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    Your Elvenar Team

do the evolution bases seem unbalanced

DeletedUser15604

Guest
i really am having trouble understanding why the evolution bases seem to favor the battle one. They all cost the same to "feed" and yet u only get one use basically if u have used the goods one.. it barely last over 3 hours where the battle one last much much longer.. I also dont understand how a battle one produces a portal profit.. it seems like it would make some troops or something and the goods would make that but alas it only produces tier 1 stuff and only mid thousands at that.. sorry for complaint but I really just don't get it.
game on and game hard
Everhad
 

DeletedUser9601

Guest
Caveat all of this with the fact that I thought Fire was hands-down the best option for me. Also I'm going to assume level 10 evolutions, since you mentioned portal profits. I'm also going to assume this is for people fairly well into guest races (say Woodelves and onward), since you mention the desirability of portal profits (which I consider wasted on races like Dwarves and Fairies - they're already easy enough).

But I don't think the bases are very overpowered. First, all 3 give similar amounts of gold, and no one cares that much about gold. The supplies are nice, but not unique to Fire. The broken shard is only useful at times, and honestly most people fighting in tournaments a lot are always at the 10 shard cap. So it really comes down to the portal profit. Which is awesome. No disputing that. But its also a reward that requires basically all of your event currency to achieve, and 16 squares. And its equivalent to 7 Trading Outposts. Which are not that hard to come by.

I think Fire can be overpowered with the right synergy of certain wonders. But its really only overpowered when its being fed. But the battle one needs to be 24 hours, otherwise it would be relatively useless for tournaments (and I think tournaments are its primary applicability - more later). You would only get to use pet food for 1 round of fighting if it was a short timer, like 3 or 4 hours. No one is spending the relics and MA academy time on pet food for 1 round of fighting at 50% boost. Its just not worth it.

Now, if you have Timewarp, and you can cram 3 rounds of fighting into 24 hours, the buff becomes great. But that also means 1. you're done with Constructs (not applicable for most) and 2. you devote 2000 or so KP into an AW. You can also get great value by scouting for 2 weeks or so (not clearing though), then fighting all those provinces at once. Of course there's a downside of opportunity cost (e.g. 2 weeks of not getting the expansions, KP, relics that those cleared provinces will give). So even then its not "overpowered."

I think the base rewards for Aureate and Storm are solid, especially at level 10. I like to think of those tier 1 goods from Aureate less as goods, and more as free population. Because now I can probably delete a tier 1 factory. Storm is also a lot of mana, and everyone loves KP. I'm down a bit on mana, because when you're in between chapters, there's really no use for mana. But that's true for very few players.

As for the feeding rewards, I haven't done the math. But I'd think certain playstyles (i.e. lots of factories) really benefit. But even if not, I'd think if you time your feedings appropriately (i.e., feed right before collecting a 9hr production, while having MM spells up, then immediately running a 3hr production) you can get close to replacing a factory. And again, that basically means that you save population anywhere between 2K at low levels to 14K at higher levels. But you're right. If you only log on once per day, or if you log on 3 times per day, but with 7 hours in between, its hard to use Storm or Aureate well.

Also, flip around the population analysis and think about what that extra 5-10% (madeup numbers) of goods can get you each week in a tournament in catering. If you can take 3-4 more provinces to round 2, that's another 15-20KP (plus other benefits of tourney participation). Or maybe it pushes your fellowship from chest 4 to chest 5, and then your whole FS is getting 25X more rewards. And if everyone in your FS takes this approach, maybe its everyone doing more in the tourney, and now maybe you're at 7 chests.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
. But [fire is] really only overpowered when its being fed.
Isn't the uptime on the Firephoenix close to 100%?
There are about 100 recipes in crafting with 7daysx5boxesx3flips=105 available per week 9 of which are pet food, so you should be able to craft at least 3 pet food per week and if you time things right that's all 6 tournament rounds.

