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    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Elvarian Games discussion

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Seems the game will try and keep you from over scouting too much as I scouted a province to see if I could reach a player to trade with for no trader fee. I knew going into the scout that I would be catering, but the catering requires orcs. I'm chapter 6 and under scouted by 14 at this point. Not many orcs in chapter 6. lol.

It is not just the number of provinces, but also the number of rings. If you just shoot out in a straight line with your scouting, you will need orcs long before you scout 222 provinces. And that number is Ring 11.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Early game, chapter 3-5, there is a really tight spot. The cost for clearing a map province rapidly outpaces production ability and the enemy squad size increases smack your troops deader than dead.
Over scouting in that one little point can cause problems. The more you over scout the worse the problem. So for the period between chapter 3-5 players should only scout one province ahead of need. In other words...only have one open province at a time and try to keep the number at or below chest limits in the tech tree.
I have taken several cities through this. It has been this way for years. Exactly where a player hits this spot and how long it takes to dig out is flexible. Also the military boost buildings and instants are like a camp shovel, they can get you out quick.....i imagine they can also result in a much deeper hole.

Other than that one point....stay off the orc wall until you get to orcs( over 222 provinces).
It never ceases to amaze me, the bad advice that is routinely given by the "experts".
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I'm pretty excited about this event building, although the 'switchable production' aspect of it does seem a bit useless to me. This is a seeds-producer, and using it any other way just strikes me as silly.

My numbers for my city (Ch15) look like this:

When Producing Seeds: Saves 14 squares from Pop, 1.43 from Culture, 35.78 from Seeds production for total = 51.20 squares (or 2.65 Festival Merchants).
When Producing S2 Goods: Saves 14 squares from Pop, 5.56 from Culture, 36.04 from S2 production for total = 55.60 squares (or 0.76 S2 Manufactories).
When Producing Vallorian Guards: Saves 14 squares from Pop, -15.54 from Culture, 62.29 from Vallorian Valor for total = 60.75 squares (or 5.79 Vallorian Valors).

On the face of it, it seems like using the building for S2 or VG would be a good idea (it saves more squares, right?), but I don't think it really is. For S2 production, using 1 MM spell on a manufactory outproduces this building; so unless you constantly keep all of your S2 production buildings MM'd already (and still are lacking S2 goods), you're probably better off spending the enchantment than using this building to produce S2. For Vallorian Guards, a handful of supplies and a 5-hour time boost will give you as much VG unit production as this building will. Because those things (supplies, time boosts, enchantments) are quite a bit easier to come by than seeds, it seems like seeds really is the best option with this building. But would love to hear thoughts from others as well!
Thanks for breaking it down. I too am in 15 and I guess I wasn't doing the math. I think this building will work for me after all. I currently have 10 FMs for seeds out. I can take one out and for just a little extra space, can put this in. Worth it.
 

OIM20

Well-Known Member
It never ceases to amaze me, the bad advice that is routinely given by the "experts".
What did @Iyapo1 say that was 'bad advice'? (And where did they claim to be an expert?)

I'm just going to clarify how their post (the one you quoted) reads to me, so maybe you can tell me where the advice is bad? (I really am curious as to what's being perceived as bad, because I acknowledge that I don't know everything and that I frequently misunderstand things, so I'm trying to clarify the point, not cause a riot like what happened in that other thread over in I&S.)

