. And these were end-chapter Wonders, so almost no rune shards stockpiled for any of them.

Steady enough. I have one in operation (which is the equal to the Enar fully leveled of providing one broken shard a day) and 3 in inventory. I'm not sure how a strategy to placing 10 ferris wheels at the same time is relevant to the discussion. You're certainly not going to have 10 Enar's popping out 10 broken shards a day. The comparison is a one on one. You were saying how a Enar's fully leveled giving 1 broken shard a day is less horrible. My counterpoint is a ferris wheel does the same job for a far cheaper price that a full level Enar's and has flexibility to make something else when you don't need or want broken shards. Maybe not as horrible as 1 week but still pretty horrible.

 

[Flashfyre]

An embassy is a focal point for diplomatic relations with other cities, and the exchange of knowledge...

...so provide 1 KP per Neighbor Help, scaling up by 1 every 5 levels. Second element could be either a PP (scaling in either quantity or strength as levels are reached) reward every X hours or a scaling increase in Neighborly Help duration.

 

[Ashrem]

My initial reactions aside, I have to ask
1. Has INNO ever adjusted the base type of a wonder before? Outside of fixing a known issue or a nerf to its value(which I think they did) . I mean a wholesale change like changing the GA to give you supplies not coins type of change?
2. What would INNO gain by making a change like this?

1) Don't know. Not really my problem
2) They profit from scarce space. A Wonder that almost no-one wants to place doesn't contribute to that. I think their goal is for every player to want every building, so making a little-used building more tempting is 100% to their benefit.

 

[Ashrem]

An embassy is a focal point for diplomatic relations with other cities, and the exchange of knowledge...

...so provide 1 KP per Neighbor Help, scaling up by 1 every 5 levels. Second element could be either a PP (scaling in either quantity or strength as levels are reached) reward every X hours or a scaling increase in Neighborly Help duration.

So player with 300 neighbours and a level 20 wonder can guarantee 300*5=1500kp/day? The Tome of Knowledge only gives a small number per day. And considering they value KP at 45 diamonds, 1500kp/day is over 60,000 diamond equivalent per day. That seems unbalancing. Maybe one kp/ chest for the three enighbour help chests, scaling up sp a total of 15 at 20th level?

 

[Flashfyre]

So player with 300 neighbours and a level 20 wonder can guarantee 300*5=1500kp/day? The Tome of Knowledge only gives a small number per day. And considering they value KP at 45 diamonds, 1500kp/day is over 60,000 diamond equivalent per day. That seems unbalancing. Maybe one kp/ chest for the three enighbour help chests, scaling up sp a total of 15 at 20th level?

No, not KP per YOUR help, but from your neighbor's help. That way, no one can over-farm it. So, if you get visited by, say, 50 neighbors, you get 50 KP. More visits, more KP. But I see the point of the scaling problem, so maybe just leave it at 1, then it will depend on how well your neighbors respond to your visiting them. Or, there could be a cap put on the amount collected, something percentage-based, possibly. Even have the cap increase every so many levels, maybe 10, so you'd really have to invest in leveling the AW to gain more. It would make the Embassy sort of self-fulfilling: you get 50 visits from neighbors, earning 50 KP, which you put into the Embassy to eventually level it.

Now, why do you say KP is valued at 45 diamonds? KP is cheap as far as the devs are concerned, or they wouldn't have made so many different ways to acquire it. I've got 5 Carting Libraries deployed (and 3 in storage), which gives me 5 free KP a day. I have the Snow Owls set, which is another 3 free KP per day (1 from each building). Add in the 9 extra possible from an evolved Moon Bear (if you feed it), and the 5 or 15 packs you can craft in the MA fairly cheaply, and you can already get 25 or more a day in addition to what you earn (which, if you use a KP spell every 2 days doubles your earning rate). Heck, I spent the past month or so parked just outside Chapter 14 and decided to not spend any of the KP I got so I would have enough to whip through the next chapter; I had nearly 1500 KP in the bank. If you're basing that value on the cost in diamonds to buy a KP, that's not a true value. That's Inno's 60+% markup charged to players who are impatient enough to not want to wait until they gain KP the normal way. Right now, 1 KP costs me 277K coins; do you really think that amount of coins is also worth 45 diamonds?

 

[StarLoad]

'underlying architecture' and 'legacy coding'

Generally, this is developer language that implies an outdated or obsolete code tightly coupled to highly specific design or operations such as the Wonders from the "original developers."
Many times the legacy coding of a game is the first years, and as new talent is brought in and a new code is added, old code must be locked in place to prevent any change. This will lead to items that cant be touched as it WILL break many other things and can induce a terminal fault within the game.
You see this with games that do not have new versions of themselves and create stand-alone upgrades like Windows does. this allows for updated designs and features without breaking old code. Think of trying to keep Windows 7 as the final version and then keep updating it for new hardware and software for 20 or 30 years. That is not a feasible business plan.

Lastly, there is one option that has happened many times, and that is the source code for many parts of the game was not properly saved/stored, and now that it is gone, well you cant fix what you cant see, so you cant change it either.