Comparatively the best use for the other birds is for a 9h+3h which costs 7 pet food per week and still only covers you for half of your productions.

I think the Fire Phoenix does seem overpowered compared to the others, but IMO that's OK because fighting takes 7x as many clicks.:p
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
And its equivalent to 7 Trading Outposts. Which are not that hard to come by.
How did you come up with both of those conclusions? ;)

And I don't think Fire would be useless even with 3hr feeding windows. It will just be geared even more to advanced tournament players than it already is. I would gladly craft 5-6 pet foods a week - there is more than enough relics coming from the tournaments to sustain that if you go far. Especially if you focus on using your boosted relics. I mean, what else are you going to spend all the relic surplus for?
 

DeletedUser15604

Guest
im saying that if u have the fire which i do in my bigger town u can feed it and do all ur battles for the day in one feeding... in my otther town which i had tried to make as more of goods production town can only get ur 9 hour time and maybe a 3 hr after that.. and if u go to cater ur way thru it literally doesnt boost ur goods enough to help that much and u have also need to feed it everyday where are on fire really only the last few days of the tourny... the main gripe is the freebie sttuff on the goods one.. i mean really 6k of tier one stuff every 48 hours. ohhhhh wow... maybe if it was tier 3 or portal profit like fire .. anyway done with griping..
and as a side thought.. what is up with all the dead towns in khelonaar.. i literally stopped counting at 40 yesterday.. talk about hard to trade now lolol
 

DeletedUser1016

Guest
I would gladly craft 5-6 pet foods a week - there is more than enough relics coming from the tournaments to sustain that if you go far.
Relics are not a problem with advanced players - I feel it's the CC spells that become a challenge - I run out when crafting pet food and loose out on crafting other items [rainbow cages & unicorns; military boosted buildings, etc]...
 

DeletedUser2207

Guest
where is the AW level 6 = 30, level 11 = 45 coming from? They display as 12% and 18%
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
Relics are not a problem with advanced players - I feel it's the CC spells that become a challenge - I run out when crafting pet food and loose out on crafting other items [rainbow cages & unicorns; military boosted buildings, etc]...
Pet food is only 2 CC a pop. Have you upgraded your MA? This makes a big difference in speed of CC production. Also, other items? I wish I could craft military buildings, but I haven't seen any in quite a while, with all this pet food flood. And you really only need UUU, as two others are basically the same as your fed phoenix, except phoenix works for all units (I know you can stack, but this sounds like an overkill). And UUU is only expected about once per week, so that's another 4 CC.

And why do you want rainbow cages and unicorns crafted in volume? Usually, anything you get from events is significantly better, and you get that for free (well, the opportunity cost). And given how small these are, I don't think they would make a material difference. Or are you going for your culture requirements with mass 1x1 and 2x1 buildings?
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Relics are not a problem with advanced players - I feel it's the CC spells that become a challenge - I run out when crafting pet food and loose out on crafting other items [rainbow cages & unicorns; military boosted buildings, etc]...
The current best value for diamond spending is maxing your magic academy. I also think that CC productions is one of the best uses of time instants. I have 40 bags of feed in storage, and haven't run out of CCs since the event started.
 

DeletedUser9601

Guest
How did you come up with both of those conclusions? ;)

And I don't think Fire would be useless even with 3hr feeding windows. It will just be geared even more to advanced tournament players than it already is. I would gladly craft 5-6 pet foods a week - there is more than enough relics coming from the tournaments to sustain that if you go far. Especially if you focus on using your boosted relics. I mean, what else are you going to spend all the relic surplus for?
7 trading posts at 50 days of production per post = 350 days of collections (since its 1/48 hours)
1 year of the phoenix = 365 days of collections (at best)
Of course Phoenix lasts more than a year, but I think that's a reasonable reference point. Getting 7 trading posts over the entire year isn't too taxing (assuming Inno keeps offering them). And there's a very real cap on PPs. So 182 5% PPs per year is probably more than enough, given the availability of PPs for free elsewhere.

