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    Your Elvenar Team

Elvenar = Planet Fitness?

  • Thread starter Deleted User - 3932582
  • Start date

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
Give it up @CrazyWizard, Inno doesn't want you (and players like you) as customers. Looking at you makes the casual players depressed, and depressed people do not spend more on online games, they spend more on alcohol ;)
Quoting myself here, but for some time in the back of my mind I knew that there was another business that operates just like that. And today I bumped into something that triggered it - Elvenar seems to be (or trying to become) Planet Fitness of gaming.

If you didn't get the reference (people outside of North America probably won't), it is a gym chain that is catering to (very) casual gym goers. Well, there is nothing wrong with that, many do. But Planet Fitness does something that no one else does - they aggressively chase out people who train hard. I am not exaggerating - people are getting lectured that "they breath too hard" while exercising, weightlifters are called "lunks" and get ridiculed and outright banned from the gym. No, I am not making this up. You can read about it here: https://slate.com/technology/2011/0...-to-alienate-people-who-love-to-work-out.html. Perhaps something changed there, but it is certainly how it used to work some time ago.

Now, we're not quite there yet with Elvenar. No one is banning players reaching high levels - not yet at least ;) But it seems that a lot of changes recently are specifically targeting high-level players, and squeezing them out. I've got a feeling that high level players are not really welcome. The word "fanatic" was applied more than once to such players. They want to make life easier to more casual players - that's fine. But why would they pair that up with making life more difficult for more advanced players? Outside of making Elvenar a "no judgement zone" where all players are equally casual, that is. Is that the future?

Discuss ;)
 

Deleted User - 4646370

Guest
Yes... in my chapter 12 city I already feel having a harder time in Spire than when I was in chapter 8...
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
It is the usual overcompensation that happens when the pendulum swings too far in one direction. The differences in this game before and after last year's Phoenix event have gotten drastic. And now they are overdoing the compensation for that and the brown bear. But I don't think Inno is too worried about chasing off the truly hardcore players, because those types are not also generally big spenders.

I am somewhere in between casual and hardcore, some people call it casualcore. I check in several times a day and I spend a small amount of money on the game. I don't push the limits of the tournaments and I don't complete the Spire every week, but I could if I wanted to.
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
I don't know WHAT Planet Fitness locations they're talking about, but ours has never been like that. :oops:
Perhaps they mellowed a bit in the recent years, I wouldn't know. But a few years ago the description in the article would be pretty accurate, plenty of people in the lifting community could confirm all the way across the US. Heck, they were running national ad campaigns on that...
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
If long term players are spenders then there is no reason to get them to leave. But if they are not, or only average spenders, there may be some motivation to have them depart.

Imagine if it took 50 years to reach and complete the last chapter. That would, given the increase length of each chapter, probably be around 35 chapters, max. Not that it matters how many there would be, but that if reaching the end and completing the last chapter is outside the length of time (in years) almost all players are willing to spend completing all the chapters, then producing new content for the few who might actually complete the tech tree would be counter-productive. If those players do not contribute revenues to cover the cost of the new chapter, you would want to get them to spend more money (I mean those few who would stick around for the whole thing) or to leave.

Thus, if the long term players spend real money sufficient to justify adding another chapter, Inno will add another chapter. But if they don't it would be in Inno's best interest to find a way to get the few and rare players who would spend 50 years on the game, to quit. If you think about it, each chapter has a set number of players and the number of players who will continue to the next grows smaller and smaller. Eventually you don't have enough reaching that last chapter to justify creating that last chapter. It would be better to lose the revenues of the few who might get there than to spend the money needed to develop that chapter.

Under that scenario Inno would be as Planet Fitness has been reported to be. And it would be in keeping with Planet Fitness's business model of cheap cost and little to no encouragement actually workout.

AJ
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
you would want to get them to spend more money (I mean those few who would stick around for the whole thing) or to leave.
Not sure why would you want them to leave under these circumstances. There is a big difference between not focusing (e.g. not developing new content), and actively pushing people out. The reason Planet Fitness did what they did was not because "gym rats" were not profitable by themselves, or because they didn't want to invest into more equipment and heavier lifting weights. For better or worse, they did that to appeal to people who are not fit so they wouldn't feel "intimidated". It worked well for PF, but it's a shitty approach to personal development if you ask me.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
I guess this begs the question......
After you finish all current chapters .........
a) what is there really to spend $$$ on ????? and
b) what then is there to keep you here, interested ??????