Early game, chapter 3-5, there is a really tight spot. The cost for clearing a map province rapidly outpaces production ability and the enemy squad size increases smack your troops deader than dead.
This is, admittedly, a subjective observation on the surface. But experience has shown that there is truth in it. For example:
  • A crystal province in ring 2 on one of my cities is requiring 120 T1+2 goods for negotiations, and has a squad size of 103. (2 different encounters; only 1 encounter in this province didn't require any goods. All others are T1+2 in addition to supplies and gold.)
  • A steel province in ring 4 on one of my cities currently requires crystal, scrolls, and silk. These items have not yet been researched in that city. I currently only have T1 goods there. So, while this city falls outside the chapter 3-5 window as quoted, it also demonstrates the problem.
  • A marble province on ring 5 in a different city has a squad size of 228 to my 114 - that's upgraded to squad size 8 on the tech tree.
  • An elixir province in ring 5 has a squad size of 430 - that's not open to tourney yet; I still have two encounters unresolved in it.
With that in mind, the advice
Over scouting in that one little point can cause problems. The more you over scout the worse the problem. So for the period between chapter 3-5 players should only scout one province ahead of need. In other words...only have one open province at a time and try to keep the number at or below chest limits in the tech tree.
really is decent for folks who are trying to create sustainable, self-sufficient cities that slot well into their FS without dedicating a good deal of time each day to the game. By "good deal of time", I mean things like setting smaller productions to maximize their supplies production in workshops so that they reach their maximum allowed amount as per the Main Hall, and thus utilize the wholesaler to obtain goods to help them cater/negotiate. It's a strategy for the game, but it's not a strategy that appeals to everyone, so encouraging people who want to let the game run as an idle game in the background on their phone/tablet/computer while they write a novel; work; play another, more human-involved game; watch a movie; talk to people via chat/text; etc. and so on - encouraging those players to keep to the parameters recommended by the developers is merely another strategy.

Also the military boost buildings and instants are like a camp shovel, they can get you out quick.....i imagine they can also result in a much deeper hole.
Really, this is a perspective thing. I started using the military boost buildings and they've become a crutch. And that's what I think is meant here - that when you get used to having that boosted health and suddenly your military building peters out and you're back to regular 100% health, it can be a bit of a shock to see your troops decimated in three hits when your cannon fodder had been able to take five or six. Likewise, becoming accustomed to that increase in attack power for mages and archers can leave you with a nasty bit of reality once it wears off and you're back to not being able to take out the enemy battalion in a single blow. It can be devastating to your troops if you have bad terrain and you're up against a lot of units that can decrease your attack power when they attack you when that building boost wears off.

And by getting players accustomed to the "boosted" abilities, it almost guarantees that city space will be needed for the military ancient wonders. And since space is at a premium and there's only three ways to get it, this leaves you with overscouting as an option - meaning you've dug yourself deeper into the hole just by using the boost buildings you crafted in the MA. That's how I understood this point, anyway.
Other than that one point....stay off the orc wall until you get to orcs( over 222 provinces).
If you think you can take the encounters in battle, then by all means, do try. But if your military gets squashed and you don't have orcs and don't want to pay diamonds to solve encounters, well, this one's not really a perspective point. It's just a question of whether one actually can do the thing they're trying to do.
 

Guurt The Destroyer

Well-Known Member
@OIM20
I got the impression that Dew was agreeing with Iyapo1.
@Dew Spinner
Please clarify.

I wasn't sure what Dew was trying to say.

It is written in such a way that I think he is saying that Lyapo1 gave bad advice, but the advice to not over scout by too much is very good advice so it makes more sense that Dew would be agreeing with Lyapo1.

It would be interesting to read an argument that says over scouting is a good idea. I am not sure I could be convinced, but I would still be interested in the points being used to back up that argument.
 

shimmerfly

Well-Known Member
@Guurt The Destroyer Here's what the Wizard says But we know he may be crazy : )

I get so tired of this not overschout whatever thing, just scout as much as you want.
Pre orc this means you will need some decent tournament activity to not get stuck by the orc wall, but beside that it doesnt matter at all.

I have always scouted as much as I can in any city I played, I have never worried about not overschout whatever BS
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to read an argument that says over scouting is a good idea. I am not sure I could be convinced, but I
My number one argument in favor of over scouting is the Dragon Abbey. Mana on demand....the amount of mana is determined by the level of the Abbey and the number of cleared provinces. I have a thing for wonderful wonders.
I actually can't think of a single drawback for over scouting except for the aforementioned pinch point and the need to keep out of ring 11 until you hit chapter 8. I did not think urging caution prior to orcs was bad advice.
But outside of that small part of the game I think players should scout as much as they want.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I wasn't sure what Dew was trying to say.

