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    Your Elvenar Team

Crowdsourcing changes to Enar's embassy?

Rythel

Active Member
catering is generally a 100% guarantee with the exceptions of the spire.
I should have been more careful with my wording. My proposition for Enar's would only affect the Spire's Diplomacy, not catering in the tournament nor province encounters.

I do agree we have lots of really great wonders that assist with producing goods. Caterers also have the unique bonus of using enchantments to help production along with being directly rewarded with even more goods for playing more frequently than those that battle. That's why I think it's okay that there are more wonders that benefit combat players over caterers. It would just be nice to have something to consistently work on that would benefit caterers in the one aspect where catering is not a sure thing.
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
I think it's the niche nature of it. We only get access to so many wonders, and having one be completely useless for most players takes away the opportunity for something they could use. Rather than only players who ignore events and are in 4 of 20 chapter
Which part is completely useless to most players?
Scouting? Completing provinces? Using broken shards? Needing mana?

I think it's great that there are lots of ways to get shards and mana. I like Enars because it isn't dependent on event or tourney or spell usage.
 

Myne

Oh Wise One
But, it's such a shame! It is arguably one of the most beautiful buildings in the game. We used to build and sell an AW we knew we'd never build to break runes. Whenever I had the space, I'd use Enar's and keep it around at lvl 1 until I absolutely needed the space back. Just so pretty.
There's frequently suggestions for a new AW to do [x,y,z] but the problem becomes: AW's are in place at least through Ch20. Maybe some of those ideas might lend themselves to a restructuring of Enar's. I forget which chapter we get it in and tbh exactly what it does now, lol! I'll try to look that up tomorrow and give that part of it more thought. I know we're going to have to take into consideration the point where you get it in the game.
Maybe we need to ask to reassign the benefits of that wonder. Sounds like a contest to me.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Which part is completely useless to most players?
As already shown: After the first few chapters, the mana production is lower than other buildings and the 1 shard per week is laughably irrelevant at that stage of the game.
"Most" players are not in the tiny demographic that both 1. don't do events & 2. are in chapters 11-14.

Perhaps not "completely useless", but "worse than almost every single other option available" Which amounts to the same thing.
 

MaidenFair

Chef - Head Philologist
@Alram, I'm sorry I never got back to you on this. I still don't have all the calculations I was intending to have, but here's the breakdown for my chapter. I just entered Chapter 12, so the best mana building I have access to in the regular build menu is Grapevines. They produce 600 in 6 hours in 4 squares. Assuming anyone is only likely to get 3 pickups out of that a day, that's 1800 mana daily, or 18.75 mana/square/hour. Enar's takes up 28 squares and at level 11, with the exact number of provinces needed to open chapter 12 (280), gives 50,400 mana per scout. For that to equal the Grapevine production of 18.75/square I would need to scout once every 96 hours (50,400/28/18.75=96).

That doesn't sound too bad, but I think the kicker is that the wonder increases your costs of everything else in tourney and spire. To account for this, I've been equating the amount of expansions I could add instead for the same cost increase (based on MinMax's spreadsheets), and counting those extra squares as if they were part of the wonder's base (the reasoning being that if I didn't have the wonder and I placed the expansions instead, I could fill those extra squares with mana buildings or whatever I'm trying to calculate at the time). This number changes but at the moment in my city, 1 expansion is equal to roughly 7.5 wonder levels, so a level 11 wonder is basically "costing" me an extra 1.5 expansions, or another 37 squares.
If we add those to Enar's base size, then it becomes 65 squares of space, which makes the equation 50,400/65/18.75=41.35. So now we would have to scout every 42 hours, which is 1.75 days, to get the same amount of mana as having Grapevines in that space. That may be doable, and it would be interesting to see a playstyle built around scouting as often as possible, even using timers to keep the scout times under a certain threshold as the player advanced, to see if it was sustainable.
For anyone who's not willing to commit to that demanding of a playstyle however, Enar's is probably less effective than other buildings in the same space, even discounting event buildings, which are all much more productive than the Grapevines. (Disclaimer: Despite the math showing me I shouldn't, I do still have Enar's in my city so far because, hey, those wonder levels are boosting my seed production in the trader, and I just can't quite bring myself to build the Dragon Abbey yet, so it's useful to still have a source of Mana on demand if need be.)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
the wonder increases your costs of everything else in tourney and spire. To account for this, I've been equating the amount of expansions I could add instead for the same cost increase (based on MinMax's spreadsheets), and counting those extra squares as if they were part of the wonder's base (the reasoning being that if I didn't have the wonder and I placed the expansions instead, I could fill those extra squares with mana buildings or whatever I'm trying to calculate at the time)
This is brilliant and should be the standard for building comparisons going forward.
 