(b) I would guess "friends" will be 1 reason, along with the hope for new content, but these
players should be powerfull enough and knowledgeable enuff to crush most new events,
mainly cause they can't be too hard for newer players, thus easier for older players....

(a) I'm really not sure there is much to spend on, unless all you care about is some pretty
building or always crushing Spire/Tourn, for whatever reason you have to do that.....

If Elvenar mirrors many current company edicts, then there seems to be a culture where
that 30 yr employee that retires, is a lost breed. Most companies will find ways to rotate
workers in the 3-6 years range. In that sense, the biggest "spenders" are prolly in the CH4 - CH10
range, with some people willing to pay $$$ right away in CH1.... You need to "hook" those
newer players, so that they both stick around and spend $$$ into the system.... as they really
are the best demographic to get revenue from.
BrinD
 

DeletedUser19458

Guest
After you finish all current chapters .........
a) what is there really to spend $$$ on ????? and
b) what then is there to keep you here, interested ??????

I used to think this would be fun events and tournaments, but ... Inno has killed them both now. Events are just mundane these days and tournaments I still hold my opinion but penalizing me for buying land and upgrading AW's doesn't sit well in my books. Bad enough it's done in the Spire.
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
After you finish all current chapters .........
a) what is there really to spend $$$ on ????? and
b) what then is there to keep you here, interested ??????

Prefacing this with info that I would be one of the "whales" people refer to ;)
a) Moving past new chapter obstacles that just get frustrating, new premium expansions, events, spire, premium culture
b) The way they keep piling things on it has gotten like a part time job. There are those goals that I've had all along. Then there is Spire and/or Tournament 7 days a week. I've always also liked events and was one of those who were duped by Inno encouraging event buildings to be regularly updated. Wish I still had some I spent to get and then I swapped out :( I also recently quit top FS and joined my small FS where I have family. It is a good way to stay connected in one more small way. We also have a bunch of newer players who I'm hopefully helping learn the game and grow. It is going well and I am starting to enjoying the game again instead of the drudgery of keeping up with other people's expectations.

BUT, it really stunk having a sale on expansions while knowing a FA is on the way. (More space needed) I flatly said no to our kids who I buy diamonds for and I had to advise others that it may not be wise to buy premium expansions since they will soon make the tournament more difficult and already do make the Spire more difficult. I have spent $$ on this game for years but at this point I have a hard time encouraging anybody to spend, like for room to add AW's, when it is becoming spending real $$ to make the game harder. Guessing Inno thinks that will semi-force more diamond spending. I'm retired from Accounting and there is just no way I can make that add up :mad:

@MinMax Gamer Totally agree that it seems like Elvenar is headed toward top players looking like "I pick things up. I put things down" :rolleyes: Seems like everything they change anymore punishes long-term top players.
 
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KarlD

Well-Known Member
I kind of welcome them pushing me out. I spend way too much time here and I'm finding I don't really have anymore challenges. I can do about as much tournament as I care to and I complete the Spire each week. I'm in a gold trophy and ten chest fs so I'm getting the full benefits from those. I don't especially care about ranking points anymore. I'm never going to be anywhere near #1 and it's not the type of game where I get more powerful so I can attack my neighbors and take all their stuff to get even more powerful. If I'm doing as much Spire and tournament as I want already I don't really need more goods or troops. It seems almost pointless to bother doing the research in order to do more upgrades that will just allow me to accumulate more goods that I don't use. For me the motivation of growing my city is so I can accomplish things I couldn't before. I'm looking forward to the new tournament system so that it's not so tedious autofighting a gazillion fights and it seems like it will be a challenge opening all those tournament chests. We will see how that all works out
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Not sure why would you want them to leave under these circumstances. There is a big difference between not focusing (e.g. not developing new content), and actively pushing people out. The reason Planet Fitness did what they did was not because "gym rats" were not profitable by themselves, or because they didn't want to invest into more equipment and heavier lifting weights. For better or worse, they did that to appeal to people who are not fit so they wouldn't feel "intimidated". It worked well for PF, but it's a shitty approach to personal development if you ask me.