I don't think you could support crafting 6 pet foods per week with catalysts AND craft anything else. Which as a tournament player, doesn't seem like the right balance of catalysts. If a UUU is 4 catalysts for 6 rounds of a tournament, and pet food is 2 catalysts for 1 round? Especially for early rounds where attrition just isn't that bad. Plus that assumes a level 5 MA.

And expecting to always use boosted relics on pet food is not realistic. 2/3rd of the time, sure (assuming your sentient boosts are also surplus-ed, though that's not the best assumption, given crafting costs and AW wonder costs). But that's a relatively minor concern, admittedly.

But I agree with your general consensus, and I didn't mean to imply a 3-hour fire boost would be useless. However, it would make me a lot less excited to devote the necessary resources to levelling it. And I found Storm/Aureate to be meh, but I would have looked a lot closer at the math if it was only 3 hours.
 
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DeletedUser9601

Guest
Isn't the uptime on the Firephoenix close to 100%?
There are about 100 recipes in crafting with 7daysx5boxesx3flips=105 available per week 9 of which are pet food, so you should be able to craft at least 3 pet food per week and if you time things right that's all 6 tournament rounds.
In theory, sure. But that assumes:
1. Level 4 or 5 MA to create enough catalysts to make food and anything else you might want.
2. You're not sleeping through any recipe resets. I sleep through at least 1.
3. You're crafting food right at the start of the recipe flip, and collecting it before the next flip, so that you get 5 recipes next flip (instead of 4).
4. You're timing your tournaments very well.

Its doable, but it requires significant in-game attention. Whereas the other buildings are much more "use when needed" (kind of like the Dragon Abbey spells). You can use them to boost production during a really necessary tournament for catering, or to push through upgrade or tech costs. I do think there's some under-estimated value there.

Again, not undermining Fire's benefits. I think Fire is hands-down the best, and the PP base production is really nice given my playstyle. I'm just saying its not doom-and-gloom if people went with the other phoenixes.
 

DeletedUser9601

Guest
im saying that if u have the fire which i do in my bigger town u can feed it and do all ur battles for the day in one feeding... in my otther town which i had tried to make as more of goods production town can only get ur 9 hour time and maybe a 3 hr after that.. and if u go to cater ur way thru it literally doesnt boost ur goods enough to help that much l

Yeah, but that's also the reality of goods vs fighting in tourneys, and that's never changing.
Goods can't and don't equal troops, because goods have lots of uses. Tech research, catering, building upgrades, guest race goods.
Troops have 1 use. Fighting.
So of course troops are going to be more bang for your buck than goods.
 

DeletedUser1016

Guest
Have you upgraded your MA? This makes a big difference in speed of CC production.
Level 5, yes it does make a big difference, yet if you do focus on producing pet food, the CC spells do get exhausted.

Pet food is only 2 CC a pop.
True - with a level 5 MA, I think it only produces four [4] CC spells a day, if you are diligent in harvesting, which is only two [2] pet foods a day and nothing else.

The current best value for diamond spending is maxing your magic academy.
TOTALLY agree - I don't "pay to play" so my earned diamonds went to my MA once crafting became a thing. Really good advice!!

I also think that CC productions is one of the best uses of time instants.
I haven't crafted any since I am focused on pet food, hence not enough "extra" CC spells yet. Perhaps once I stock up on pet food as you have I can give creating it a break...

I have 40 bags of feed in storage, and haven't run out of CCs since the event started.
I currently have 20 in storage and only use it on my Fire Phoenix { I chose this phoenix since I do tourneys}, I also have the Timewarp AW, so I just got to the point where I can do three [3] rounds per one [1] pet food. Since that just happened, I think now I can stop making pet food and go after other things to craft, yet if I had the either of the other phoenix, I probably would want more pet food then I have ...so CC spells would continue to be 'my' bottleneck.