I actually just jumped on forum to post an AW idea! Enar's always makes me laugh, what a hunk of junk! And my idea would be a great fit for the location of Enar's in the research tree, and I think appropriate for its size...so few changes needed. Check it out:

Spell fragments multiplier from disenchanting. At 100% basic level (plus bonus from MA improvements). Then, Enar's give 104%, 105, etc. (up to 200%?) spell frags per disenchanted item. Could even leave one of the crappy current abilities that it has now. With all the changes currently, and seemingly planned (i.e. cauldron) this fits really well into existing schema, and may require few auxiliary game balances

2 cents from peanut gallery thanks for your time
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
I actually just jumped on forum to post an AW idea! Enar's always makes me laugh, what a hunk of junk! And my idea would be a great fit for the location of Enar's in the research tree, and I think appropriate for its size...so few changes needed. Check it out:

Spell fragments multiplier from disenchanting. At 100% basic level (plus bonus from MA improvements). Then, Enar's give 104%, 105, etc. (up to 200%?) spell frags per disenchanted item. Could even leave one of the crappy current abilities that it has now. With all the changes currently, and seemingly planned (i.e. cauldron) this fits really well into existing schema, and may require few auxiliary game balances

2 cents from peanut gallery thanks for your time
I think they are going to have to come out with some kind of building that produces Spell Fragments, seeing new players can only have 1 Moonstone Library Set. There is no where near enough Spell Fragments in the game to run the MA and the Cauldron, unless the Spell Fragment part of the Cauldron is always ignored.
 
I think they are going to have to come out with some kind of building that produces Spell Fragments, seeing new players can only have 1 Moonstone Library Set. There is no where near enough Spell Fragments in the game to run the MA and the Cauldron, unless the Spell Fragment part of the Cauldron is always ignored.
I agree they will need to come out with a spell frag source. However, IF that source is going to be an AW, they will have to use some already existing AW or somehow retroactively add or something, because they can't wave to newer players "hey! You can have more spell frags when you level up the AW that you'll get in CHAPTER 21". Too far away. I can see a very strong case for a red panda like building that gives an extra X per disenchanted item, or similar, or expiring building.

I think I just an expiring building that does this? But it was laughable, like 100 frags every day, or 48hrs?, and lasted for a trivial amount of time. Again, I agree they'll need a solution - I have no plan to pour a million frags into cauldron for small random rewards. Makes me smile just thinking about how stupid that is.

Evolving building that gives 1000 frags a day would be a start.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
I agree they will need to come out with a spell frag source. However, IF that source is going to be an AW, they will have to use some already existing AW or somehow retroactively add or something, because they can't wave to newer players "hey! You can have more spell frags when you level up the AW that you'll get in CHAPTER 21". Too far away. I can see a very strong case for a red panda like building that gives an extra X per disenchanted item, or similar, or expiring building.

I think I just an expiring building that does this? But it was laughable, like 100 frags every day, or 48hrs?, and lasted for a trivial amount of time. Again, I agree they'll need a solution - I have no plan to pour a million frags into cauldron for small random rewards. Makes me smile just thinking about how stupid that is.

Evolving building that gives 1000 frags a day would be a start.
I agree, they ate going to have to do something for the players that can only get 1 Moonstone Library set.
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
Someone please check my math, as I am known for getting it wrong quite often and I welcome any corrections. :)
I need 280 provinces to get into ch12 and 320 provinces to enter ch13. That's 40 scouts that I'm going to send out no matter how long they take. A L30 Enar's Embassy means I will get 4,480,000 mana for doing something I'm required to do anyway.

280 completed provinces ×L30AW power of 400=112,000 mana per scout
112,000 mana ×40 scouts=4,480,000 mana

*the completed provinces will likely increase as I move through the chapter, resulting in more mana per scout.
**I looked at L30 because there's no reason to leave it low level since its a space hog at 28 squares of city.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
*the completed provinces will likely increase as I move through the chapter, resulting in more mana per scout.
In terms of mana there is no doubt it provides a lot. I can't see the devs changing this regardless of the complaining in this thread. The issue with the mana is the infrequency with which it provides it for something that big. In later chapters even with minimal scouting your scout will take 4days+. With how useless the second benefit is that wonder does nothing in your town for 4 days. There are also 2 other wonders that provide mana which for many towns are more efficient.