In a game where new chapters have been added regularly and new chapters are expected the "content" is the context of development. In other words, while actually developing new content is, as you say , different, not meeting peoples expectations is an active way to discourage them. Planet Fitness may have been more aggressive in their actions but in a game where one waits for what is, in essence, promised (that we have the expectations implies a promise based upon past performance), not fulfilling the promise is an active way to discourage (i.e. push) people out. You may be right that Planet Fitness is much more aggressive at it, and I'm not saying Inno has any plans to do it, but if it did one way to actively discourage long term players is to stop creating new content.

I'm not the one who would want them to leave, but if owned Inno and I'd always ask myself at what point will the road to "success" (finishing the last chapter) be so long that most players quit before reaching it? At some point people have a burn out level, even in this game. If the burn out level for 99.99 percent of players is 25 chapters (7 years, let's say) and the cost of the 26th chapter is X, you can only justify the creation of that chapter if it brings in the revenues to pay for it. So let's say only 1000 players will ever access the 26th chapter and of those 1000 players only 100 are regular payers. The cost of having the chapter then exceeds the revenues generated by having it and thus, if you can find a way to reduce the number of players at that level you no longer have to consider their desire for the 26th chapter and/or their complaints about when it will be added. Nobody is currently complaining about the delay of chapter 18 because 17 comes first. In the same way if nobody gets to the mythical chapter 26 (or reaches the end of 25) then you don't have to have chapter 26 and thus the cost of developing chapter 26. It's all dependent upon measuring the need and if you can reduce the need for the chapter by removing (i.e. discouraging) players at the high end from needing it (no one who is not playing needs it, right?), then it's a winning combination.

In addition, if the game gets to chapter 25 and that becomes known to be the last chapter those who are in chapter 23, 24 or so will "push" on to say they "finished" the tech tree (which may be a badge of honor among some). I was once in a city building game in which having 1024 cities was the max you could have. I still remember the day I finally reached that magic number. It's not everybody's cup of tea but "finishing" is mine. What I'm saying is that knowing where the end "really" is may motivate a few to press on to get there whereas knowing more and more chapters will just keep coming may actually cause some people to leave.



It is a good way to stay connected in one more small way. We also have a bunch of newer players who I'm hopefully helping learn the game and grow. It is going well and I am starting to enjoying the game again instead of the drudgery of keeping up with other people's expectations.

BUT, it really stunk having a sale on expansions while knowing a FA is on the way. (More space needed) I flatly said no to our kids who I buy diamonds for and I had to advise others that it may not be wise to buy premium expansions since they will soon make the tournament more difficult and already do make the Spire more difficult. I have spent $$ on this game for years but at this point I have a hard time encouraging anybody to spend, like for room to add AW's, when it is becoming spending real $$ to make the game harder. Guessing Inno thinks that will semi-force more diamond spending. I'm retired from Accounting and there is just no way I can make that add up :mad:

One of the things that you constantly notice is reference to how it used to be....usually better than it is now. New players, of course, don't have to contend with that as they enter the game as it is now, and thus the difficulty of the Spire, etc.... will not seem to them anything more than "how it used to be" in a few years. If you had come upon the game when you started as it is now, would you feel the same way about spending $$? Maybe you would, maybe not. But one thing is probable, if you reflect many long term players the revenues from those long term players will be dropping -- which means at some point there won't be enough players from the pool to justify making another chapter for the long term players who have reached the end of the line.

And, of course, changing your "role" in the game may, as you discovered and remind us, change your attitude about playing the game too. I was pleased to see you comment about that since I too like taking small to mid level players and helping them grow. That too is part of the game.