It is written in such a way that I think he is saying that Lyapo1 gave bad advice, but the advice to not over scout by too much is very good advice so it makes more sense that Dew would be agreeing with Lyapo1.

It would be interesting to read an argument that says over scouting is a good idea. I am not sure I could be convinced, but I would still be interested in the points being used to back up that argument.
Over scouting is an concept that was invented when the orc wall was introduced back in the day.

At that time there was no tournaments so much fewer KP to aquire therefore chapters took a long time, and when orcs where introduced.
As a result many players hit the orc wall at that time of introduction and where unable to de events untill they finally hit the orcs.

As a result there has been a group of players who took "anti overscouting" as a religion and keep propagating it like it's a religion.

These days some people do hit the orc wall before they reach orks, but if you keep scouting but hold about a handfull of provinces in your backpocket for those rare few eventquest where you really need those encounters without an alternative you'll be fine even if you reach that barrier.

Once reached keep scouting, once you unlocked orks and the barrier is no longer a thing then that whole discussion becomes pointless anyway.

Provinces give you several benefits:
  • More expansions which makes your game easier. (except for tournament&spire but thats another discussion)
  • More mana from the dragon abbey
  • More ranking points
  • More orcs from heroes forge (tho that wonder is no longer good for it)
  • More mana from Maze of dark matter
Having fewer unlocked provinces give you less of the above,

Not "overschouting" gives you absolutely 0 benefit, as long as you keep the 5 open provinces rule untill you reach the orks chapter so you can always finish events.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Personally I like underscouting and keeping a small city. People (especially in my fellowship) keep telling me I'm doing it wrong, but it's working for me.

You can always scout and not place the expansions if you want to stay small. I to have an city with 11 available research expansions and 17 available province expansions that I have not placed. I am still scouting tho.

it's not "wrong" if thats the way you like it, but it's not "best practise" from a game efficience standpoint.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
It never ceases to amaze me, the bad advice that is routinely given by the "experts".
Do you have a counterargument? Are you offering an alternative to the advice? You seem to be implying that you know more than those whom you call experts, so please, enlighten us.
 

Gladiola

Well-Known Member
You can always scout and not place the expansions if you want to stay small. I to have an city with 11 available research expansions and 17 available province expansions that I have not placed. I am still scouting tho.

it's not "wrong" if thats the way you like it, but it's not "best practise" from a game efficience standpoint.

I do the scouting and not placing thing too. Currently I have 9 research expansions and 8 province expansions available.

I think that the tournament and Spire battle changes have changed the calculation of game efficiency. It depends on how efficiency is defined.

If efficiency is defined as progressing quickly through chapters, then bigger is better.

If efficiency is defined as accumulating lots of goods, bigger is *probably* better (but you will be using more goods for tournament and Spire).

If efficiency is defined as completing the Spire, events, and scoring above average in the tournament, smaller is probably the most efficient for that. My 25-expansion city completes the Spire, finishes events, contributes meaningfully to FAs, and averages 2500 points in tournaments. I plan to be averaging 3000 points in the next few weeks. The main thing holding me back is the number of provinces I've completed.

Edit: Efficiency could also be defined as spending as little time as possible on the game with the greatest results. Definitely more space is better for that.
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Spire / Tournament ranking system is just whack and bad, but it does not limit your scouting ability.
If your goal is to limit city size to an extreme to beat the spire / tournament formula than just do not place them.

Scouting still has benefits like how much mana you can get from your dragon abbey which with a tiny town will be your main source of mana as you cannot afford a giant plot of mana buildings.

So always scouting is still the best option, but year the tournament formula has created an incentive where it might be beneficial to get the expansions but not place them
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
What did @Iyapo1 say that was 'bad advice'? (And where did they claim to be an expert?)