Ed

Note I am not saying this is the situation, just explaining why some things don't/can't/won't change.

 

[The Fairy]

No, not KP per YOUR help, but from your neighbor's help.

That doesn't sound fair for those players who are unlucky having very few neighbors or where most neighbors are inactive?

 

[Pheryll]

1. The mana per hour (when counting scouting time) nets a loss when moving from chapter to chapter as not enough advanced scout technologies are able to subsidize the effect of moving from one ring to the next (thus the time per scout is closer to quadratic while the number of completed provinces remains linear). The scout's tavern by itself does not reverse the course or make up for the loss occurred from the previous chapters. While other wonders (dragon abbey for example) continue to increase linearly (with completed provinces), Enar's Embassy gets worse.

2. The broken shard is nice when having a large number of wonders at rune stage. But now we are seeing wonders that require a significant amount of other materials to level up at that stage, including goods with a decay. Getting the rune wheel completed may not be what is holding up progress in these later wonders.

If we allowed for a random rune shard to be crafted from ten broken ones, then the wonder KP output of Enar's would be 50% higher than Tome of Secrets (100% if used on your own). So a change like that could make Enar's Embassy more relevant with a feasibly equal ability as the KP production from Tome of Secret's (whose KP you can also use on other things).

If the Mana/Scout were change to mana per hit point (or per size) of province enemies defeated, this could also be a boon for the wonder that would cause it to scale more equally.

 

[Ashrem]

Now, why do you say KP is valued at 45 diamonds?

Yes, it's overvalued, but it's the only value we've got.

 

[Sir Squirrel]

My initial reactions aside, I have to ask
1. Has INNO ever adjusted the base type of a wonder before? Outside of fixing a known issue or a nerf to its value(which I think they did) . I mean a wholesale change like changing the GA to give you supplies not coins type of change?
2. What would INNO gain by making a change like this?

Ed

I don't think they have Ed.
I think maybe make it like some of the newer event buildings that give you a choice to pick what it produces. Like broken rune shards is one option, supply instant's another and then maybe some coin rains. Maybe other options as well like portal profits or spells. I wouldn't mind 2 or 3 Magical Manufacturing spells a day. This should be fairly easy for them to add compared to adding an effect.

 

[Pheryll]

Here are some other ideas

1) Mana gains when catering based on orc catering cost.

2) Orc catering cost reduction.

3) Increases the trading radius for standard goods.

 

[Flashfyre]

Yes, it's overvalued, but it's the only value we've got.

View attachment 13853

No, that is an artificial amount assigned by Inno to snare unwary players, or those who are too impatient to wait for normal KP regeneration.

Value is a subjective trait, and is determined by BOTH participants in the deal: you may find that a good value, and I say it's a bad value. Therefore, no deal. Unless both parties agree that the value is satisfactory, any amount assigned to a product is just a suggestion.

All of which is immaterial to the point at hand: KP is clearly cheap, with so many ways to acquire it, that it's hard to claim earning 50 or more a day from an AW is somehow going to break the game.

 

[Flashfyre]

That doesn't sound fair for those players who are unlucky having very few neighbors or where most neighbors are inactive?

Only if the intent for revamping this AW is to provide the same reward for every player, regardless of wonder level. And that isn't how most of the other AWs work, since the rewards change as the AW is leveled.

As to a player's lack of neighbors, that is an unfortunate situation, but one which affects other aspects of their gameplay as well. With fewer neighbors to visit, they won't get the same amounts of coins and supplies as a player with more neighbors; they also won't get as many culture boosting visits, and so on. And that's not fair to them when other players are raking in millions of coins and thousands of supplies as a direct result of neighborly help. But maybe said player is not being very aggressive in making neighborly visits, thus encouraging return visits from as many neighbors as they can find? In which case, why should they get the same rewards (if said rewards are based on being visited) as a player who visits every neighbor in the hopes of getting return visits and makes trades with them so they get to know them as an active neighbor?

 

[Ashrem]

Only if the intent for revamping this AW is to provide the same reward for every player, regardless of wonder level. And that isn't how most of the other AWs work, since the rewards change as the AW is leveled.

The variables in AWs are always under the control of the player. They are based on other numbers we control through what we build, how we run our buildings, and how we explore. How many neighbours help our city is outside our control, and can change in a matter of hours as Inno relocates neighbours. You could level your AW based on getting 80 helps per day and have it cut to 40 or 30 a week later.

No, that is an artificial amount assigned by Inno to snare unwary players, or those who are too impatient to wait for normal KP regeneration.

Value is a subjective trait, and is determined by BOTH participants in the deal: you may find that a good value, and I say it's a bad value. Therefore, no deal. Unless both parties agree that the value is satisfactory, any amount assigned to a product is just a suggestion.

Value is only subjective when you have options. There is no where else you can go to get KP for diamonds except Inno. If you wnat to exchange real world money for KP, you have zero choice in the number of diamonds you pay, so the diamond value is 100% theirs to set. Since they are are a business, not a charity, expecting them to reduce the value of their product is optimistic.