And why do you want rainbow cages and unicorns crafted in volume?
Lol...I really don't craft these in volume... :) - yet when ever they do show up I'd like to have CC spells available to craft them, because they are very high in "peeps" and can be placed virtually anywhere. It's also nice to have in the event I have to get rid of event-buildings to accommodate the next visiting race. I usually remove any of my "free" building and event building before I will remove a more significant building such as WS or Manufactory, etc.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I also think that CC productions is one of the best uses of time instants. I have 40 bags of feed in storage, and haven't run out of CCs since the event started.
I haven't crafted any since I am focused on pet food, hence not enough "extra" CC spells yet. Perhaps once I stock up on pet food as you have I can give creating it a break...
You can make CCs and craft pet food at the same time. They are completed in different areas of the academy. Mine produces CC 24/7, regardless of whether I am crafting.
 

DeletedUser1016

Guest
You can make CCs and craft pet food at the same time.
...lol....yes I know that. I didn't mean to be vague, sorry. - I meant I can't craft "instants" because of the lack of CC spells if I'm aggressively crafting pet food. Now that I've got a stock pile things may be better...I've banked 20 CC spells since I've stopped making pet food...yet [again] if I had the Storm Phoenix or the Aureate Phoenix, that might not be the case.

Thanks -
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
7 trading posts at 50 days of production per post = 350 days of collections (since its 1/48 hours)

You forgot to divide that by 2 for collecting every two days from them. So 7 trading posts over 50 days will get you 175, not 350, and really only 168 because even with near perfect timing, you will come up seconds or minutes short of having enough time to get that final collection from each building.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
where is the AW level 6 = 30, level 11 = 45 coming from? They display as 12% and 18%
From sloppy sloppy soggy research- looked up needles, saw 30 in the column (training speed) thought it was damage.:oops:

FIXED
Another way to compare:

Example 1:
All of your wonders are at level 6
Then your damage is 100+12= 112
With level 10 Fire 100+12+50 = 162
That's a 44% increase

Example 2
All of your wonders are at level 11
Then your damage is 100+18 = 118
With level 10 Fire 100+18+50 = 168
That's a 42% increase

Example 3
All of your wonders are at level 6
Your relics boost is at 500%
Then your production is 100+500+48 =648
With level 10 Aureate active half the time 100+500+48+150 =798
That's a 23% increase

Example 4
All of your wonders are at level 11
Your relics boost is at 700%
Then your production is 100+700+27 =872
With level 10 Aureate active half the time 100+700+72+150 =1022
That's a 17% increase

I'm not sure how to include Storm here since there are too many variables...
In theory, sure. But that assumes:
1. Level 4 or 5 MA to create enough catalysts to make food and anything else you might want.
2. You're not sleeping through any recipe resets. I sleep through at least 1.
3. You're crafting food right at the start of the recipe flip, and collecting it before the next flip, so that you get 5 recipes next flip (instead of 4).
4. You're timing your tournaments very well.

Perfect play gets you 9 pet foods crafted per week. Very reasonable usage only requires 1/3 of that.
So statistically logging in only during your lunch break is enough to to have 100% uptime for all 5 rounds.
 

DeletedUser15604

Guest
great breakdown soggy!! ty.. i knew i was being short changed.. they need to a redo button so i can undo the blue evo in the town i put it in and replace with fire lol... thanks everyone
did anyone have any idea about all the dead towns in khel?? dont get me wrong love the easy gold lol just not as good to trade lol
;
 

DeletedUser9601

Guest
You forgot to divide that by 2 for collecting every two days from them. So 7 trading posts over 50 days will get you 175, not 350, and really only 168 because even with near perfect timing, you will come up seconds or minutes short of having enough time to get that final collection from each building.
I said that in the quoted text. but it's the same math for Phoenix regardless. Both are on 48 hour timers.
 
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