I'm just going to clarify how their post (the one you quoted) reads to me, so maybe you can tell me where the advice is bad? (I really am curious as to what's being perceived as bad, because I acknowledge that I don't know everything and that I frequently misunderstand things, so I'm trying to clarify the point, not cause a riot like what happened in that other thread over in I&S.)


This is, admittedly, a subjective observation on the surface. But experience has shown that there is truth in it. For example:
  • A crystal province in ring 2 on one of my cities is requiring 120 T1+2 goods for negotiations, and has a squad size of 103. (2 different encounters; only 1 encounter in this province didn't require any goods. All others are T1+2 in addition to supplies and gold.)
  • A steel province in ring 4 on one of my cities currently requires crystal, scrolls, and silk. These items have not yet been researched in that city. I currently only have T1 goods there. So, while this city falls outside the chapter 3-5 window as quoted, it also demonstrates the problem.
  • A marble province on ring 5 in a different city has a squad size of 228 to my 114 - that's upgraded to squad size 8 on the tech tree.
  • An elixir province in ring 5 has a squad size of 430 - that's not open to tourney yet; I still have two encounters unresolved in it.
With that in mind, the advice

really is decent for folks who are trying to create sustainable, self-sufficient cities that slot well into their FS without dedicating a good deal of time each day to the game. By "good deal of time", I mean things like setting smaller productions to maximize their supplies production in workshops so that they reach their maximum allowed amount as per the Main Hall, and thus utilize the wholesaler to obtain goods to help them cater/negotiate. It's a strategy for the game, but it's not a strategy that appeals to everyone, so encouraging people who want to let the game run as an idle game in the background on their phone/tablet/computer while they write a novel; work; play another, more human-involved game; watch a movie; talk to people via chat/text; etc. and so on - encouraging those players to keep to the parameters recommended by the developers is merely another strategy.


Really, this is a perspective thing. I started using the military boost buildings and they've become a crutch. And that's what I think is meant here - that when you get used to having that boosted health and suddenly your military building peters out and you're back to regular 100% health, it can be a bit of a shock to see your troops decimated in three hits when your cannon fodder had been able to take five or six. Likewise, becoming accustomed to that increase in attack power for mages and archers can leave you with a nasty bit of reality once it wears off and you're back to not being able to take out the enemy battalion in a single blow. It can be devastating to your troops if you have bad terrain and you're up against a lot of units that can decrease your attack power when they attack you when that building boost wears off.

And by getting players accustomed to the "boosted" abilities, it almost guarantees that city space will be needed for the military ancient wonders. And since space is at a premium and there's only three ways to get it, this leaves you with overscouting as an option - meaning you've dug yourself deeper into the hole just by using the boost buildings you crafted in the MA. That's how I understood this point, anyway.

If you think you can take the encounters in battle, then by all means, do try. But if your military gets squashed and you don't have orcs and don't want to pay diamonds to solve encounters, well, this one's not really a perspective point. It's just a question of whether one actually can do the thing they're trying to do.
I didn't say Iyapo1 gave any bad advice, you misread my comment, I was agreeing with her.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
Maybe grand prizes from events should come exclusively from the event questlines? Like have enough quest milestones to provide each building if it's a set, or the building plus all 9 artifacts if it's an evolving building. League rewards and the prizes from playing an event can all be extra stuff. Artifacts wouldn't be available from playing an event until after the second base appears, which is usually right around the point where players run out of 'free' currency. This way there's almost no need for luck nor league rewards in order to max out an event's prize, but with the caveat that players would be required to complete an event's quests unless they want to spend enough diamonds to start winning artifacts that way.
 

Gladiola

Well-Known Member
@CrazyWizard Always scouting (scouting beyond the minimum required to progress through chapters) results in paying higher encounter costs in provinces that could have benefited from the advanced scouting cost reduction. It also means that scouting for events takes more time. I will have to wait and see what happens in Woodelves regarding mana production. I have 4 gum trees and a mana plant, nabbed when the library set was accidentally in the Spire, which will help a tiny bit. Hopefully I'll be able to grab some good mana producers from events as well.
 
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