 

[The Fairy]

As to a player's lack of neighbors, that is an unfortunate situation, but one which affects other aspects of their gameplay as well. With fewer neighbors to visit, they won't get the same amounts of coins and supplies as a player with more neighbors; they also won't get as many culture boosting visits, and so on. And that's not fair to them when other players are raking in millions of coins and thousands of supplies as a direct result of neighborly help. But maybe said player is not being very aggressive in making neighborly visits, thus encouraging return visits from as many neighbors as they can find? In which case, why should they get the same rewards (if said rewards are based on being visited) as a player who visits every neighbor in the hopes of getting return visits and makes trades with them so they get to know them as an active neighbor?

@Flashfyre I am talking about players where the neighborhood looks like this:

No matter how much you visit you won't get any visits back from all those coin cities!

 

[Flashfyre]

@The Fairy I agree players in that situation are not going to get many visits, but they already suffer more problems than not getting the full benefit of an optional AW. Considering a city in that position is going to be weak in trading, be less efficient in collecting coins and supplies, and may have difficulty completing certain quests in events. With regards to a player in this position wanting to build this (theoretical) version of the Embassy, I'd advise them to not bother, as they wouldn't benefit.

@Ashrem Where did I say I want Inno to reduce the cost of diamonds for KP? I stated that the value they placed on 1 KP is not a true value, because only 1 side in the transaction was involved in setting that value. Consumers were not (that we know of) consulted as to what WE think is a good value in that transaction. Therefore, WE can decide whether to spend or not to spend. And in the end, THAT power devalues the set price of the item, because if no ones buys KP for diamonds, Inno is losing out on a revenue source. Any retailer who saw that would lower the price in order to attract customers who would now spend on the item.

All of which still is immaterial, because KP are so readily available from so many other sources; a player can already gain 100 KP a day from various sources, most of which don't even require expenditure of resources.

 

[samidodamage]

amount assigned by Inno

And Inno is the party we have to convince that a change is reasonable and balanced. The word 'value' seems to have as subjective a definition as the word 'fair'. It would serve our objectives better to meet Inno where they are with regards to the assigned value cost of kp. After all, we're talking about an *embassy* and *diplomatic relations*. Isn't one of the first rules of negotiation to acknowledge where the other party is now and address it?
I'm not opposed to the idea of changing the rewards to kp and tying them to neighborly help in some fashion. I think the best way to work out one obvious issue with that idea is to discuss the proposed changes taking the currently assigned cost for kp into consideration.

PS: wouldnt this topic belong more in the suggestions section then on general?

No. Xelenia and then Helya tried to get us to work out issues with a major idea in the General Discussion section, then bring it to 'Ideas/Suggestions' for polishing. The discussions section is visited by more posters and allows for a wider representation of player input than going straight to the ideas section without a fully fleshed out suggestion. That would make the ideas section less chaotic and easier to manage. That section can be tough on mods: Example:
There will always be the problem of posters interpreting 'Ideas/Suggestions' as 'Complaints' and then posting
*Here's an idea: give us more pet food for our pets!*
*I suggest you stop making these event quests so that [insert descriptor for poster's city: small/large/fighting/catering/etc.] cities don't get stuck!*
*I tried to tell them on FB they need to do xyz to the rewards in the Spire and they told me to bring it here, so here it is. Fix this please!*
Obviously, those posters didn't even skim the 'Read Before Posting' sticky explaining the section rules. But we're the US market; as a group we abhor 'read the directions' on anything

 

[crackie]

But we're the US market; as a group we abhor 'read the directions' on anything

It’s also been a month+ and there has been no CM updates/activity in the Ideas & Suggestions section so I’m thinking we are still a headless hydra here in the U.S. market, despite what it says on paper. The worst ideas out of another market still has a better shot at reaching the devs than our best ideas.

@samidodamage At least people are willing to stop and ask for help. There is still a chance the Auntie, Uncle, and Cousin samis will find you in the Boonies to claim a free 4k TV.

 

[Ashrem]

@Ashrem Where did I say I want Inno to reduce the cost of diamonds for KP?

You didn't say it, directly. You are suggesting a modification which makes it extraordinarily easy to get large amounts of KP, which is a thing they sell. I am getting between 70 and 80 helps per day, which would be approximately 500 free KP per week, and I am not at the top of the visits ladder. There is nothing else that allows you to get 500 free kp a week. The closest would be tournaments, for which you have to exchange huge amounts of resources in the form of goods, troops, and/or time, to get even close to 500, so are actually quite costly in game terms.

Asking someone to give away a product they sell is asking them to devalue it, whether you use the words or not. A little giveaway is sometimes an investment in future returns. One kp per visitor is not a little giveaway. It would become a must-have AW instead of a difficult choice. the goal is for the people to agonize over whether or not to place the building, instead of the current state in which few other than diehard AW collectors will bother.

 

[Astram]

It’s also been a month+ and there has been no CM updates/activity in the Ideas & Suggestions section so I’m thinking we are still a headless hydra here in the U.S. market, despite what it says on paper. ...

Well not headless, but the vocal volume is lower, but that wont last long I am sure. And I asked and nothing new was moved in the last meetings, except some event discussion, and no I cant share anything.