AJ
 

Deleted User - 4646370

Guest
at what point will the road to "success" (finishing the last chapter) be so long that most players quit before reaching it? At some point people have a burn out level, even in this game. If the burn out level for 99.99 percent of players is 25 chapters (7 years, let's say)
There is a way to make so that "the road to "success"" never becomes too long. Keep giving ways to make chapters easier, and balance new chapters accordingly (so that end-gamers don't instantly end the new chapters.)
(This requires an exponential growth in chapter difficulty and in game rewards, see spoiler below.)
Let's oversimplify it and consider we can quantify a chapter difficulty by a variable D and benefits you can get from the game by a variable B, so that the time it takes to do a chapter is given by D/B. D depends only on the chapter while B depends on how much Inno gives in tournaments/events/...
Let's call t the time they want the last chapter to take for end-gamers when they release it and T th time they want the whole game to take for a new player.
For a chapter x, let's call d(x) its difficulty, D(x) the total difficulty of all chapters up to chapter x (so D(x) = D(x-1) + d(x)) and B(x) = the value of B when chapter x is released.
We have for all x, t = d(x)/B(x) and T = D(x)/B(x).
So D(x)/d(x) = T/t, and then D(x-1) = D(x) - d(x) = d(x).(T/t - 1).
But also D(x-1) = d(x-1).T/t so that d(x) = d(x-1).T/(T-t), which means d(x) increases exponentially with x. As B(x) is proportional to d(x), it increases exponentially with x too.
And, that's what Inno used to do. In the beginning (2015) there were only 24 KP per day, and then (2016) they added Tournaments so that you can get the KP for earlier chapters faster. At the same time, they made so that these KP don't help a lot with later chapters because you're mostly limited by guest race goods, up to chapter 10 where you're limited on the amount of guest race goods you can get whatever you do
Then (2018) they gave PP so that players can do these chapters faster, and make new chapters costing a lot of PP to do these if you want to use them (cf chapter 14 portal requiring almost 100% PP for each upgrade.)
They continued increasing PP supply (by events and then Spire, 2019) to make even these chapters not that hard with PP, and do chapters where PP aren't usable for everything.
And, to avoid this forced teck lock in the beginning of chapter 15 (and 16) for newer players that will do them in the future, they gave time instants in Spire multiplayer,... perhaps planning to do then a chapter 17 reminiscent of chapter 8 mushroom farms which would be very costly to use time instants in, and a chapter 18 reminiscent of chapter 11 fields where time instants are unusable (continuous production) ? Note that they also made so that seeds aren't time-boostable.
But in 2020 they decided rewards went too high, and nerfed them.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
There is a way to make so that "the road to "success"" never becomes too long. Keep giving ways to make chapters easier, and balance new chapters accordingly (so that end-gamers don't instantly end the new chapters.)
(This requires an exponential growth in chapter difficulty and in game rewards, see spoiler below.)

Let's oversimplify it and consider we can quantify a chapter difficulty by a variable D and benefits you can get from the game by a variable B, so that the time it takes to do a chapter is given by D/B. D depends only on the chapter while B depends on how much Inno gives in tournaments/events/...
Let's call t the time they want the last chapter to take for end-gamers when they release it and T th time they want the whole game to take for a new player.
For a chapter x, let's call d(x) its difficulty, D(x) the total difficulty of all chapters up to chapter x (so D(x) = D(x-1) + d(x)) and B(x) = the value of B when chapter x is released.
We have for all x, t = d(x)/B(x) and T = D(x)/B(x).
So D(x)/d(x) = T/t, and then D(x-1) = D(x) - d(x) = d(x).(T/t - 1).
But also D(x-1) = d(x-1).T/t so that d(x) = d(x-1).T/(T-t), which means d(x) increases exponentially with x. As B(x) is proportional to d(x), it increases exponentially with x too.

I like the analysis. You are probably right that if the rewards keep up with the costs it may be that players will continue. But as the length of the chapters increases, as you note, eventually the length exceeds the length of time a player lives. (LOL, really, chapter 100215 will take 107 years to complete!). In any case, I'm willing to bet the rate of attrition is not just in the game but in life itself and if Inno attempts to just keep adding chapters my original point will eventually come to pass. The attrition rate will be high enough that the number of the last chapter will be so small it doesn't even make sense to develop that chapter. The removal of the last chapter (at whatever point it may be) may actually extend the "life" of some players as they want to "finish" the game. Adding another chapter at that point may actually hasten some players leaving.

Thus, while your point is well taken and it is possible for Inno to add enough value to keep players going along, the attrition rate will continue along some kind of curve as well. I'm betting, like I said, at about chapter 25 - 35 no new chapters will be added.

AJ
 
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