It feel like the devs have forgotten enars embassy. The promises when it was added and the designs for scouting are no longer on the dev radar (apparently) Those changes have devalued its benefit or prevented the benefits from every being realised. When they built enars they were working on scout times been around 24hrs. Honestly the mana benefit isn't bad by itself, it is just paired with probably the worst benefit of any wonder on one of the biggest wonders. With alternate sources for broken shards now as well and no change in the cap.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Someone please check my math, as I am known for getting it wrong quite often and I welcome any corrections. :)
I need 280 provinces to get into ch12 and 320 provinces to enter ch13. That's 40 scouts that I'm going to send out no matter how long they take. A L30 Enar's Embassy means I will get 4,480,000 mana for doing something I'm required to do anyway.

280 completed provinces ×L30AW power of 400=112,000 mana per scout
112,000 mana ×40 scouts=4,480,000 mana

*the completed provinces will likely increase as I move through the chapter, resulting in more mana per scout.
**I looked at L30 because there's no reason to leave it low level since its a space hog at 28 squares of city.
And you have to figure in the decay rate, possibly for a few days if you don't use the Mana you gained on something,
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I'm not a math whiz; yours looks accurate to me. I just can't justify the amount of squares it would take to get the same results in my cities. An admitted hoarder, I also have veteran cities that have been doing tourneys, etc for years. While my inventory of spells is probably outrageous, just 10% of my EE spells alone would generate the same amount of mana (on demand) via Dragon Abbey:
Spell Inventoryus4.png

280 completed provinces x L30AW power of 40 = 11,200 per spell
400 spells cast = 4,480,000 mana with zero decay*
This is in 20 squares. If you place a Maze of the Dark Matter, decay can be reduced to 2%, and with the mana also collected there, you could probably reach close to the same amount post decay, along with Enar's.
For me, that would be too much to coordinate mana supply/demand around scouting provinces. Much simpler to just sparkle my city whenever I need mana. Even for a player willing to do that coordination, they're still looking at using 58 squares to do it.
The perfect solution, of course, is to place all three of those AW's, lol! I remember when finishing S&D, seriously considering placing the Maze as well. But, space was at a premium, so 20 squares for Dragon Abbey was it. That may be different now. As demands increased on other decaying resources introduced in upper chapters as well as sentient goods and those factories, etc., I've needed AW's that improve production of those resources.
Don't care if I place the Maze, but sure would like to be able to justify placing Enar's (did I mention how pretty it is? lol!).

*zero decay: you use the spell when you need the mana, spending it as soon as you collect it.
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
I think this is why I like the Enar's. I'm lazy. :)
I did look at the 400 spells and that would require some serious changes in my gameplay. (I have 2095 spells, total.)
I did look at the maze too and if I collect every 3 hours for 100 days it will equal the mana from 40 scouts/400 spells. (Um, not going to happen.)
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
I think this is why I like the Enar's. I'm lazy. :)
I did look at the 400 spells and that would require some serious changes in my gameplay. (I have 2095 spells, total.)
I did look at the maze too and if I collect every 3 hours for 100 days it will equal the mana from 40 scouts/400 spells. (Um, not going to happen.)

What a lot of people miss with the DA mana option is it is less about what your stash of spells is and more about how many you can earn. Late chapter demands on mana can burn through that stash so fast, so unless your earning a lot of spells consistently your ability to produce mana on demand can reduce to simply what you can earn each week. That varies a lot by person and depends heavily on tournament play and approach as well as MA approach

Regardless of your approach to mana and enars something to consider is using those spells regularly (if your not already). They make a huge difference to your town, what it can do and/or what it needs

In terms of maze it is another huge wonder so it gets a lot of negativity. Again the huge mana demands in the later chapters do make it interesting. Its bigger benefit can often be in the mana saved not the mana produced, a passive benefit. This varies a lot by town design and use of spells/DA. Even with a DA and a huge amount of spells I am using spells liberally in my town I have found I still need some mana producing buildings in my town to ease the burden of mana. 1.8mil mana for T1 upgrades, 3.8mil for MH upgrade plus mana for other things and high level or late game wonders. Mana is such a non issue a little after woodelves for a long stretch of the game, but it later chapters the demand is very high forcing people to rethink their approach if they didn't prepare ahead.
 
Ooooooh you know what they could do!? Make it so we can disenchant broken shards into spell fragments. Enar's would get built, players would have access to more frags earlier in the game, and it would also entice people to player deeper into the tourney (frag per 6th round of each province after 10 for anyone who doesn't know). I would think it's good for inno for people to play tourney?
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper, Keys to the Gems
Ooooooh you know what they could do!? Make it so we can disenchant broken shards into spell fragments. Enar's would get built, players would have access to more frags earlier in the game, and it would also entice people to player deeper into the tourney (frag per 6th round of each province after 10 for anyone who doesn't know). I would think it's good for inno for people to play tourney?
That is an interesting idea, I wonder if it would be hard to code.
 
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